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Are solenoid operated triggers legal?


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Something else that was around in paintball that my brother in law (Browning Gun Smith) told me they used on some shotguns was a reactive trigger that fired on trigger pull and release. I dont know what guns or how old they were, and if I recall it was used for skeet/trap, but I would think that would also be in violation of one shot per trigger pull today.

 

6500,

IIRC, these triggers are permitted because both pulling and releasing the trigger is considered to be a single function of the trigger, therefore not meeting the definition of machinegun. I don't really see the usefulness myself.

 

The question of solenoid operated triggers comes up often with the SG43 Goryunov builds people are making because kits from the vehicle-mounted guns include the original solenoid-operated trigger mech. The general consensus of most builders is that solenoid operated triggers are a NO GO on semi builds because it meets the "readily restoreable to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger."

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The definition of a machinegun:   "Firearms within the definition of machinegun include weapons that shoot, are designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one s

Do whatever the fuck you want. I couldn't give a shit less. I was just offering some food for thought. You obviously doubted the legality of this build because you posted the topic. Now you didn't lik

I agree with Shandlanos. Some people, including myself, are against the idea of guns having wires. I was a F14 Tomcat mechanic, F14s had all mechanical flight controls (push pull tubes, bell cranks, e

If the whole point is to just move the location of the trigger for a different physical configuration, you should be fine. Anything "else" just don't.

 

" or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically" Thats the tricky part to define..or rather avoid. Who determines "readily" is what makes all the difference. I remember the ATF talking about airsoft guns as being "easily" converted to fire real ammunition.

That part is about semi-automatic weapons that can be returned to a condition where they're capable of automatic fire.

And he's talking about a SAIGA 12 SEMI AUTOMATIC SHOTGUN... "restored" doesn't mean "was previously full auto" it means "it can be made full auto" and as Bob Ash said, it's not hard to see how an electronic trigger/solenoid can be made to pulse rappidly, thus creating "full auto" with MINOR modifications to the circut.

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Fine I can use linkage, I've been building RC planes for 26 yrs, a trigger linkage is not a problem, in fact it might be better, but in todays day and age I think it's time to take things to the next level and still keep it legal and safe.

Edited by TORKIT
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Fine I can use linkage, I've been building RC planes for 26 yrs, a trigger linkage is not a problem, in fact it might be better, but in todays day and age I think it's time to take things to the next level and still keep it legal and safe.

Man I love to see people do new and innovative things. I'm just pointing out that volitale nature of legality when it comes to firearms.

The ATF once rulled that a "shoe lace" was a machine gun, when affixed to a ruger mini 14. They really do their best not to leave any loop holes. And I think thats what they might see your build as a potenital issue. Just be warrry and take the time to do the research first.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/01/25/shoestring-machine-gun/

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Or we can go with kiss my ass I'm doing it anyway, I don't like being told what I can and can't do, so I'll do it and it'll be safe and I'll just keep the project to myself and not share it with anyone but my FRIENDS.

 

 

 

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Do whatever the fuck you want. I couldn't give a shit less. I was just offering some food for thought. You obviously doubted the legality of this build because you posted the topic. Now you didn't like what you heard and are throwing a hissy fit. Sounds like a brillant plan, hope all works out for you.

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Do whatever the fuck you want. I couldn't give a shit less. I was just offering some food for thought. You obviously doubted the legality of this build because you posted the topic. Now you didn't like what you heard and are throwing a hissy fit. Sounds like a brillant plan, hope all works out for you.

 

It was a simple yes or no question, I never doubted anything, but I figured there was some experts here that could easily answer it without blowing it out of perportion, and cool vid thanks.

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Guys, this is easy to do, all he has to do is keep the current trigger equipment installed and connect a servo motor to it. This would require the trigger to be reset every time a round is cycled. Since there is no "controller" board it simply CAN NOT be re-configured to allow more than one shot per trigger pull.

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Guys, this is easy to do, all he has to do is keep the current trigger equipment installed and connect a servo motor to it. This would require the trigger to be reset every time a round is cycled. Since there is no "controller" board it simply CAN NOT be re-configured to allow more than one shot per trigger pull.

 

 

Thank you, but I'm gonna use a solenoid, I have tons of servos laying around, even speed servos, but servos fail alot more often than a solenoid and are not gonna be as fast if its hooked directly to the trigger, but your right it will only fire 1 shot per trigger pull, glad we are all on the same page now, and sorry pooling, I wasn't trying to start a fight, I just needed to know because if it was illegal it probably wouldn't be the best idea to post pics here and share my idea, which I'm still not telling till it's done.

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Or we can go with kiss my ass I'm doing it anyway, I don't like being told what I can and can't do, so I'll do it and it'll be safe and I'll just keep the project to myself and not share it with anyone but my FRIENDS.

 

That's probably a good idea, because it's certainly illegal. Here's some Q&A from the "Crankfire" website:

Q. Is it legal?

A. All hand cranked, cam operated trigger devices, used on Title One semi automatic firearms, are at this time "not illegal" under federal law, as per BATFE. The only letter I have ever seen is posted at www.gatlingguns.com. All it says is that the unit/device does not constitute a firearm, so it is not regulated by them. This is exactly what Mr. Ed Owens at the Technical Branch told me about ten years ago. It appears that California and Minnesota have State laws that prohibit "trigger devices" so these units cannot be shipped to those two states. Anyone purchasing a trigger device, of any kind, should check their State and local laws to determine if such a device is legal or not.

 

What is definitely Illegal is to connect any form of power to operate the device. "Hand cranked only" is OK.

 

 

And these guys sell a device similar to what you're doing (an assumption on my part)...although I feel that this thread has become useless to you since you are planning to break the law regardless. Oh well, carry on.

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Or we can go with kiss my ass I'm doing it anyway, I don't like being told what I can and can't do, so I'll do it and it'll be safe and I'll just keep the project to myself and not share it with anyone but my FRIENDS.

 

That's probably a good idea, because it's certainly illegal. Here's some Q&A from the "Crankfire" website:

Q. Is it legal?

A. All hand cranked, cam operated trigger devices, used on Title One semi automatic firearms, are at this time "not illegal" under federal law, as per BATFE. The only letter I have ever seen is posted at www.gatlingguns.com. All it says is that the unit/device does not constitute a firearm, so it is not regulated by them. This is exactly what Mr. Ed Owens at the Technical Branch told me about ten years ago. It appears that California and Minnesota have State laws that prohibit "trigger devices" so these units cannot be shipped to those two states. Anyone purchasing a trigger device, of any kind, should check their State and local laws to determine if such a device is legal or not.

 

What is definitely Illegal is to connect any form of power to operate the device. "Hand cranked only" is OK.

 

 

And these guys sell a device similar to what you're doing (an assumption on my part)...although I feel that this thread has become useless to you since you are planning to break the law regardless. Oh well, carry on.

 

If these guys I posted links to are doing it, it should be legal. I don't hold much faith on what crankfire or any other internet site says. I'd like to see a BATF letter saying it's illegal. The only real way to know is to wright the BATF. Any other info is pure gosip.

Edited by ARMOR
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It's not going to be cam operated. That is for the trigger system made for the 10/22 that has multiple cams and a hand-crank, makes your 10/22 act like a gatling gun kinda. My father had one for years, came with it's own letter from the ATF...

 

I would figure that someone who works for "the legend" would know that.

 

Completely different trigger system. That's like comparing a slide-fire stock to the hell-fire trigger system... Or the full-auto sear to the lightning link...

 

Oh, and yeah, solenoid, servo, the trigger would still work the same way. Solenoid would probably be better for this usage anyway.

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I was thinking about this thread... as well as other threads similar to this in the past... I had my own musing: has anyone looked into the legality of something of progressively staged trigger?-My thought is something where you pull the trigger to 6 o'clock, it fires the first round, pull further to 8 o'clock it fires a second round... or even something resembling the appearance of a trigger safety with one trigger set within the other.

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I was thinking about this thread... as well as other threads similar to this in the past... I had my own musing: has anyone looked into the legality of something of progressively staged trigger?-My thought is something where you pull the trigger to 6 o'clock, it fires the first round, pull further to 8 o'clock it fires a second round... or even something resembling the appearance of a trigger safety with one trigger set within the other.

 

THIS is DEFINITELY illegal, one shot per trigger pull folks!

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or even something resembling the appearance of a trigger safety with one trigger set within the other.

 

this is fine as long as its on a double barrel shotgun. dont know about multiple triggers on a semi.

 

ETA: there are production semi auto pistols with electronic triggers on the market eg, the Matchguns MG2 RF.

Edited by Bulldog_Shotgun
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I was thinking about this thread... as well as other threads similar to this in the past... I had my own musing: has anyone looked into the legality of something of progressively staged trigger?-My thought is something where you pull the trigger to 6 o'clock, it fires the first round, pull further to 8 o'clock it fires a second round... or even something resembling the appearance of a trigger safety with one trigger set within the other.

 

THIS is DEFINITELY illegal, one shot per trigger pull folks!

Is it? The idea is basically a trigger that is pulled in such a way that your finger then pulls a second trigger, in that way its one pull motion but two triggers being pulled.
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I was thinking about this thread... as well as other threads similar to this in the past... I had my own musing: has anyone looked into the legality of something of progressively staged trigger?-My thought is something where you pull the trigger to 6 o'clock, it fires the first round, pull further to 8 o'clock it fires a second round... or even something resembling the appearance of a trigger safety with one trigger set within the other.

 

THIS is DEFINITELY illegal, one shot per trigger pull folks!

Is it? The idea is basically a trigger that is pulled in such a way that your finger then pulls a second trigger, in that way its one pull motion but two triggers being pulled.

 

Thats a cool idea, 3 THIN triggers welded together offset to make it like an opposite ratchet effect, thats scary lol. I may end up with a cable system after all of the posts, linkage is still an option as well though or both, still on the fence about the solenoid, guess I can make both electrical an mechanical and see which is better, but solenoid would be so much easier and wayyyyy cooler,

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Here's one for thought, if lets say someone lives in a state that they can shoot full auto s-12's, could they have a solenoid operated trigger someware mounted to the gun? It's already full auto, or is that a bad thing?

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Here's one for thought, if lets say someone lives in a state that they can shoot full auto s-12's, could they have a solenoid operated trigger someware mounted to the gun? It's already full auto, or is that a bad thing?

For a civilian,(meaning non SOT3) it's illegal. Why? There are no transferable full auto s12's. Now lets say transferable full auto (anything) you can do most whatever you want, because it's ALREADY a machine gun.

Now I might be wrong, but my understanding is once it's a machine gun you can chop the barrel whatever length etc and it doesn't matter. However you cannot build something automated..like say uses a motion tracker etc.

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Do it! You are NOT doing an "electric trigger", you are only doing an electric trigger linkage. I have always wondered why every one bitches about the crappy linkage on a bull pup, when an electric link is so easy to do.

 

Because people are used to their firearms being mechanical devices, which do not require batteries. One of the reasons electronic ignition has never caught on.

 

I agree with Shandlanos. Some people, including myself, are against the idea of guns having wires. I was a F14 Tomcat mechanic, F14s had all mechanical flight controls (push pull tubes, bell cranks, ect). Even if you lost all electric power you still had some input to the flight controls. The later F16's had electrical flight controls with a mechanical backup cables, then the super F16s were totaly electrical, nothing mechanical. I, and many like me, never liked the idea. I don't like trusting my life to a copper wire. You can talk statistics about how much more often mechanical system fail than electrical, I don't care. A gun should be all mechanical. IMO

 

 

As far as the OP's idea being legal, who knows. The ATF gets to make up the rules as they go along, the rules don't have to make sense or follow any kind of logic, and they can change their minds at any time.

Edited by bigdaddyhatty
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I was thinking about this thread... as well as other threads similar to this in the past... I had my own musing: has anyone looked into the legality of something of progressively staged trigger?-My thought is something where you pull the trigger to 6 o'clock, it fires the first round, pull further to 8 o'clock it fires a second round... or even something resembling the appearance of a trigger safety with one trigger set within the other.

 

THIS is DEFINITELY illegal, one shot per trigger pull folks!

Is it? The idea is basically a trigger that is pulled in such a way that your finger then pulls a second trigger, in that way its one pull motion but two triggers being pulled.

 

Yes, it would have to be two seperate triggers, otherwise the weapon fired twice during the full pull range of the first trigger.

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I would figure that someone who works for "the legend" would know that.

 

1) I don't work "for" Tony, I work "with" Tony.

2) I'm not an expert on this subject; just supplying input as requested.

3) You seem upset.

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