Are solenoid operated triggers legal?

[TORKIT 20]

It's hard to ask this question without telling you why I want to know, but if I can my next build is gonna be cool.

[corbin 621]

I don't THINK it's legal, but I'm not positive. Perhaps the ATF is worried about a remotely fired weapon, like on the Jackal. Who knows. Or maybe it's because it would be considered too easy to convert it to send a pulsed signal to the solenoid, hence getting a full auto, for all intents and purposes.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Corbin

[Shandlanos 1,470]

I don't think a solenoid itself would be illegal.

 

It would be pretty easy to make the logical leap to constructive possession if it's software-controlled, as the software could be readily re-written to allow full-auto fire. If it is hard-wired, so that you press the new "trigger," being an electronic button/switch, which activates the solenoid to trip the mechanical trigger, and when released, releases the solenoid and allows the mechanical trigger to reset, I don't see the problem. It could definitely enable a high rate of semi-automatic fire.

 

I'm not a lawyer, etc. etc.

[TORKIT 20]

ok, the trigger will still be on the gun, like I said it's hard to ask without reveiling my idea, what I have in mind can be done with linkage, not trying to go full auto or remote fire.

[yooper14.5 84]

Id do some research on trigger actuators for this one. Atkins accelerator got banned for a spring, slide fires legal without one. The accelerator pulled the trigger each time it fired , it wasn't full auto, but got banned as a trigger actuator anyways. so it can be semi and still be banned.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

The Akins got banned because it used mechanical means to achieve simulated full-auto fire. This is a HUGE grey area.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

I would submit drawings to the ATF Director of technologies and request response befor beginig. Youll have to wait a few months before begining but its the safest route.

[timy 1,185]

I would submit drawings to the ATF Director of technologies and request response befor beginig. Youll have to wait a few months before begining but its the safest route.

 

I'd be interested in the reply to that one as I've toyed with the idea myself.

[G O B 3,516]

1 shot per trigger pull. Use something like a Hall effect or LED (like an auto point replacement) to gate an SCR . Do not use the solenoid coil to directly actuate the firing pin, use something like a stock Saiga trigger group that has a mechanical interlock to prevent the hammer from falling until the trigger is reset and pulled again.

[Asmodeus 13]

I wonder what kind of vehicle this is going to end up mounted on?

 

[BobAsh 582]

The definition of a machinegun:

 

"Firearms within the definition of machinegun include weapons that shoot, are designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger." (NFA handbook 2.1.6)

 

It's pretty easy to see how an electronic device could be readily made to shoot more than one shot per pull.

[csspecs 1,987]

You could possibly go pneumatic to make a lighter trigger pull. It could be easier to get approved since it would be more inherently semi-auto then an electric setup.

[Vance665 225]

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

 

 

 

The law seems clear to me...

[TORKIT 20]

With the solenoid it would only fire as fast as a normal trigger pull, I'm not hooking my i-phone to it to go full auto, I just want the trigger in an odd location, sorry I don't want give out my idea just yet, I wanna be the 1st to do it.

[patriot 7,197]

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

 

 

 

The law seems clear to me...

 

Let us know how that works out for ya!

[jamen 8]

Guns with electronic triggers, rather than mechanical triggers are made. Remington has or had the 700 EtronX rifle. A number of target pistols with electric triggers are made for Olympic "free pistol" competition. I don't see why yours would be a problem, in itself. As others have noted, if you do the setup for a semi-auto gun, and just holding the switch will let it fire multiple times, that is something I would expect to be treated as a machine gun by the legal system and by ATF. However, if the setup is for a gun that does not automatically reload itself you're fine. And if it's for a gun that does automatically reload itself, your design will need to incorporate systems to keep it from firing more than once with a single activation of the electric switch.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

" or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically" Thats the tricky part to define..or rather avoid. Who determines "readily" is what makes all the difference. I remember the ATF talking about airsoft guns as being "easily" converted to fire real ammunition.

[aka_mythos 35]

If the whole point is to just move the location of the trigger for a different physical configuration, you should be fine. Anything "else" just don't.

 

" or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically" Thats the tricky part to define..or rather avoid. Who determines "readily" is what makes all the difference. I remember the ATF talking about airsoft guns as being "easily" converted to fire real ammunition.

That part is about semi-automatic weapons that can be returned to a condition where they're capable of automatic fire.

[Vance665 225]

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

 

 

 

The law seems clear to me...

 

Let us know how that works out for ya!

 

Sure thing captain America.

 

I'm not suggesting anything, just pointing out the facts. Of coarse there are alot of new laws that make things confusing.

[TORKIT 20]

The solenoid will be activating the trigger assy, thus it will reset just like a normal trigger pull even if I hold the trigger down.

[6500rpm 670]

Electro Pneumatic paintball guns have been around for years. The lack of trigger weight and the short throw on a micro switch made the firing rate unbelievable (17 bps/ rounds per sec) was easily attainable with a hopper that would keep up. I can't believe ATF would ever entertain the thought of allowing it on a real firearm, if nothing else recoil would most likely make it a safety hazard. I'll throw this out, back in the early tourney days Team All Americans (Smart Parts) got busted for tweeking their control board in their guns that when a certain trigger sequence was used that the following pull would go full auto for that pull only. While on a personal level I think it would be cool as hell to circumvent full auto price restrictions, I don't see it being allowed. Something else that was around in paintball that my brother in law (Browning Gun Smith) told me they used on some shotguns was a reactive trigger that fired on trigger pull and release. I dont know what guns or how old they were, and if I recall it was used for skeet/trap, but I would think that would also be in violation of one shot per trigger pull today.

 

Why not electronic-

Edited July 3, 2012 by 6500rpm

[KennyFSU 249]

I like where this is going, in for results of final product.

[Fitty% 808]

Me too

[gunfun 3,931]

Remington offered an electric primered version of the 700 bolt action, using similar primers to what are used in aircraft Gatling guns.

 

I've seen something somewhere about someone who wanted to do an electricaly operated semi auto firearm, and the ATF didn't come out and say it was for sure illegal, but implied strongly that it would be considered "easily convertable" (and they would be very easily convertable.)

 

As 6500RPM pointed out there are a huge supply of paintball boards that can be configured to control almost any combination of solenoids (people building one of a kind guns often go with a morelock board which can be configured very broadly to run a broad range of solenoids with nearly infinite combinations of dwell times and delays.), with cheater modes to hide rate enhancers that violate field or tournament rules. Also, it is very easy to have absurdly light triggers, and preventing unintentional bumpfires (called "bounce" in PB lingo) I've done a bit of airsmithing from time to time (>27 of my own PB guns, countless friends and strangers, and a few paid jobs passed to me by the local shop), and I can tell you that a lot of people have spent lots of money trying to develop software that can tell the difference between a recoil induced bounce trigger pull and one intended by the shooter, especially when a shooter wants to get a bit of bounce that is illegal. Consider how little recoil an electro PB gun has in relation to a firearm, and you can see that even an honest attempt at making a legal semi electro firearm would require a horrible trigger, and would still probably double fire often enough to get you in jail.

[pedal2alloy 206]

I would submit drawings to the ATF Director of technologies and request response befor beginig. Youll have to wait a few months before begining but its the safest route.

 

No, you don't have to ask for permission to do something that you are allowed to do. Are you making a machine gun? No. So you already have your answer.

[TORKIT 20]

This topic is over for now, I'm going for it.

[G O B 3,516]

Do it! You are NOT doing an "electric trigger", you are only doing an electric trigger linkage. I have always wondered why every one bitches about the crappy linkage on a bull pup, when an electric link is so easy to do.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Do it! You are NOT doing an "electric trigger", you are only doing an electric trigger linkage. I have always wondered why every one bitches about the crappy linkage on a bull pup, when an electric link is so easy to do.

 

Because people are used to their firearms being mechanical devices, which do not require batteries. One of the reasons electronic ignition has never caught on.

[G O B 3,516]

If you use a ceramic igniter as a trigger it does not need batteries. You could also use the same batteries as the weapon light.

[TORKIT 20]

I will be using a lythium polymer 3 cell 11.1 volt 20 c 250 to 400 mAh pack.