skcorvette 1 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Hi Everyone, New to the forum, So I bought a new Saiga 12 from a local store in town a few months back. I had the gun modified to handle low brass, and while it was in, I has the Tromix Firing Pin installed to minimize the chance of breaking firing pins. Well, so I took it to the range the first time a month ago, shot Remington Express 12 Gauge Magnum Buckshot in the yellow/green box...and it fired about 5 to 7 shots.....then the next round, just a click. The round had no primer dent, I took it in, and they found that the Tromix firing pin had probably broke, as the bolt didnt even have the pin still in it. Fast forward, I shot about 50 rounds last weekend, no problem. Then this weekend I shot about another 40 rounds, and then it happened again! A click! I think the pin is broken again. I am taking it to the shop again to have them put the stock pin back in, till they figure out why this has happened again. My question is, has anyone else had a problem with their Tromix firing pins? If so, what did you do? If not, is there any other reason that I have had this the second occurrence, especially with a Tromix pin? If you want to know what my gun has installed, here is a list, just in case if you think one of the upgrades are causing the broken pin.... Extended Ambi Mag Release Tromix Firing Pin Tromix Extended Charging Handle MD-Arms Adjustable V-Plug CSS Low Brass Power Recoil Spring JTE Performance Saiga Hammer/ Main Spring JTE Competition Magwell UTG Saiga 12 Quad Rail Billet Aluminum AR-15 Trigger Guard Hogue Grip JTE Competition Brake Brake lock Nut for Brake Bolt Mirror Polished Trigger job Trigger Polished Polished Bolt Carrier Polished Hammer Polished Bolt Hold Open Thanks for your help Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azkamidaka 26 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 have you ever broke down the bolt and cleaned out the firing pin channel? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) The Rem Express buck has got to be some of the most powerful 3" 12ga ammo out there. It makes Winchester 3" 00 buck look somewhat weak. I don't doubt that the Express would break some stuff, but there is likely something else going on there. It is really hard to tell what might be happening without more info or pics of the weapon. What did the shop do to it? Does it have any low power springs, 1911 springs, booster pucks, etc? Edited July 1, 2012 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skcorvette 1 Posted July 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 evlblkwpnz, I am planning on breaking it down tonight to take pics of the bolt. I do not have 1911 springs, no booster pucks, but it does have a CSS Low Brass Power Recoil Spring, could that cause it? The shop did a low brass modification which is in my first post, (the CSS recoil spring, V Plug, and modified gas block and port to support low brass)... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) The weapon was designed to fire strong loads with the gas system set on the most restrictive position and while using a full power recoil spring and mainspring. Rem Express is some downright brutal ammo.... beyond strong, in my opinion. The CSS spring could have a lot to do with it and the JTE mainspring could have been a contributor as well. These weapons can be insanely reliable while firing "low brass" with all of the factory springs (recoil, main, and extractor) if the person working on it knows the appropriate things to do. I recommend putting the factory springs back in if you want to fire strong loads, but it is hard to tell what else could have contributed to the firing pin failure without having a first-hand look at the weapon. Maybe get a pic of the rear block too. It sounds like it may have been a "slam fest" in there. Sorry about missing that info in the OP. Reading is fundamental.... even for me, but even I get lazy sometimes. Can you get a pic of the gas block? I'm just trying to figure out what they did to it. Did they increase size of the ports? If so, what size are they? Edited July 1, 2012 by evlblkwpnz 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 The first thing that comes to mind is, how does the firing pin come out of the bolt without the bolt being disassembled? Did the 'Pin' end of it break off, leaving the remainder? Do us all a huge favor, take the bolt out, disassemble it (easy to do), lay the parts out and take & post pics... Please? Also post pics of the rear of the bolt carrier and rear trunnion, where they meet each other. The next thing that comes to mind is the 'Warning' CSS has posted on this recoil spring. PERFORMANCE Recoil Spring for all Saiga ShotgunsSKU: SPRING-#1 Replaces your front recoil spring to make your Saiga shotguns more reliable. Works on all Saiga Shotguns. Made in the USA. This kit will help you run all 2 3/4" ammo from Slugs/Buck Shot to the low brass Walmart "100rd Value Pack" Remington and Federal birdshot. ******* Not for use with any 3" shells ******* This can be used with ALL 2-3/4" Shells. CAROLINA SHOOTERS Wanna break something? Install this and shoot Magnums.Breaking most internals on the S12 can be a bad deal, as parts can be very hard to come by. Bolts/Bolt Carriers & Rear Trunnions are rare. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gpqueen 545 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 The Tromix firing pin is not be used with the JTE main spring and can cause the firing pin to break. The reliability kit spring will work on all 2 3/4" shells, but 3" shells should have the factory spring installed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I can tell you right now, you didn't install the Tromix firing pin spring on the pin. We include a spring with every pin for a reason. It is also noted on our website and the distributor's websites, that the pin is not compatible with the JTE reduced power hammer spring. Tony 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 I can tell you right now, you didn't install the Tromix firing pin spring on the pin. We include a spring with every pin for a reason. It is also noted on our website and the distributor's websites, that the pin is not compatible with the JTE reduced power hammer spring. Tony Is the Tromix firing pin spring stronger than the factory spring, and using the JTE mainspring could produce light strikes? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Razorback 72 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) I bought both when they first came out and that was my experience. tromix fining pin /spring, and the full power JTE mainspring. I just added a little more tension to the main spring and no more light strikes. The Tromix spring for their firing pin is stiff, but that's the way it is designed to be so the pin doesn't break, and to prevent slamfires. I had a few people tell me to just reinstall the weaker factory firing pin spring, but I knew that wasn't going to last. Tony was posting about the Valmet firing pins breaking in the distant past and their fix was to replace the weak spring with a stiffer one. I'll look for the post. links to threads http://forum.saiga-1...in/#entry426941 http://forum.saiga-1..._30#entry428789 edited to correct spelling, change reference from Galil to Valmet and add links Edited July 1, 2012 by Razorback Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yooper14.5 84 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 The Tromix firing pin is not be used with the JTE main spring and can cause the firing pin to break. don't you mean light strikes?? Also, to the OP, you said they modified the gas block and ports. How did they modify the block and what size are the ports? and you need to get a new pin and use the included spring. dont take it back to that shop. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 What was the problem with the stock pin??? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gpqueen 545 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 The Tromix firing pin is not be used with the JTE main spring and can cause the firing pin to break. don't you mean light strikes?? Also, to the OP, you said they modified the gas block and ports. How did they modify the block and what size are the ports? and you need to get a new pin and use the included spring. dont take it back to that shop. The reason it can cause it to break is most will not use the supplied stronger firing pin spring that came with the Tromix firing pin to get it to work with the JTE main spring. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yooper14.5 84 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 The Tromix firing pin is not be used with the JTE main spring and can cause the firing pin to break. don't you mean light strikes?? Also, to the OP, you said they modified the gas block and ports. How did they modify the block and what size are the ports? and you need to get a new pin and use the included spring. dont take it back to that shop. The reason it can cause it to break is most will not use the supplied stronger firing pin spring that came with the Tromix firing pin to get it to work with the JTE main spring. Ok, thanks for clarifying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skcorvette 1 Posted July 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Everyone thanks for your reply, I did not have a chance to look at the thread till this afternoon. I took it in to the shop, and my gun guy took it apart and said he will have the gun smith take a look but he does not see the pin even retracting from the bolt. I asked about the spring in the bolt, and it is both a tromix supplied spring and tromix pin in the bolt on both occasions. the gun store guy thinks it might be the jte main power spring too. When I get it back I will take pictures of all the requested info and post. I guess I won't be shooting magnum anymore, I wonder if I should just go stock main spring and stock firing pin ad just keep the CSS spring and just shoot regular loads. Will keep everyone posted Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yooper14.5 84 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Believe me, you want to do it right and make the gun run with the factory recoil spring. Its worth it to never have to bother with it or worry about it again. id switch back to the factory mainspring as well, its more reliable in every way possible. Also, I dont believe the shop for a second that they used the right spring. How hard is it to push the firing pin in with your finger? The tromix spring should make your finger hurt. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skcorvette 1 Posted July 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Believe me, you want to do it right and make the gun run with the factory recoil spring. Its worth it to never have to bother with it or worry about it again. id switch back to the factory mainspring as well, its more reliable in every way possible. Also, I dont believe the shop for a second that they used the right spring. How hard is it to push the firing pin in with your finger? The tromix spring should make your finger hurt. My gut tells me to go to the factory recoil spring and factory main trigger spring too. Now should I have them replace the broken Tromix spring and Tromix pin with a factory pin or will the Tromix be reliable once I go back to factory recoil and factory main trigger sprung? I just want the gun to be reliable.... On that note if I go factory springs I can't do birdshot anymore I suppose? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yooper14.5 84 Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 The tromix setup is the better setup. Its less likely to break. When you can, toss us some pics of the firing pin channel. The tromix pin is larger, and more likely to be affected by obstructions. You need to make sure the channel is clear. if it breaks with the right springs then theres somthing else wrong. As far as birdshot goes, you could try a more efficient puck. If that fails, drill your ports and you'll be good to go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Believe me, you want to do it right and make the gun run with the factory recoil spring. Its worth it to never have to bother with it or worry about it again. id switch back to the factory mainspring as well, its more reliable in every way possible. Also, I dont believe the shop for a second that they used the right spring. How hard is it to push the firing pin in with your finger? The tromix spring should make your finger hurt. My gut tells me to go to the factory recoil spring and factory main trigger spring too. Now should I have them replace the broken Tromix spring and Tromix pin with a factory pin or will the Tromix be reliable once I go back to factory recoil and factory main trigger sprung? I just want the gun to be reliable.... On that note if I go factory springs I can't do birdshot anymore I suppose? I only use factory springs and none are modifed, not even the extractor spring. My weapons run whatever in SGM mags and MD-20s, but I have done a lot of work to them. Never give up.... it can be done. You may need gas, hammer re-profile, and carrier underside re-profile. A decent re-profile will do more than an excellent polish. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skcorvette 1 Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 Ok just an update, shop is replacing the Tromix pin with a new Tromix pin. they are removing the CSS recoil spring with a factory recoil spring and removing the JTE main spring putting in a factory main spring. the hammer has been polished so I will ask if they reprofiled it....per evlblkwpnz..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 The Tromix pin will not break if it is installed with the Tromix firing pin spring. However, you will end up with light primer strikes if you use the reduced power hammer spring with the Tromix parts. That is why it is listed on the website as not being compatible with the light hammer spring. I don't think a light main recoil spring would cause a problem though. Personally, I would go back to the factory recoil spring and hammer spring, run the Tromix firing pin/spring combo, and save your factory pin/spring. If you break your one and only factory pin, there are no replacements. Tony 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skcorvette 1 Posted July 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 The Tromix pin will not break if it is installed with the Tromix firing pin spring. However, you will end up with light primer strikes if you use the reduced power hammer spring with the Tromix parts. That is why it is listed on the website as not being compatible with the light hammer spring. I don't think a light main recoil spring would cause a problem though. Personally, I would go back to the factory recoil spring and hammer spring, run the Tromix firing pin/spring combo, and save your factory pin/spring. If you break your one and only factory pin, there are no replacements. Tony Tony that is what Is exactly what is being done as the solution Tromix firing pin with spring Factory recoil spring Factory hammer spring I hope this time I can keep this firing pin for longer than 50 rounds, rather 10,000 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 With all due respect to everyone who has previously posted, firing pins break for one or more of the following reasons: 1. Faulty Design 2. Improper material 3. Incorrect Rockwell Hardness of the material being used for its intended purpose (if it bends not hard enough, if it snaps, then it is too hard/brittle) 4. Metal fatigue after thousands of cycles. Blaming it on anything else, other than the above reasons, is evading the basic engineering facts of small component design. Firing pin breakage is virtually unheard of in this day and age of modern technology throughout the firearms industry. Light strikes can and will be caused by a lighter mainspring, but not the breakage of a firing pin. Spring rates in regards to the firing train have a direct effect on lock up time. Lighter components in the firing train provide faster lock up time. Heavier components need heavier springs to maintain reliability and an acceptable lock up time. When you have a heavier firing pin than stock, then you need a heavier firing pin spring to maintain a faster lock up time than the stock spring will provide and a heavier (stock) mainspring to maintain a reliable primer strike (inertia). If all else fails, than blame it on the gun being under gassed!! Oh, and I am sorry if I hurt the feeling of those of you who have a man crush on Tony. His is one fine looking man, isn't he? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 I have yet to modify any of my internals and mine is a 3 port. I just made sure I ran 25-50 highbrass loads in it first, Now my only issue is making sure its on the right gas setting for what I'm shooting. I can shoot low brass federal bulk all day long with no issues(as long as I have it on setting #2). Eventually I'll get the bolt done and convert it but till funds are available after ammo I will. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 If all else fails, than blame it on the gun being under gassed!! Not sure if this comment is directed at me, but maybe you didn't comprehend what I was saying. I never stated that the pin breakage had anything to do with the weapon being undergassed. The following description of the JTE mainspring is found at the CSS site, which your site links to and is stated as the exclusive dealer of your products.... "Give your weapon complete reliability by replacing your factory mainspring with this American manufactured, silicon spring steel, Performance Power main spring. Dramatically smooths and improves trigger pull while maintaining the same factory level striking force. This spring will not fall off the trigger legs, break or twist like the factory stock spring." I think the first part of the description is somewhat misleading and I feel that is is not the appropriate way to attempt to achieve reliability. However, I do realize the other benefits that the product offers. These are gas operated weapons and they were originally designed to fire loads other than bulk birdshot. That would tell me that the port sizing was tailored to loads other than bulk birdshot, which I believe is a reasonable concept. Myself and many others here (professionals and otherwise) have achieved bulk birdshot reliability by means other than using reduced powers springs and such. Enlarging port surface is one of many things that I have done to achieve it and it does not limit the weapon to only running bulk birdshot because the system can still be regulated via the gas regulator. It does make sense. I was merely offering the OP my opinion on what he can do or have done to achieve similar reliability to what I have while not using the weaker springs that, in effect, compromise the weapon's ability to fire loads like Remington Express 00 Buck safely.... that's all. I understand your desire to defend your product and become a part of the discussion, but I have a hard time understanding why you can't do so in a different manner. You are well respected here and overall in the industry. You have nothing to prove here. Realize it. As far as Tony Rumore goes, I believe the gentleman has earned the respect that he gets here, just as you have earned the respect that you get. He was a pioneer in this industry and laid the groundwork for a deeper interest in this platform, which lead to us having this discussion today. I personally, am very thankful for that as my interest in this platform has effected my life in a very profound manner. It may sound strange, but it is true. I never saw it coming. I'm not a Tromix fan and I am merely stating the facts here. I am asking everyone here move the discussion in a more helpful direction, as I tried to previously. We are all on the same team when you get right down to it. The local 3 gun matches make that glaringly apparent to me. Please do not be offended by this post as that is not my intention whatsoever. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SNAFU 4 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 careful evlblkwpnz.. heresy like that isn't tolerated rnd here... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skcorvette 1 Posted July 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 With all due respect to everyone who has previously posted, firing pins break for one or more of the following reasons: 1. Faulty Design 2. Improper material 3. Incorrect Rockwell Hardness of the material being used for its intended purpose (if it bends not hard enough, if it snaps, then it is too hard/brittle) 4. Metal fatigue after thousands of cycles. Blaming it on anything else, other than the above reasons, is evading the basic engineering facts of small component design. Firing pin breakage is virtually unheard of in this day and age of modern technology throughout the firearms industry. Light strikes can and will be caused by a lighter mainspring, but not the breakage of a firing pin. Spring rates in regards to the firing train have a direct effect on lock up time. Lighter components in the firing train provide faster lock up time. Heavier components need heavier springs to maintain reliability and an acceptable lock up time. When you have a heavier firing pin than stock, then you need a heavier firing pin spring to maintain a faster lock up time than the stock spring will provide and a heavier (stock) mainspring to maintain a reliable primer strike (inertia). If all else fails, than blame it on the gun being under gassed!! Oh, and I am sorry if I hurt the feeling of those of you who have a man crush on Tony. His is one fine looking man, isn't he? Question for JTE Engineering......can you explain the Rockwell Hardness potential issue? would that be at the pin or the shot ammo? And Listen everyone, I didnt mean to offend anyone , and I strongly believe both JTE and Tromix make wonderful, high quality products. Its just in my situation, my current setup just must be apparently incompatible ( having the tromix spring/pin with the jte main spring, and the css recoil, along with the v-plug) I just want to be abe to enjoy my saiga for years to come with a variety of high and low brass. the intended fix in my situation from the gun shop is keeping tromix pin/spring, regular recoil spring, and regular main spring. if it fails again, that means its back to the drawing board.........then it could be anything i guess (the bolt? a bad trigger job? the piston? who knows....) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 vette, Just hang in there and don't give up. Get the hammer and carrier profile done, and see what happens with the factory mainand recoil springs. If it isn't quite running like you want, take note of the frequency of the failures and what type. Post the results. You may end up needing some gas work if you are still getting FTE. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 My comments are not meant to be directed at anyone in particular, but in general, and I try to keep it light hearted although some people may take offense, @evblwpnz, the comments about "Under gassed" is not directed towards you, nor did I read your post. It is just funny how it is always blamed for a problem where one does not really exist to start with. @skcorvette The Rockwell Hardness is in reference to the firing pin. Any part which is sent out for heat treating needs to be checked with a Rockwell Hardness Tester by the designer of the parts to ensure the production shop is heat treating the parts to the desired spec. Firing pins are generally in the 35-37 Rockwell Hardness Range. We have one in the shop for testing the Aftec extractors, firing pins, hammers, etc., after we receive them back from heat treating. Sometimes they are way the fuck off and have to be re done. The JTE Mainspring IS NOT compatible with the Tromix Heavy Hitter Firing Pin/Spring kit because light primer strikes will occur if you do not use the factory hammer/main spring. I take no offense to this as the JTE Main/Hammer Spring was designed to target a specific customer base/need. The factory springs will serve most Saiga 12 owners and do exactly what they want. I target a customer who knows what ammunition he will primarily shoot through the shotgun and knows how to tune the gun for the recoil and linear response he is looking for. You can eliminate a lot of the felt recoil from the shotgun if you know how to set up/tune the gun properly, but you need to stick with the same shells to be able do this. It's like building a Race Car/Bike, you need to know what your intended use will be so you can match the proper parts for the build. Parts are a personal choice or preference and should be respected for that. A certain part may not fit my need, but that doesn't mean it won't fit the need of another individual and do exactly what it is he is looking for. And, this is what really chaffs my ass: If a customer has a problem with a part, have the common courtesy to notify the distributor or manufacture to fix the problem/issue before you post it on a public forum. When it is put on a public forum, the manufacture has no choice but to defend the product or what is posted will seem valid. I have had this done to me on several occassions and I get pretty pissed as I take it personal as most of the vendors on this forum do. We will all back up our products 100%. Customer service is critical, but it is a two way street. You gotta work together. To the OP: Whoever is building your gun has done you a major disservice by not finding out what your intended use and what shells you are going to be shooting through the shotgun and then advising you on what parts will work best for your needs. Putting a low brass reliability kit in the gun and then going out and shooting 3" Magnums????? I kinda see something wrong with this picture. As I have said numerous times, there is a lot more to building a reliable firearm, than just throwing a bunch of parts together. If you are not sure, call the manufacture and find out about the compatibility and if they will work for your intended use. Jack 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TORKIT 20 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 skcorvette, its trouble shooting and to me thats half the fun, keep working on it and you'll get there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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