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Castalia

Bird shot for home defence video

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I think birdshot would be more of a death sentence than buckshot if the recipient actually lived long enough to go to the ER. Seems like it would be extremely hard to stop the bleeding with all of those small holes. If they were gutshot, they would likely get infection as well. I have always been an advocate of birdshot when the potential for injuring/killing unintended targets exists within the home.

 

The first time I shot a 5 gallon bucket with birshot.... I knew it was GTG for HD.

My thoughts exactly and great vid.

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There are always things to consider when choosing a home defense load. One thing to consider when choosing a shotgun as your HD weapon is what are potential assailants likely to be wearing? In the warmer climates, loose fitting clothes will be common, though at night they may still wear a light weight jacket for protection or to hide their identity. In colder climates, they will have heavier clothing to keep warm. Both of those types of clothing present significant problems to bird shot. Loose clothing greatly decelerates the shot because the loose fitting clothes will be pushed by the shot as opposed to going through it, greatly decelerating the shot, T-shirts being a general exception to this rule because they are so loosely sewn. Cold weather clothing is generally thick and has multiple layers, causing the same problem with loose clothes on the outer layers, and just plain having more material to penetrate before even getting to the surface of the skin.

 

Next is "stopping power". I'm not a fan of that term, as your target can only feel as much force as you feel as recoil when you pull the trigger. Therefore, more trauma translates to more "stopping power". Birdshot causes very little trauma to humans. I remember shooting a Coyote from 20' with bird shot in its head from the front, it jumped and started to run, so I shot again, and when it was down I had to shoot it once more from point blank to end its suffering. If it took that much to kill a coyote from a 20" turkey gun with #6 shot, I can't imagine a human taking any less. The heavier the shot is, the better the retained energy is, thus more trauma is caused.

 

If you are in a situation where gunplay is even an option, there is nothing else but reducing the threat to you or your family's lives. Being able to reduce a threat as fast as possible without allowing them to react or take retaliatory action is of utmost importance. In any home defense scenario that you are using a shotgun as your primary HD weapon, I would strongly advise going with nothing less than #4 shot.

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There are pros and cons to using both. Heres my idea, sphere's leave empty spaces when they stack up in the shell. Why not take a buck shot shell and fill the gaps with bird shot? I'd like to see some video tests for that.

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There are pros and cons to using both. Heres my idea, sphere's leave empty spaces when they stack up in the shell. Why not take a buck shot shell and fill the gaps with bird shot? I'd like to see some video tests for that.

 

there are several loads like that.

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Yeah, and they suck almost as bad as birdshot. Keep it simple folks! It's literally worked for centuries. A white tail is the same basic weight of a man, I highly doubt that an emu would get taken down by birdshot much less a man and it's been PROVEN in this very thread!

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... your target can only feel as much force as you feel as recoil when you pull the trigger.

 

This always makes me laugh. Ever been shot?

Ever see a deer, coyote, or hog flip to legs in the air when they get hit? That doesn't happen to the shooter when they pull the trigger.

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They flip from their body's knee-jerk response to being surprised with a severe wound, not because the bullet lifted the deer off the ground and sent it flying through the air. It is impossible for the bullet to hit the target with anymore force than it had when it left the gun.

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If you were jogging along and got hit by surprise with the force of a 12ga magnum load's recoil, you probably wouldn't be able to keep your balance and would go down. When you're shooting you don't fall over because you are braced against the recoil.

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Lol so if you shoot a jogger that see's it comin he won't fall down

 

There are pros and cons to using both. Heres my idea, sphere's leave empty spaces when they stack up in the shell. Why not take a buck shot shell and fill the gaps with bird shot? I'd like to see some video tests for that.

 

there are several loads like that.

 

haha I've been here all mornin and never scolled up enough to see the response, my bad. Ever tried any?

 

Also, what about experimenting with drilling small holes in some buck shot to see if you could get it to deform when it hits?

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This is such a simple thing to prove for the anti bird shot crowd yet I never see any volunteers.

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Cool, I'm down, we're both going to wear thick leather coats 21 feet away facing each other. Aim center mass, as will I, with your birdshot and me with my buckshot. We both fire on the count of three, deal?

 

I can handle the pain if you can handle the whole dying thing...

Edited by Caged
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If you were jogging along and got hit by surprise with the force of a 12ga magnum load's recoil, you probably wouldn't be able to keep your balance and would go down. When you're shooting you don't fall over because you are braced against the recoil.

This always makes me laugh. Ever been shot?

Ever see a deer, coyote, or hog flip to legs in the air when they get hit? That doesn't happen to the shooter when they pull the trigger.

 

As a technical forum, I hope you understand that I am not trying to be condescending or insulting, but neither of those statements are technically accurate. When an animal jumps after being shot, or a jogger falls after being shot, it is due to involuntary reaction from being shot. The target moves some or fall down, absolutely, but flying backwards, flipping over, popping up in the air is not due to the physical impact of the round, but due to the reaction of being shot. There are numerous police and military reports on the topic, even some video of law enforcement shooting a dummy on roller skates to see how far it would roll back. This can be easily recreated by shooting a hanging 14", or larger, half-inch thick steel target, and watching how much it moves. Because the target is hanging there is very little resistance to movement aside from the weight of the object, which is generally well under the weight of a human, therefore it can easily show how little force is applied to the target, especially in the case of shotgun ammunition. Shotgun ammunition is subsonic, except for very specific ammunition types, therefore travels very slow, and due to either the low mass or lesser force applied to the larger projectiles, loses momentum at a very high rate.

 

If you were to take a poor stance, basically standing straight up, not bracing for the recoil, it would still not even come close to knocking you over. It might cause you to stutter backwards, but that is easily compensated for with minor foot movement. The force you feel then is more than the target would feel.

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If you were jogging along and got hit by surprise with the force of a 12ga magnum load's recoil, you probably wouldn't be able to keep your balance and would go down. When you're shooting you don't fall over because you are braced against the recoil.

This always makes me laugh. Ever been shot?

Ever see a deer, coyote, or hog flip to legs in the air when they get hit? That doesn't happen to the shooter when they pull the trigger.

 

As a technical forum, I hope you understand that I am not trying to be condescending or insulting, but neither of those statements are technically accurate. When an animal jumps after being shot, or a jogger falls after being shot, it is due to involuntary reaction from being shot. The target moves some or fall down, absolutely, but flying backwards, flipping over, popping up in the air is not due to the physical impact of the round, but due to the reaction of being shot. There are numerous police and military reports on the topic, even some video of law enforcement shooting a dummy on roller skates to see how far it would roll back. This can be easily recreated by shooting a hanging 14", or larger, half-inch thick steel target, and watching how much it moves. Because the target is hanging there is very little resistance to movement aside from the weight of the object, which is generally well under the weight of a human, therefore it can easily show how little force is applied to the target, especially in the case of shotgun ammunition. Shotgun ammunition is subsonic, except for very specific ammunition types, therefore travels very slow, and due to either the low mass or lesser force applied to the larger projectiles, loses momentum at a very high rate.

 

If you were to take a poor stance, basically standing straight up, not bracing for the recoil, it would still not even come close to knocking you over. It might cause you to stutter backwards, but that is easily compensated for with minor foot movement. The force you feel then is more than the target would feel.

 

Back in 1972 the state of Arizona did a study using a ballistic pendulum to rate muzzle loaders for hunting. They shot different cartridge firearms into the pendelum to get a base line for testing.

 

Then different caliber muzzle loaders were shot into the same pendelum. Large caliber heavy weight muzzle loading bullets traveling at slow speed moved the pendelum the same distance as some high velocity light weight smokeless loads.

 

This gave the game and fish department a minimum caliber for muzzle loading hunting.

 

The effects of a bullet hitting an animal have been tested and depending upon awareness of the shot some animals dropped in there tracks or jumped to escape.

 

The effects of bird shot or buck loads depends on the reflexes of the hunted. If an animal is shot, most that run bleed out quickly. Those that drop bleed out slowly.

 

I for one would not like either scenario. The fight or flee reflex is mother nature at her best.

 

I am not advocating shot over buck, I'm just saying there is a reason they tell you not to point a gun at anything you don't want to kill.

 

The local paper has been filled with all kinds of reports of people being shot. A local gang banger fired one shot from a 22 rimfire pistol at someone to scare them and inadvertantly killed another person with a shot through the heart. Another person took 4 shots from an AK47 and lived.

 

Terminal ballistics is varied in its outcome. Leather jacket, denim, t-shirt, body mass, etc. 1 oz. of anything, shot or buck, fired from 21 feet does not spread out that much. The total impact is absorbed in the chest/ abdomen, the subject will bleed, shock will set in, and the subject will go down. How far from the initial shot is determined by age, stamina, relfexes and many other factors.

 

Castalia

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I used some 7 1/2 shot, 3 dram Remington on a woodchuck in my 870 @ MAYBE 10 yards.. flipped his ass in the air.. but it didn't kill 'em..

 

He kept jackin' up my garage foundation with his scared up fur and givin' me the evil eye with his milk dud eye that probably had pellets in it..

evil lil bastard didn't die for another year at least..

 

long story short... #4 shot or larger in my house...

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interesting. Is anyone going to claim that woodchucks have tougher hide than bad guys?

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interesting. Is anyone going to claim that woodchucks have tougher hide than bad guys?

 

I hit one with every low blow insult I could think of at the time and he just sat there staring at me. So I would say yes, they are pretty thick skinned.

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This can be easily recreated by shooting a hanging 14", or larger, half-inch thick steel target, and watching how much it moves. Because the target is hanging there is very little resistance to movement aside from the weight of the object, which is generally well under the weight of a human, therefore it can easily show how little force is applied to the target, especially in the case of shotgun ammunition. Shotgun ammunition is subsonic, except for very specific ammunition types, therefore travels very slow, and due to either the low mass or lesser force applied to the larger projectiles, loses momentum at a very high rate.

 

If you were to take a poor stance, basically standing straight up, not bracing for the recoil, it would still not even come close to knocking you over. It might cause you to stutter backwards, but that is easily compensated for with minor foot movement. The force you feel then is more than the target would feel.

 

I never said you'd get knocked over or launched into the air. But I've shot steel with lightweight shotgun slugs, and the the target jumps harder than if I had taken a 2 1/2 lb sledge to it. Seeing that I can definitely see how it might be hard to stay upright if one was even a little bit off-balance when hit. A hanging target is not a fair comparison, because it is inherently stable. Shoot a target with the same center of balance as standing person and you'll see a little more action.

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I've killed alot of the little bastards over the years with .22lr. The ones I missed where scared as hell. I could tell by the way they ran back into their holes.

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interesting. Is anyone going to claim that woodchucks have tougher hide than bad guys?

 

I hit one with every low blow insult I could think of at the time and he just sat there staring at me. So I would say yes, they are pretty thick skinned.

 

LMFAO indeed i've cussed them for days and they just keep coming back. 17 gr HMR usually does the job.

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