csspecs 1,987 Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 There are also possible events where you would want to be able to shoot through several walls... Example: In the event that the home invader does not stand in the middle of the room waiting to be shot. But rather goes for cover behind several walls and fires at you... Being able to shoot through the obstacles to eliminate the threat would be safer for everyone than allowing him to fire dozens of wild shots at you (all of which will likely be pistol rounds, as statistically they are more common). Coolish! I've been looking for a good reason to press my 308 into HD use. Honestly it depends on how your dwelling is setup.. My current living situation puts most likely intruders ducking for cover behind a 8 inch poured concrete wall and me with nothing but drywall.. Even .308 is questionable. So standing my ground would be unwise in that location. Take a look at your home from both sides and figure out if its easy enough for an intruder to run away rather than getting cornered.. And if they chose to be stupid what will they most likely hide behind? Its also not bad to figure out what is behind your most likely HD shooting lanes.. If its your child's room than the risk of over penetration is more worth fearing. If its several heavy walls leading to a hill side, why not have some more power? And yeah the odds of having a shootout in your home is unlikely. But if you have a HD gun then you already are planning for the less likely, might as well go all the way. Around my area bean bags are not thought a good idea since mostly we have meth heads and bath salt addicts who like eating faces.. I prefer not to get eaten or have my skin sewn into clothing.. It comes down to your area, your dwelling, and your own moral/legal views. I won't likely be using bird shot as I don't think it will work in my home. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 Yeah, messy wounds, huh... http://www.gainesville.com/article/20120103/ARTICLES/120109912 Or this... http://m.vvdailypress.com/articles/woman-28450-face-injured.html She survived a freaking HEADSHOT with it, people. This is really what you're planning on using when in a defensive situation with someone possibly returning fire? Nice thought...especially when it turns out the other guy has a .45. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 If the situation calls for less-than-lethal means of suppression of an attack, how can you logically introduce a firearm into the equation? A good civil court attorney would DESTROY a "law-abiding citizen". Call me crazy, but I prefer to enjoy my hard-earned money instead of it going to some low-life and his family because he chose the wrong house and I made a bad decision... I don't have kids yet, may not ever have them, but even if I did, I'd keep the same load-out. Will the projectile over-penetrate and ventilate my water heater? You betcha, could I also end up ventilating my Nova in the garage or our big-screen? Abso-fucking-lutely! Thing is though, if a bad guy is in my house and threatening my life, the police will find him where I found him. He won't be limping down the road with a superficial flesh-wound... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sick_role 4 Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 all i have to add to this, is that guy was awesome and I'd love to hang out with him. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 http://www.vvdailypress.com/news/hurt-28289-partiers-shotgun.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/01/08/man-25-arrested-after-being-treated-at-er-for-birdshot-wounds/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Asmodeus 13 Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 I found a way I could trust bird shot completely. Cut shells. I fired one through the S12 yesterday at a beer keg that stopped a bunch of 00BK. It plowed a 3" hole through the bottom of the keg and detonated. Man the hit was so audible. WHUMP, and the whole keg jumped. From 35 yds to boot. 00bk was fired from half that distance and at the side. It also stopped some of the 9mm I fired at it from that distance. If I could get them to cycle... I could say I'd have no qualms about using birdshot for HD. Lol! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WigSplitter 0 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Nice vid good to know Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 There are also possible events where you would want to be able to shoot through several walls... Example: In the event that the home invader does not stand in the middle of the room waiting to be shot. But rather goes for cover behind several walls and fires at you... Being able to shoot through the obstacles to eliminate the threat would be safer for everyone than allowing him to fire dozens of wild shots at you (all of which will likely be pistol rounds, as statistically they are more common). Coolish! I've been looking for a good reason to press my 308 into HD use. Honestly it depends on how your dwelling is setup.. My current living situation puts most likely intruders ducking for cover behind a 8 inch poured concrete wall and me with nothing but drywall.. Even .308 is questionable. So standing my ground would be unwise in that location. Take a look at your home from both sides and figure out if its easy enough for an intruder to run away rather than getting cornered.. And if they chose to be stupid what will they most likely hide behind? Its also not bad to figure out what is behind your most likely HD shooting lanes.. If its your child's room than the risk of over penetration is more worth fearing. If its several heavy walls leading to a hill side, why not have some more power? And yeah the odds of having a shootout in your home is unlikely. But if you have a HD gun then you already are planning for the less likely, might as well go all the way. Around my area bean bags are not thought a good idea since mostly we have meth heads and bath salt addicts who like eating faces.. I prefer not to get eaten or have my skin sewn into clothing.. It comes down to your area, your dwelling, and your own moral/legal views. I won't likely be using bird shot as I don't think it will work in my home. I agree 100%. Use what is best for your given situation and as AtlSaiga mentioned, layered defense is the key. The first thing I noticed about my house when buying it were safe lanes of fire for the front and back doors and it being virtually impossible to hit any innocents when firing from the upstairs bedroom area. Add an alarm, a downstairs dog, and an upstairs dog (and a couple of surprises) and it would be pretty tough for anyone to catch me unaware. I actually could use my 308 safely but don't really believe that much power is needed. As I stated in my first post, I don't normally use the 12 as my primary HD either. Agree or not, I'm most comfortable with pistol caliber carbines for HD and use mine more than any other weapon for such duty. The 223 comes in second. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 It's hard to beat a carbine as a battle rifle... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 It's hard to beat a carbine as a battle rifle... Like most people, I wouldn't want to use a pistol caliber carbine for much over 100 yards. But for HD they are the ideal setup, to me at least. Negligible recoil, lower flash than the big guns, not as loud, plenty of rounds, very accurate at the intended distance. As has been mentioned in the thread, accuracy is the key in defending yourself and I've always been more consistently accurate with my Ruger PC4 than anything else. I like them so much that I just ordered a Hi-Point 995 TS to supplement the Ruger. Oops! Did I just admit to buying a Hi-Point? Oh, well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sian 14 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 I found a way I could trust bird shot completely. Cut shells. I fired one through the S12 yesterday at a beer keg that stopped a bunch of 00BK. It plowed a 3" hole through the bottom of the keg and detonated. Man the hit was so audible. WHUMP, and the whole keg jumped. From 35 yds to boot. 00bk was fired from half that distance and at the side. It also stopped some of the 9mm I fired at it from that distance. If I could get them to cycle... I could say I'd have no qualms about using birdshot for HD. Lol! I'm sure cut shells will go over really well in the civil case the "victim's" family files against you too! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Dammit! Everyone keeps saying what I wanted to say before I said it, or something like that... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Asmodeus 13 Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) I'm sure cut shells will go over really well in the civil case the "victim's" family files against you too! Oh I'm sorry. You seem to have my state confused with California or New Jersey. Not a criminal shooting. No civil case. Try again? Edited June 14, 2012 by Asmodeus 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) i've got both in my HD mags. First is blackcload, then 000buck Alternating in each mag. either way your talking 1500fps+ of shite coming your way. If I need more I'll have my 9mm loaded with HP's ready to go. I dont plan on just firing one shot in a home invasion situation. I plan on dumping a full mag before I stop. Whats the best way to prove you were scared for your life then pulling the trigger till there was no more rounds to shoot. Edited June 16, 2012 by montec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Shoot until the threat is neutralized. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
preparehandbook 326 Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 Yeah, a tough guy could take any of these birdshot wounds andkeep going..... Or for those who don't mind a little gore (ok, a lot of gore)..... NOT FOR THE EASILY GROSSED OUT: 12 ga birdshot: http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/347109d1332437159-firearms-gunshot-wound-deaths-part-ii-29.jpg 12 ga birdshot: http://static.flickr.com/12/69269440_bc5f38f35b.jpg?v=0 410 shotgun, birdshot: http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/18968d1214343781-flare-gun-wound-fired-homemade-12-gauge-filled-screws-flare-gun-wound-fired-homemade-12-gauge-shotgun-cartridge-filled-screws.jpg 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ironhead7544 35 Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I always thought the birdshot would work just fine at close range. Did a study on it some years ago and found a lot of stopping failures. Made a nasty wound but the prep did not stop what he was doing. The cut shell would work but we need a factory version. One like a Glaser slug. Until then I will stick with OO buck or #4 buck low recoil loads. When I was a fed, we used the #4 buck for a while but switched back to OO. It was found the #4 did not have enough penetration at over 15 yards. The #4 would still be good for the house, however. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) I appreciate the video (and others by that guy), and encourage people to analyse the carachteristics of themselves and their living situation, and the likeliest threats. The video can help to encourage proper respect for the safe handling of birdshot. For me, I want the most versatile, and instantly effective firearm with the least risk to non-aggressors. Birdshot fails on certainty and on versatility. Remember, for HD and LE use, Stopping the threat is the point, not killing. We all know that birdshot can stop and can kill, the problem is that it is not certain to do so every time. There are plenty of instances of actual deflections off of ribcages. also, oblique angles like side shots with the arm in the way will not reach vitals. It will give the guy a very bad day. Most every hunter knows of someone who picked up a few pellets of birdshot from reckless hunting and carries them around as a safety reminder. I met a guy from Georgia who crashed on our spare bunk for a few days last summer. When he was about 12, his brother negligently shot him in the navel with a birdshot from a long barrel 12 gauge at about 11', fortunately he survived. The guy was in his late 30s and still had a sort of hole where his navel had been (There was scar tissue or maybe membrane about where the fibrin layer should be, but it wasn't quite skin), that had several surgeries. He lost a lot of intestines (and I think part of his liver and a kidney, but I don't remember clearly), and had pellets all over his body as far as his shoulder. The pellets started in about a 12" circle centered on his navel, but they kind of wander around and sometimes work their way to the surface. His various doctors could never agree about whether it was better to cut them out because of the lead or just leave them. The 20+ year old wounds were pretty sobering to look at. From what he had said, it sounds like the bulk of the pellets penetrated about 3-4" at his navel with no ribs in the way. The fringe of the spread was on his lower ribcage and none of those pellets reached his lungs. This shot "should have killed him" it did 'stop' him (a non agressive 12 year old). Any buckshot would have torn out his spine. I don't expect that any shots in the panic of a fight would be as tidy as my placement at a range. Any buck shot will instantly cripple a person wherever they are shot. Birdshot can do so, and will disable that limb, cause pain, shock, and massive blood loss. You can carry what you want but I am going to continue to follow the practical testing by the FBI That is why #4 buck or #1 are my choices. The FBI data is compelling. I have to parrot Box o' Truth on this one. If it is dangerous enough to stop bad guys it is dangerous to others as well. This is unavoidable. http://www.theboxotr...m/docs/bot3.htm, however his demonstrations of .410 is flawed, because available .410 ammo has improved greatly since his testing. See also here http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm Normal #4 Buck loads are pretty close ballistically to dropping 27 .22lr rounds into a 4" circle. That does the job and penetrates a lot less walls than OOB. (#4B =~3 walls, OOB =some pellets went through 4-5 walls, some stopped at 3...) People keep talking about across-the-room distances. That is great if you can plan out the attack on your house so that everyone is at just the right range where your birdshot is effective. i.e. close enough to rush you, but not so far that the round is innefective or will pick up near by people in the edge of your shot cloud. A car door will stop birdshot, but not buck, so if someone is shooting at you from a car, you are out of luck. I want to be safe as possible for my apartment neighbors, while still capable of shooting a drunken assailant in a streetfight/rape/whatever outside my apartment. I also want enough punch to be able to stop a vehicle that is doing a drive-by, which both seem as probable as a home invasion in which I wake up in time to grab my gun. I don't ever expect to need to intervene in any dangerous situation with a gun, but I want flexibility if that ever happens. Birdshot doesn't have that flexibility. I have had to tell neighbors in the middle of DV brawls that I am calling the cops, and felt safer from their crazy for having a CCW on me. To me, waking up to find them or their drunken friends trashing my car as retaliation, and that transitioning to an assault on me personally from about 60 feet away seems far more probable a scenario than me waking up at 4 am, finding a burglar in by bedroom and grabbing my shotgun before he crosses the room. I know hiding and waiting is more sensible in each of those scenarios, but I don't want that to be my only choice. I sat through a trial in which a murderer killed the husband and was chasing the wife. A neighbor saved her by holding the killer at bay from across the yard fence at around 50 feet away.The rescuer's weapon was a home-made steel mace, that would have required a face to face confrontation with a huge guy, on a lot of drugs, birdshot would have required getting as close as 20'. If I were ever in that neighbor's position I want to be able to control the situation from as far away as possible. #4 buck is effective at 90' or in hugging range. That's practical versatility. Edited June 21, 2012 by GunFun 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
k_ritala 2 Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 This is from just the other day, and is why I keep mine loaded up with 00 buck. http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2012/06/would-be-burglar-shot-in-the-face/ June 19, 2012 at 10:02 PM Tacoma man shoots would-be burglar in the face Posted by Alexa Vaughn A Tacoma man shot a home invader in the face as he tried to climb in through a window Tuesday evening, said Tacoma Police Department spokesman Sgt. Mark Fulghum. The resident of the home called 911 as he heard someone trying to break in on either the back or side of his house, Fulghum said. He then grabbed a shotgun and upon seeing the man climb through a window, fired birdshot pellets that sprayed the man’s face. “The suspect then fled, but he didn’t make it very far before he collapsed,” Fulghum said. The would-be home invader was then taken to St. Joseph Medical Center in Tacoma with significant, but not life-threatening injuries. He’ll be taken into custody after he recovers from the worst of the injury, Fulghum said. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Wow, some of you are going to load your self defense shotgun with birdshot? It's about knockdown power, and penetrating the vital organs (brain or pumphouse). When you don't supply one of those then you are relying on pain compliance. A very common mistake is thinking that everyone will be shocked, scared, or in a great deal of pain when they are shot. GunFun speaks the truth, there is a reason that the military, FBI and LE don't load their shotguns with birdshot. I'm fairly certain they did some research. Good luck when Mr. PCP runs into your home and his body no longer recognizes pain. Make sure you wear a mask..................Don't wanna get your face eaten off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Anathoth 4 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Yeah, a tough guy could take any of these birdshot wounds andkeep going..... Or for those who don't mind a little gore (ok, a lot of gore)..... NOT FOR THE EASILY GROSSED OUT: 12 ga birdshot: http://www.documenti...-part-ii-29.jpg 12 ga birdshot: http://static.flickr.com/12/69269440_bc5f38f35b.jpg?v=0 410 shotgun, birdshot: http://www.documenti...lled-screws.jpg I'm not certain what these images are intended to show. That birdshot can seriously maim or kill? I don't think that is in question, at least not by most. But I think the danger is that the average person may look at these wounds in photographs, terrible as they are, and not have the context to realize the narrow set of circumstances under which such a result is likely to occur. GunFun pretty much covered it. There are a lot of very knowledgeable, objective people with the FBI, IWBA, etc who have made careers out of determining effective loadings. A little research into their reasoning and findings is a very worthwhile read. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) The home-brew wax-slug pseudo glasers do have some potential, but I won't use anything like that for HD unless it is commercially made out of something more temperature stable than wax. I have seen some European Ad-Copy for some frangible slugs by Dupleks that may work similarly. That is about the only way I see birdshot being a sure thing. Perhaps a fully enclosed "shot capsule" of plastic instead of a shot cup, filled with birdshot? It would make one heck of a dead-blow hammer, and would have less potential for ricochets and over-penetration. I'd buy some of those. Oh and as always, the gun you have beats the one you don't. If you have a shotgun with birdshot in hand, that is better than the #4 buck in your range box. I keep a proven mag of #4B in my night stand and snap it in first thing when I get back from the range, so there is never any chance to get caught short and have to make do. Edited June 22, 2012 by GunFun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 It's nice to see this thread turn towards the more intelligent side of things... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
preparehandbook 326 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Yeah, a tough guy could take any of these birdshot wounds andkeep going..... Or for those who don't mind a little gore (ok, a lot of gore)..... NOT FOR THE EASILY GROSSED OUT: 12 ga birdshot: http://www.documenti...-part-ii-29.jpg 12 ga birdshot: http://static.flickr.com/12/69269440_bc5f38f35b.jpg?v=0 410 shotgun, birdshot: http://www.documenti...lled-screws.jpg I'm not certain what these images are intended to show. That birdshot can seriously maim or kill? I don't think that is in question, at least not by most. But I think the danger is that the average person may look at these wounds in photographs, terrible as they are, and not have the context to realize the narrow set of circumstances under which such a result is likely to occur. GunFun pretty much covered it. There are a lot of very knowledgeable, objective people with the FBI, IWBA, etc who have made careers out of determining effective loadings. A little research into their reasoning and findings is a very worthwhile read. everything involving ballistics and meat is a bit of a crapshoot. I've personally seen people take multiple hits with potent rounds and still been up and moving, I also had a coworker shot with a .22 short who crumpled and died on the spot. Those photos show devastating birdshot wounds that incapacitated and/or killed at indoor shooting distances. here's what I've taken from it all: .45 acp tends to stop people all out of proportion to it's ballistics buckshot works wonders the big suckers (8mm mauser, .308, 30 06) usually work... usually people can sometimes soak up a crazy amount of damage people often succumb to small anounts of damage All told.... I don't use birdshot for home defense, I would in a pinch though. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted June 26, 2012 Report Share Posted June 26, 2012 everything involving ballistics and meat is a bit of a crapshoot. I've personally seen people take multiple hits with potent rounds and still been up and moving, I also had a coworker shot with a .22 short who crumpled and died on the spot. Those photos show devastating birdshot wounds that incapacitated and/or killed at indoor shooting distances. here's what I've taken from it all: .45 acp tends to stop people all out of proportion to it's ballistics buckshot works wonders the big suckers (8mm mauser, .308, 30 06) usually work... usually people can sometimes soak up a crazy amount of damage people often succumb to small anounts of damage All told.... I don't use birdshot for home defense, I would in a pinch though. Quoted just because it deserves a second read and a lot of consideration! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 26, 2012 Report Share Posted June 26, 2012 You can prove a .22lr fully capable of killing a man, I wouldn't recomend it as a home defense round. I keep a mag of 10 with 3" 00 buck. Overpenetration isn't a issue 80%of the time as the house is made with cinder blocks, there is the stray event of a window, but I still can't see it going into a neighbors house. YMMV Quote Link to post Share on other sites
preparehandbook 326 Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 I have thin walls and close neighbors so I wouldn't let a .308 fly if I didn't have to, but I'll risk buckshot. Has anyone here heard any newstory about overpenetration during defense? I've read a lot of accounts of "negligient discharges" going through walls and hitting "bystanders" but many were very suspicious (a recent incident in which a man standing in his living room "cleaning" his 30-06 "accidentally" shot through a wall and hit his wife (who was sitting on the toilet) right between the eyes.... Oh, and she anounced she was divorcing him 15 minutes prior. What I haven't heard of in IRL is a person shooting at an intruder/assailant and accidentall hitting a bystander, not saying it couldn't happen, just haven't heard of an actual event. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 In all reality, the odds of someone shooting a round off at a certain moment in time, negligent or not, and another person just happening by the spot in the wall where the round penetrates at the exact SAME time are pretty astronomical. It CAN happen though. Any given Sunday... The thing is, I know what is beyond my target, a brick wall, and hundreds of yards of land. I mean, yeah, there's a trailer park about 50 yards behind my house, thing is though, at the angle that I will be shooting at, if the round makes it through the brick, it's going over the trailers. If I end up shooting at a more horizontal angle, I will be ventilating my hot water heater, ain't no way a .223 or 0 Buck going through that AND a brick wall! Know your surroundings, move so that your target has a clear fire bearing behind it. We, as the residents of our dwellings, KNOW our living quarters the guy who is breaking in does not. That gives any one of us the ultimate advantage of ambush. Being ambushed is hard to plan for and it usually ends up badly for the person or persons ambushed... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
moose421 0 Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 I have learned a lot of good points and information on this thread. Thank you to all and the calm and collected manor in which you have all presenteded. I think I would take the FBI and military loads when I set up for HD. As for getting sued by the scum bags family, well sucks to be them. In Wisconsin, where I live we now have the castle law. Which means when they break in, I can defend my family and I with leathal force and not have to worry about law suits or jail time. Kim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.