Jlhill0801 0 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 I am about to purchase a saiga 12 from a dealer in town. He says it's converted but the pistol grip a trigger have not been moved forward. But it also has a 20 rd drum on it and shoots with it on. Any ideas on what I'm looking at? Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ewoketeer 35 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Sounds like a Tapco Intrafuse stock. The problem (potential) is that it now had a pistol grip and has to conform to 922r specs. Check the 922r section elsewhere in this forum... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 probably a tapco pistol grip with stock. If it's not moved forward, it's not converted, he either doesn't know any better, or is hoping you don't. Eitherway I say walk away from people who practice business as such. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,742 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 What price? He said it shoots, that means it's used. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 It isn't converted. It has cheap bolt-on parts. 922r compliance is not your problem, as you didn't construct it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jlhill0801 0 Posted July 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) He is asking $799 for it. It comes with an $80 light/laser combo, 20rd drum, and 5rd mag. He is asking $799 for it. It comes with an $80 light/laser combo, 20rd drum, and 5rd mag. It is new in box except for the shots he put through it. Edited July 7, 2012 by Jlhill0801 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 He is asking $799 for it. It comes with an $80 light/laser combo, 20rd drum, and 5rd mag. He is asking $799 for it. It comes with an $80 light/laser combo, 20rd drum, and 5rd mag. It is new in box except for the shots he put through it. If it cycles federal bulk pack ammo it might be a decent deal, you would have to invest more to properly restore it though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) It may not be what you want to hear, but I call it like I see it. Either the guy doesn't know what he is talking about, or he is trying to bullshit you. Neither is good. If the trigger is not moved forward, it isn't converted. What year is it? (the first 2 numbers in the serial number will tell you this, 08, 09, 10, 11) 2011s have some welcome changes on them. What does he want for it? From what you have described, I wouldn't pay more than $650 with the drum and the factory 5 round mag, but that's me. The stock/grip is just another item that you will have to get rid of. Place no value on it as it is not a desirable setup. He is asking $799 for it. It comes with an $80 light/laser combo, 20rd drum, and 5rd mag. He is asking $799 for it. It comes with an $80 light/laser combo, 20rd drum, and 5rd mag. It is new in box except for the shots he put through it. Hell no, I wouldn't pay that. Tell him to keep the cheesy light/laser combo and you will give him $650 with the drum and a factory 5 rounder. If he won't budge, find a new 2011 model.... for less. Atlantic Firearms is an excellent company to deal with. They offer an ar15.com member discount as well. $20 per firearm. Edited July 7, 2012 by evlblkwpnz 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 I think a vendor on here was offering uncoverted s12's with a chaos for $799. OP...forget about this guy, he's a con. Order offline, and have it shipped to him, then you can rub it in when you tell him what you paid! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jlhill0801 0 Posted July 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) He's telling me it's converted as far as accepting the larger mags. Which is obvious because it has one on it. It is a 2011 model. If you saying I can get on online unconverted with a chaos. Isn't my deal better than that. I'm getting just an unconverted Saiga 12 with a $100 drum, an $80 laser light combo and a $50 aftermarket stock. I can get a stock Saiga online for $650 if in stock then you add the $100 drum, any after market stock I get is going to be over $50. Then I have to pay to have it converted which is like $75. This saiga is ready to go blast out 20 rd drums right now. Y are y'all saying its such a bad deal. Edited July 7, 2012 by Jlhill0801 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 He's telling me it's converted as far as accepting the larger mags. Which is obvious because it has one on it. It is a 2011 model. If you saying I can get on online unconverted with a chaos. Isn't my deal better than that. I'm getting just an unconverted Saiga 12 with a $100 drum, an $80 laser light combo and a $50 aftermarket stock. I can get a stock Saiga online for $650 if in stock then you add the $100 drum, any after market stock I get is going to be over $50. Then I have to pay to have it converted which is like $75. This saiga is ready to go blast out 20 rd drums right now. Y are y'all saying its such a bad deal. we dont usually pay folks to convert our guns, we prefer to do it ourselves. but if you want to fork out the cash, then go for it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mixednuttz 123 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Any Saiga can accept a drum as it is shipped from the factory, without modification. The seller did nothing except buy a drum mag, place the front of the mag in the well, and rock it back into the latch. He's trying to find someone who is unfamiliar with the Saiga and rip them off IMO. It would be inadvisable to put that drum in an S12 that doesn't meet 922. You risk running afoul of the law. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pjd393 18 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Any Saiga can accept a drum as it is shipped from the factory, without modification. The seller did nothing except buy a drum mag, place the front of the mag in the well, and rock it back into the latch. He's trying to find someone who is unfamiliar with the Saiga and rip them off IMO. It would be inadvisable to put that drum in an S12 that doesn't meet 922. You risk running afoul of the law. 2nd on what "mixednuttz" said. The *ONLY* modification to get the drum mag to work would be a little bit of potential filing on the mag itself, not the gun. That is VERY common with all drum mags (a little filing to fit) because different model year Saiga's have slight inconsistencies. Honestly, I'm a newbie here but I have learned a TON in the last month thanks to the boundless knowledge and selfless generosity of the Forum members who have spent their life's time to document, teach and give amazing advice!!! You have a bit of skepticism in your posts but I promise you, every person who has posted in this thread is spot on and you would be wise to take the advice that you asked for. 922r: What I know from the members here. It's not what you add, but what you remove and replace. You need to remove 5 russian made parts and replace with American made parts for mags larger than 5 rounds!!! The magazines count as 3 parts The butt stock and pistol grip combo count as 1 part because you only have to remove the Russian butt stock for that. *** UNLESS HE HAS REPLACED THE FORE ARM, FLASH HIDER/BRAKE, PUC OR GAS PLUG HE IS STILL SHY 1 PART AND IN VIOLATION OF ATF 922r *** To me, this dealer may be nice and very knowledgeable about many weapons but I feel he knows VERY little about the Saiga and it is a bit of an unusual animal. It is VERY easy to learn and work on. I bet a full 20 rounds of low brass Federal Wal-mart will not run through the drum with FTE's or possibly FTF's. *** IF *** it did, you might have a nice gun on your hands but not for $799. I'd work him down to $700 or $725 max. I am only passing on what I have learned over the last month for what it's worth but I would listen to the advice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 That chaos rail retails for $199 alone. That intrafuse stock is flimsy crap with 3" shells. And i promise that " light and laser" at $80 arent going to hold up to the 12ga recoil for long. And as others already pointed out it takes ZERO modification to the gun to make it capable of accepting drums. Just minor filing to thedrum itself due to variations in tolerances by Izmash. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BOB A. BOOEY 45 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 I would run for your life. This guy either doesnt know what converted is or is lying. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) He's telling me it's converted as far as accepting the larger mags. Which is obvious because it has one on it. It is a 2011 model. If you saying I can get on online unconverted with a chaos. Isn't my deal better than that. I'm getting just an unconverted Saiga 12 with a $100 drum, an $80 laser light combo and a $50 aftermarket stock. I can get a stock Saiga online for $650 if in stock then you add the $100 drum, any after market stock I get is going to be over $50. Then I have to pay to have it converted which is like $75. This saiga is ready to go blast out 20 rd drums right now. Y are y'all saying its such a bad deal. The stock is garbage and the light/laser combo is likely garbage as well. Do not consider them when you assess the pricing. So, he is offering a 2011 S12 (which is indeed desirable) and a drum (MD-20, hopefully) for $799 + tax + call. You would be better served getting this for $779 (with the discount), $25 shipping, and transfer/call. I am your friend, you can thank me later http://www.atlanticf...roduct1176.aspx Edited July 7, 2012 by evlblkwpnz 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RedChallenger 149 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) I agree with all the aforementioned. Plus I would bet the rail-light-laser are all UTG stuff. The listed AF S12 link is the way to go because of the sights and hinged cover for that price. Edited July 7, 2012 by RedChallenger 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 I agree with all the aforementioned. Plus I would bet the rail-light-laser are all UTG stuff. The listed AF S12 link is the way to go because of the sights and hinged cover for that price. I figured if he was willing to spend $800, that would be a lot of truly nice Saiga 12 for the money.... and no garbage items that he will have to list and ship. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jlhill0801 0 Posted July 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 Thanks for all the help. Sorry for the skepticism. It's my first time writing on a forum. You guys have been a lot of help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonblack 9 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) 922r compliance is not your problem, as you didn't construct it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe 922r has nothing to do with who constructed/built the Saiga 12. If you have more than 10 of the parts on the list, you can not use "high capacity" (over 5 rounds) magazines without being in violation, no matter who did/didn't do anything to the gun. In other words, you can't take a box stock Saiga 12 and use a high capacity magazine with it, otherwise they would just ship a high capacity magazine with the gun. Even more, you can't add a pistol grip of any sort ("converted" or cheesy bolt-on) and use the gun with a high-cap magazine without replacing some of the 922r "listed" parts with US made counterparts. I am open to being corrected. So, if I am wrong, please explain what I am missing. Thanks jonblack Edited July 8, 2012 by jonblack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 922r compliance is not your problem, as you didn't construct it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe 922r has nothing to do with who constructed/built the Saiga 12. If you have more than 10 of the parts on the list, you can not use "high capacity" (over 5 rounds) magazines without being in violation, no matter who did/didn't do anything to the gun. I am open to being corrected. So, if I am wrong, please explain what I am missing. Thanks jonblack Shandlanos is correct. Here is a good source of reliable information on the subject. See page 2. http://www.nfatca.or...ewsltr_1q12.pdf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 Converted as far as accepting high-cap mags???? This guy has no clue what he's talking about, they ALL accept high-cap mags. The point is if they can LEGALLY. Without a conversion, that's still possible but not "right". Here's my guess on it. If you choose to take the deal and pay him what he's asking, your next thread here will be about getting the weapon to function with the cheap bulk-pack stuff because $20 per drum is getting expensive. Everyone will tell you to get the bolt polished, and they'll tell you to convert the weapon because re-profiling and polishing the hammer face and the trigger is easier when you can remove and re-install the parts. It's also easier to handle with the pistol grip in the right spot, trigger is a lot nicer too without all of the fulcrums and levers in the way... The true conversion will bring in some question about the current stock and you'll probably choose to change that anyway. You might go "full on tactical" and throw a quad rail on it, only to pull it off when you find out that it's hindering the weapon's performance. Somewhere along in there you'll probably have to drift the pins in the gas block and ream out the gas ports to make it function better with bulk pack. Then you'll have a pretty good running weapon without any of that crap that was on it when you got it. Or you could just buy a NEW '11 model with the extended barrel hood and a better chance of getting four correctly sized ports and go from there. Your call. I happen to prefer the '08 and '09 models because I'm very familiar with them and I make them run well, but it's more about the challenge for me than about having a good running weapon for as cheap as possible. I like to tinker with things. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 Converted as far as accepting high-cap mags???? This guy has no clue what he's talking about, they ALL accept high-cap mags. The point is if they can LEGALLY. Without a conversion, that's still possible but not "right". Here's my guess on it. If you choose to take the deal and pay him what he's asking, your next thread here will be about getting the weapon to function with the cheap bulk-pack stuff because $20 per drum is getting expensive. Everyone will tell you to get the bolt polished, and they'll tell you to convert the weapon because re-profiling and polishing the hammer face and the trigger is easier when you can remove and re-install the parts. It's also easier to handle with the pistol grip in the right spot, trigger is a lot nicer too without all of the fulcrums and levers in the way... The true conversion will bring in some question about the current stock and you'll probably choose to change that anyway. You might go "full on tactical" and throw a quad rail on it, only to pull it off when you find out that it's hindering the weapon's performance. Somewhere along in there you'll probably have to drift the pins in the gas block and ream out the gas ports to make it function better with bulk pack. Then you'll have a pretty good running weapon without any of that crap that was on it when you got it. Or you could just buy a NEW '11 model with the extended barrel hood and a better chance of getting four correctly sized ports and go from there. Your call. I happen to prefer the '08 and '09 models because I'm very familiar with them and I make them run well, but it's more about the challenge for me than about having a good running weapon for as cheap as possible. I like to tinker with things. What he said! ^^^ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Goose 95 Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) He's telling me it's converted as far as accepting the larger mags. Which is obvious because it has one on it. It is a 2011 model. If you saying I can get on online unconverted with a chaos. Isn't my deal better than that. I'm getting just an unconverted Saiga 12 with a $100 drum, an $80 laser light combo and a $50 aftermarket stock. I can get a stock Saiga online for $650 if in stock then you add the $100 drum, any after market stock I get is going to be over $50. Then I have to pay to have it converted which is like $75. This saiga is ready to go blast out 20 rd drums right now. Y are y'all saying its such a bad deal. There are some rifles being imported these days that can only accept single stack mags with out having the port on the reciever opend up or "converted". This might be the wool he's trying to pull over your head. But all S12 mags become "single stack" at the point that fits in the gun, be it drums or the much anticipated double stacks that we all await on fainted breathe. With that said, find out which drum is coming with the gun. If its and MD20, go ahead and call the guy a dumbass for calling it converted and haggle with him. If its something called a Wraith Maker, and looks like two hub caps with shot shells pressed between them, than he might mean that the gun has had a "reliability package" done by the people who make that drum. I won't get in to who they are or why you should run, and run as fast as you can, I think it's best you discover the drama of Alliance Armarment on your own. Trust me the threads telling this epic story are not hard to find here. spelling edit Edited July 10, 2012 by Goose 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TORKIT 20 Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I am about to purchase a saiga 12 from a dealer in town. He says it's converted but the pistol grip a trigger have not been moved forward. But it also has a 20 rd drum on it and shoots with it on. Any ideas on what I'm looking at? Thanks Get us a picture. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nipper2u 101 Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 You guys are awesome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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