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commandernavi

How to improve Saiga 5.45 Accuracy?

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Hello everybody,

 

I was just hoping to get some advice regarding a recent purchase I made. I just bought a Saiga 5.45 and a very nice Kalinka Optics POSP 6X scope for it. I haven’t converted the rifle at all and have been using exclusively soviet milsurp spam can ammo. I am relatively new to shooting and realize that I am shooting an AK, but I have seen much tighter groups at 100 yards from others online. I have tried weighing my gun down as much as possible with sand bags at the range to prevent any movement and being as steady on the trigger as possible, but I haven’t achieved accuracy a lot of people show off on youtube for their Saiga 5.45’s and I am wondering why.

 

The groups I got today at 100 yards were about as big as a spread out hand for the better ones (all over the black). Maybe like 5-6 moa I think.

 

Here are things I believe may be causing it:

1. Tigger is factory and has not yet been converted to pistol grip and nicer trigger.

2. I am a new shooter.

3. Surplus still isn’t the best (though nothing else is really as available and not as cheap)

4. Shooting the gun hot. (I started at the 50 yard range (still only got 1.5-2 moa at 50) and shot at least 60 rounds through the gun before going to 100 yards).

5. Anything else???

 

I know that Saigas aren’t tack drivers by any means, but I was really hoping for it to perform better. Do you think it is my fault or my Saiga’s/ammo’s? It says that it shoots 136 mm at 100 m in the manual it came with. How is that? Is it just the luck of the draw to get an accurate Saiga and I didn’t luck out?

 

 

Thank you so much!

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It's the ammo. I notice a big difference when I shoot Russian bulk stuff threw my AR. Try some Hornady v-max ammo and I'll bet you get tighter groups.

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1. Make your own ammo

2. Take 3 shots let barrel cool

3. Keep the barrel clean

 

Remington 700 .308, 300 yards 8" steel target

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It's the ammo. I notice a big difference when I shoot Russian bulk stuff threw my AR. Try some Hornady v-max ammo and I'll bet you get tighter groups.

 

the hornady wasnt any better on mine, it was worse. i was shocked! ive realized its an ak and im ok with 4-7 inch groups @ 100yds as its still in torso.i took off the scope and put on a trs-25 and its perfect. love the gun, but it isnt anywhere as accurate as my ar, but im ok with that. its still my go-to fun gun to blow of steam

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well when i do my part, my sgl gets really good groups with the hornady. the best i did with irons was around 3-3.5" groups with 3 shot strings. keep in mind while my gun likes hornady, the next guy's gun may not. find what yours likes since you havent shot much anything else and go from there. once you find the ammo it likes, then see what you can squeeze out of it.

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heyo :)

 

so, you said you were a new shooter? How long have you been shooting?

 

I say this because when i first started shooting, my groups were... not the greatest. I have a converted saiga 5.45, and I have to say that it is really quite accurate. I need to put some more time in with it of course, but I think the groups will get better as i get more accustomed to the rifle.

 

The surplus 5.45 is really good ammo. It has the boat tail, and i swear to god that that teeny little difference makes a huge difference down range.

 

My advice to you would be just to practice. As you shoot the rifle more and more, you will get to know it, and your shooting will imrove :)

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NICE BUM BTW !! thats so true ^^^^^^ .22 caliber rifles especially . im kinda glad my rifle shoots the cheap stuff better than the good stuff, saves me $$$$ for more crates.

 

@ 50 yards mine is right on a 2" bull , after that when gun gets hot ..all bets are off. its my favorite tactical toy

Edited by 86250rrippin

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Thanks for the posts guys. So you think that it is because it was hot mostly? Does it really affect it that much? I guess I could try other ammo brands too although I am starting to get the vibe that that isn't the problem. Any opinions about the trigger it comes with? I heard that that can reduce group size substantially. Any thoughts?

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when my barrel is cold,its shoots 3-4 inches @ 100 yds with scope, when hot its 7 inches.my saiga has the original trigger assembly in it that i worked on a bit , its much better but not a target trigger either. i call it useable now. the trigger will help some but wont make an ak shoot 1" 100 yd groups either. they are super tough,reliable,simple, reasonably accurate rifles that you CAN count on to function. if you convert it ,the g2 trigger is supposed to be pretty nice for $30 price tag + the other stuff involded in the job

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Thanks for the posts guys. So you think that it is because it was hot mostly? Does it really affect it that much? I guess I could try other ammo brands too although I am starting to get the vibe that that isn't the problem. Any opinions about the trigger it comes with? I heard that that can reduce group size substantially. Any thoughts?

 

well the ammo will only help a little. its prolly more of a combination of you and the gun. youll get better with it. just takes time. and the AK is not known to be a tack driver. and shooting hot will open up your groups to an extent, but still plenty deadly.

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I really hope that it's true what they say about practice and improvement then! Also, next time I think I will go straight to the 100 yard range and do my best to space the shots better so that the barrel doesn't start to heat up too much. Just out of curiosity, I am sure you guys have seen some pretty good groups from others online. What do you think they were doing differently from me? Just skill or luckier with their AK?

 

Here is a good link:

 

I have been shooting for several years, but not very often and not with my own guns (let alone guns that hit pretty decently at a distance), so I am pretty new to actually expecting to make patterns at 100 yards.

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i wouldnt stress too much on it man. id use my 10 round mag when i go for accuracy. easier for me to put the rifle on a makeshift rest. if i was going for accuracy, id ditch the factory trigger, do a basic conversion, and go for a g2 trigger. the factory trigger is kind gritty to me. but if you dont want to convert it, then take some of the above steps and see what works best for ya.

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I am not so much stressed as I want to get better and try to figure out what I can do to play my part. I am not sure if the rifle is to blame or me. It is probably a combination of both. I have just been using the Saiga mag it came with since it makes it easy to put it on the bench rest. I don't know anything about bullet guides or mags affecting accuracy. However, if I should be getting 2-3'' at 100 (and I have a 6x scope), then there should be something wrong with me or the gun. Maybe the way I bench is is just super wrong. I kinda bury it in sand bags and just hold the very back of the rifle. I put a big sandbag on the top of the barrel as well (it barely doesn't cover my scope) to keep the barrel from jumping up when I shoot. Thoughts?

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Well, there are things you can do. Aks are not that accurate in general, but from the sound of it you are getting 7.62 size groups, I think you could get better groups then what you are getting. Do you know what dime drills are? Place a nickel or dime on the barrel of your rifle and lay in the prone and practice your trigger squeeze. The goal is to not let the dime fall off your barrel. Temperature is huge for accuracy, and so is a dirty barrel. I have a mini 14 (I haven't bench shot my ak 74 yet) and it honestly gets sub moa groups at 100 yards for the first few rounds. After I have fired it a while my groups get huge. I can't hit a balloon that is about 8" in size at 100 yards, the accuracy is completely lost. I was shocked when I learned this. I learned that two things were at play. Heat was a biggy so I let it cool and sure enough the same thing happened. Then I cleaned my gun, and my shot groups tightened right up. Cleaning the barrel is huge for accuracy, especially for mil surp ammo. (Im assuming this) Try cleaning your barrel between groups, and letting it cool. That should help out a lot. Good luck sir, and hope you can get those groups down!

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a hot barrel will change the harmonics vs. a cold one. you should be able to get the groups down to around 4" or so, even with 7n6. but since this rifle has not been converted, the factory trigger is kind harsh, and is likely part of the problem. let someone else shoot the rifle and see what they can squeeze out of it. if they get better groups then you'll know its something your doing. 6" at 100 is still deadly accurate. keep us posted on what ends up working best for you man.

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So I went out the the range again this weekend. It went okay, but still very far from spectacular. This time I bench rested it with so many sand bags that you couldn't move the damn thing if you tried. Groups were still a lot larger than what people are reporting all over the place online. People say that they can do 2 moa all day even with the surplus. Maybe I am getting discouraged for the wrong reasons and maybe I should never have thought I could do a good job with the 5.45. I have a very nice POSP 6X on it and I bought it hoping to at least squeeze 2" out of it at 100, but out of lots of groups I shot, I only got one like that. I had two groups of three shots that were pretty tight, but then one flier like 3 inches to the right completely opened that up. Also, other ammo doesn't work all that excellently either. I shot two groups of 4 shots. One was good at a bit less than 2 in and the other was just like the rest of the 7N6 - bad. It wasn't great ammo either, but still. Do the variations in the batches of military surplus ammo make a difference? Could I have a bad batch?

 

I posted two pictures here that show a pretty general idea of what the targets looked like. I was shooting in the same place :(.

www.photobucket.com/saiga545

 

I also tried seeing how far off target I move from pulling the trigger. it is barely anything at all. Maybe it added 0.5" tops.

 

Am I left to think that I was just unlucky and got a crappy Saiga 5.45 or that others got lucky and got much nicer rifles? Can other people please share images of groups they got with the 5.45 Saiga too please? I just really want to leave it in the config it is now with scope and the stock it came with, but if it is so inaccurate, it is a bit silly to even try for grouping at a public range. I still really want to get the kind of accuracy that guy in the video has. Any other advice guys?

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i went through this myself , ak's are not tackdrivers. im ok with that now. dont get all stressed about it ,just adjust optic to right a few inches so it will group closer to center instead of left as shown. my ar is definately more accurate , but i like the ak more. its like it has more soul or something, hard to explain. remember people can sometimes exaggerate tightness of groupings due to pride in their gun. shift poi lil to the right and shoot the pizz out of it and ENJOY IT. imo ak's are not generally 1-2 moa rifles but simple,almost crude, reliable weapons. my ar is a moa shooter but i rather shoot the ak . i have a micro dot on mine and shoot @ 50 yards and it shoots on and blows stuff up just fine. each rifle will shoot differently , mine shoots 3 shots great and starts to stray. once you figure out what it does, adjust point of aim. they are indeed battle rifles and not sniper rifles.just try to enjoy it for what it is.......................

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Get a scale, weigh your ammo. Use the rounds that are the closest in weight for accuracy testing. The cheaper the ammo, the more rounds will vary in weight, and even over all length. Use the light/heavy/short/long ammo for blasting.

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I will try these tips. I will also attempt to ask somebody to try to shoot it. Could it be inconsistencies with how I look through the scope? Would that affect it a lot?

 

could be. hard to say. about the only other thing i can tell ya is to follow through with your shots and be patient, dont anticipate the recoil or the trigger break.

 

try to triangulate your shots too. fire three rounds slowly and comfortably. find the basic center of those groups and adjust your scope accordingly to where you want the shots to go. and dont forget to follow through with your shots, as it will aid in giving you a feel for the trigger of your rifle. and your optic should be more than ok for 100 yds with a 6x.

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I will try these tips. I will also attempt to ask somebody to try to shoot it. Could it be inconsistencies with how I look through the scope? Would that affect it a lot?

 

.... about the only other thing i can tell ya is to follow through with your shots and be patient, dont anticipate the recoil or the trigger break...

+1 on this, this is the most important advice I can think of

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In the army they taught that the shot should surprise you, so be relaxed, slowly pull the trigger so the shot happens when you are not prepared for it. It is hard to quell the natural instant to tense up and jerk the gun in anticipation for the shot. It happens, I am terrible at it with my 1911, rifles I have it down pretty good. The Army taught me well.

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There are SOOO many things you can do to improve accuracy! That's what makes this a great hobby!

 

Lightly polish the trigger parts if it's a rough pull.

 

Work on your control too.

 

You know, those guys ARE bragging right?

 

 

Good luck.

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Ok I believe you can tighten up your group quiet a bit and here is how. I have a 5.45 and have shot many 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards. I could post a bunch of pics but who is to say i really shot them at that distance? You either believe it or you don't. Here is what I would do if I were you.

 

1 convert it with a g 2 trigger to get a much better trigger. This is needed for accuracy in my opinion.

2. Wait a few minutes between shots to control heat.

3. Lay down in the prone position and pull the gun into you while using a bipod or sand bags on the front.

4. Practice as others have mentioned this goes a long way. Just dry firing and holding the gun still helps as well.

5. A bigger scope. 6 x is small if you ask me. All the good groups iI have shot with mine were done with a 3-9 x40 Nikon with a good side mount.

 

One thing that I would say you need to check since you say you are new to long distance shooting is how well your scope is mounted. If it has any wobble in it this will hurt accuracy.

 

I realize that is a big list of things to change but as others have said the ak wasn't designed for accuracy so you have to do a bit of work to get it. Also keep using the 10 rd mag and surplus ammo that is what I have been using it is the best way to go for this type of shooting. Good luck and remember don't get discouraged. Trying is the fun part!

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Converted 16 inch with G2 trigger, 4X scope, and Silver Bear 60fmj will shoot between 1.5" and 2.0" from the bags. I have shot groups (five-shot) as tight as 1.3" with a factory configuration carbine. Dang I wish I hadn't sold it...

 

Still working with the 20 inch Target model.

 

Shoot off a double-bagged rest using the best ammo your rifle prefers, solidly mounted scope, firm hold on the pistol grip and using left hand, hold butt of the rifle firmly planted into your shoulder. Breath control, trigger control, consistent sight picture, squeeze....

 

Good luck

 

M

Edited by m1key

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Get the BIG sand bag off the barrel. That alone can change the barrel harmonics and add heat to the barrel. Place a sandbag under the front hand guard and rear of the stock and squeeze the rear bag for elevation. You should have the exact same cheek weld every time you are on your rifle. Before you squeeze off your round, exhale and wait for the natural pause. Practice dry firing (with snap caps preferably). Give time in between shots. There are tons of things you can do to improve your shooting and techniques.

Last but not least, practice.

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I keep an email file on all kinds of AK related stuff..... found this in my files, a comment made by someone about AK accuracy---->

 

" Two things I've learned about group shooting AK/AKM variants. Shoot them off your hand while your hand is resting on the front rest. Hard benching the forearm on the front bag will double the size of your groups. Second, load from the magazine rather than loading rounds singly. Letting the rifle cycle rounds automatically from the magazine delivers more consistent results."... from.... http://findarticles....4/ai_n27963829/

Edited by IPSC45

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