<3 MSA so far..

[VladTepes 160]

I was a little apprehensive about doing this

 

I made you do it..... lol

[G O B 3,516]

This Grumpy Old Bastard is saving his centavos and ducats.

I NEED an S-.223 with a B.A.S.T.A.R.D. on that bastard for the Grumpy Old Bastard!

[su16a 84]

I was a little apprehensive about doing this

 

I made you do it..... lol

Yes, you did.. It is like when I said I wasn’t going to convert my 308 and you replied back saying it would only be a matter time once I seen the results of the converted 223, we know how that turned out....

[Brian M1 50]

 

What is that thing? ... a combined trigger guard/pg base/magwell??

 

Something called the B.A.S.T.A.R.D. .... in addition to the above features it will also feature a LRBHO. Designed to use AR Mags, parts and grips. Wipe the bottom of your .223 then bolt this up in place. Plentiful AR parts and accessories with the reliability of the AK Action.

 

Bastard adj.

1. Born of unwed parents; illegitimate.

2. Not genuine; spurious: a bastard style of architecture.

3. Resembling a known kind or species but not truly such.

 

Bastardize vb

1. to debase; modify - cause to change; make different; cause a transformation;

 

When you say "wipe the bottom of your Saiga and bolt this up"... did you forget the "dremel the heck out of it" part, or is this version TRUELY a bolt on?

[VladTepes 160]

 

What is that thing? ... a combined trigger guard/pg base/magwell??

 

Something called the B.A.S.T.A.R.D. .... in addition to the above features it will also feature a LRBHO. Designed to use AR Mags, parts and grips. Wipe the bottom of your .223 then bolt this up in place. Plentiful AR parts and accessories with the reliability of the AK Action.

 

Bastard adj.

1. Born of unwed parents; illegitimate.

2. Not genuine; spurious: a bastard style of architecture.

3. Resembling a known kind or species but not truly such.

 

Bastardize vb

1. to debase; modify - cause to change; make different; cause a transformation;

 

When you say "wipe the bottom of your Saiga and bolt this up"... did you forget the "dremel the heck out of it" part, or is this version TRUELY a bolt on?

 

you will obviously have to remove all the factory parts that are in the way.. then install..

[Brian M1 50]

My point was that making a new "combined" unit (mag well, trigger guard, AR grip adapter) will not generate any new sales. Those options are ALREADY available to anyone who wishes to make those mods. I think what's limiting (and will always) sales is the "cutting/dremeling" that is required to install. Few people are willing to cut up a functioning rifle to fit mags that are no more reliable than the ones they are currently using, AND add to that their current mags will not fit as securely as they did before. NO go.

I think what people are wanting is a TRUE "bolt on" (NOT "bolt on" + mod the heck out it) conversion that will NOT alter the original rifle in the least.

I think the AK crowd would love to be able to use AR mags... but NOT at the expense of modding their beloved (and 100% reliable) rifles.

Make a TRUE "bolt on" (which means NO dremeling) mag well for AK's, and you'd have pure gold (as the owner could always unconvert back to factory style)!

[VladTepes 160]

My point was that making a new "combined" unit (mag well, trigger guard, AR grip adapter) will not generate any new sales. Those options are ALREADY available to anyone who wishes to make those mods. I think what's limiting (and will always) sales is the "cutting/dremeling" that is required to install. Few people are willing to cut up a functioning rifle to fit mags that are no more reliable than the ones they are currently using, AND add to that their current mags will not fit as securely as they did before. NO go.

I think what people are wanting is a TRUE "bolt on" (NOT "bolt on" + mod the heck out it) conversion that will NOT alter the original rifle in the least.

I think the AK crowd would love to be able to use AR mags... but NOT at the expense of modding their beloved (and 100% reliable) rifles.

Make a TRUE "bolt on" (which means NO dremeling) mag well for AK's, and you'd have pure gold (as the owner could always unconvert back to factory style)!

 

do you use the MSA adapter?

 

* My mags lock rock solid... and the mags I had before are a moot point because the ONLY 556 AK mag was the one I had that came with the Saiga.. which I will likely never even look at again..

 

* Once the bullet guide is installed it will be completely reliable (I have had 3 failures and they all revolve around the round not getting chambered.A bg will solve that.. you have to use a bullet guide anyway to use most 556 mag options out there..

 

* The cutting milling is minimal... I love it.. we are on a site where people cut the gun to hell to convert it.. and that is common so no one bats an eye.. in fact it is expected... people open up single stack guns to accept double stack mags.. and again.. no one even looks twice.. but modify it for AR mags and the world comes to a screeching halt.. if you have a brain.. and go slowly.. and keep the metal cool.. I really don't see an issue.. granted I don't have much range time with it yet but no kaboom... other people have been running it for a while without issue..

 

* AR mags are far faster than AK mags.. that was the draw for me.. a truly drop free mag swap with just the hit of a button...

 

* AR mags are cheaper.. and I already own a bunch so $80 on an adapter.. or $80 for three 556 AK mags...

 

 

your comments are amusing to say the least because you claim people wont do it because they dont want to mod their guns.. but just about everyone on this site has cut big chunks of metal off of their beloved guns... a saiga in factory form is %100 reliable.. why change it? because it is BETTER.. why cut the magwell? because after it is BETTER..

[avnate 335]

My point was that making a new "combined" unit (mag well, trigger guard, AR grip adapter) will not generate any new sales. Those options are ALREADY available to anyone who wishes to make those mods. I think what's limiting (and will always) sales is the "cutting/dremeling" that is required to install. Few people are willing to cut up a functioning rifle to fit mags that are no more reliable than the ones they are currently using, AND add to that their current mags will not fit as securely as they did before. NO go.

I think what people are wanting is a TRUE "bolt on" (NOT "bolt on" + mod the heck out it) conversion that will NOT alter the original rifle in the least.

I think the AK crowd would love to be able to use AR mags... but NOT at the expense of modding their beloved (and 100% reliable) rifles.

Make a TRUE "bolt on" (which means NO dremeling) mag well for AK's, and you'd have pure gold (as the owner could always unconvert back to factory style)!

 

Brian,

 

While I respect your opinion it's just never gonna happen. The Saiga trunnion has and will always be the limiting factor in the equation. It's a single stack trunnion import rifle. IF they'd open up the trunnion to true double stack MIL-spec like it should be then they wouldn't have to..... and they'd still be able to use a AR mag adapter. This isn't a Saiga only product. I think your opinions are over shadowed by the lack factual knowledge of other AK's, thinking the netured import version of the Saiga rifles you see in the US is the measuring stick by which we all should use. You'll find variances on the front trunnions of other AKs, namly the Bulgarian and Norinco. That's why people have to modify Bulgy mags to use in the Saiga. Isn't modifing the Saiga "status quo" here?

 

Reguarding your sales comment. Have you done market analysis and feedback sessions with customers? Lets stick to facts and not personal opinions. Half of the things you own today are derived from others pioneering and pushing the envelope. Raising customer expectations in products and services. From an economics point. Yes they can buy other parts and make it up. But at what price? What if I come in with a superior product at a savings to the customer? I'm not trying to sound harsh but I think you're full of opinion based commentary about your world and not that of the world as a whole. From my view you're missing a lot of factors in your thought.....

 

We all have different taste in things. I just happent to want a all-in-one solution that was designed to work out of the box. Not multiple parts with design tolerances that may or may not interfere with other parts. Asthetics also play a huge roll in sales and marketing. This product hits all of the key features I outlined at the begining.

 

Fit

Function

Features

Ergonomics

Economical

Asthetics

 

Lastly. Show me a true functiong auto LRBHO (last round bolt hold open) on the market for this rifle.

 

Cheers,

Nathan

[su16a 84]

My point was that making a new "combined" unit (mag well, trigger guard, AR grip adapter) will not generate any new sales. Those options are ALREADY available to anyone who wishes to make those mods. I think what's limiting (and will always) sales is the "cutting/dremeling" that is required to install. Few people are willing to cut up a functioning rifle to fit mags that are no more reliable than the ones they are currently using, AND add to that their current mags will not fit as securely as they did before. NO go.

I think what people are wanting is a TRUE "bolt on" (NOT "bolt on" + mod the heck out it) conversion that will NOT alter the original rifle in the least.

I think the AK crowd would love to be able to use AR mags... but NOT at the expense of modding their beloved (and 100% reliable) rifles.

Make a TRUE "bolt on" (which means NO dremeling) mag well for AK's, and you'd have pure gold (as the owner could always unconvert back to factory style)!

 

I do agree this isn’t for everyone. Once you make these mods there are permanent and you can never go back to the old configuration. Vladtepes, myself and those who have completed the mod before us knew this going in. The flipside is if you own a Saiga chances are you already converted your Saiga and those mods are permanent as well. So in my view is this is only an optional modification however if you are going to follow your own logic by saying “NOT at the expense of modding their beloved and 100% reliable rifles” perhaps you should leave your rifle in the “out of the box” condition and not perform any mods.

 

I don’t think you ever see bolt on/bolt off adapter that does not require some alterations to the gun for a few reasons. The first would be cost; you aren’t going to get anything for $79 to perform this task. Secondly to get the AR mag in position you are only removing what is necessary to put the AR mag and adapter in place. I suppose anything is possible but not milling the receiver and trying to accomplish what you are asking could only result in some complex Rube Goldberg contraption the way I see it. I think we could all agree the rifle is supposed to be simple.

 

Ultimately what it came down to for me is the lack of horror stories such as YouTube videos of receivers splitting in half as a result of this mod. We are not talking about someone that made a forum thread out of their self-inflicted issue because he (or she) didn’t follow instructions and trashed their receiver. Prior to this mod I searched for real damage like trashed receivers as the direct result of the mod but didn’t find anything. All I found were a few happy people on YouTube cracking off rounds via their new adapters. I have no regrets about the mod and now I don’t have to be annoyed with buying clunky overpriced Saiga 223 but YMMV. My biggest problem is I'm not out shooting it today....

[Brian M1 50]

I totally agree and am glad that option (for AR mags) is out there! It's just that MSA's post made it sound like the new version was a true "bolt on", when in fact it requires dremeling (like the current version). Nothing wrong with that, as people mod their AK's everyday, I just wanted to clarify as to whether it was a true bolt on, or a "mod to fit" (which is the accurate term for both versions). The idea of a true bolt in would lure buyers who would otherwise not buy it (knowing it required rifle modding), so I felt it was important to clear that up.

[avnate 335]

Brian,

The meat of this post is about modifing your trunnion to fit AR ags. That given.... Its established already you have to modify a trunnion to accept AR mags. With that given the next logical step is to wipe the bottom and bolt up. Didnt saga Fan ask if it was compatible or something to the effect? Where did i say this is a new version that replaces the current?

 

I understand your posts but your wording to get the clarification you seek is whats under fire.... Ultimately this is a modding forum. If your here its because you either have or will modify you saiga. The true product announcement and description on my site will disclaimer just like the AR adapter.

[VladTepes 160]

I totally agree and am glad that option (for AR mags) is out there! It's just that MSA's post made it sound like the new version was a true "bolt on", when in fact it requires dremeling (like the current version). Nothing wrong with that, as people mod their AK's everyday, I just wanted to clarify as to whether it was a true bolt on, or a "mod to fit" (which is the accurate term for both versions). The idea of a true bolt in would lure buyers who would otherwise not buy it (knowing it required rifle modding), so I felt it was important to clear that up.

 

 

it is the mags that hit the trunion.. not the adapter... so if you want to use AR mags in a saiga.. you are going to be cutting the gun to some extent no matter what..

[G O B 3,516]

I love the idea of a one piece adapter/TG. The extra bracing of the one piece design is exactly what is needed to make a solid reliable unit.

[VladTepes 160]

home made bullet guide..

 

about 30 more rounds..

 

no failures to report..

[Brian M1 50]

Brian,

The meat of this post is about modifing your trunnion to fit AR ags. That given.... Its established already you have to modify a trunnion to accept AR mags. With that given the next logical step is to wipe the bottom and bolt up. Didnt saga Fan ask if it was compatible or something to the effect? Where did i say this is a new version that replaces the current?

 

I understand your posts but your wording to get the clarification you seek is whats under fire.... Ultimately this is a modding forum. If your here its because you either have or will modify you saiga. The true product announcement and description on my site will disclaimer just like the AR adapter.

 

I think you failed to see my point. Yes, this forum is full of modding, and yes everyone (who knows about) the MSA adapter knows it requires dremeling. However... I was simply asking about your NEW version, as you claimed it was a "bolt on". That may be somewhat true, but misleading (since similar to the current version). It IS a bolt on, AFTER modding the trunion. I simply asked about the NEW version and was uncertain if it required modding or not. If you had noticed, I asked if the modding was necessary, to which everyone jumped on me (why?, I have no idea. People get all kinds of defensive around here when you question something).

Nothing was described about how the new version would install, so I asked.

[avnate 335]

We'll just agree to disagree. I just think the verbiage you used is where this went South. Rather than engaging in opinions with others about a product they are not privied to, waiting for my official response would have been a good idea. But no worries.... It's all good. I'll just make note to be more specific with my replies as not to cause confusion. So with that... My official answer to your question

 

If you have a current MSA adapter and want to upgrade to the BASTARD. You wipe the bottom and bolt it up. (as it pertains to this thread) The LRBHO portion is subject to tight lip policy till it's released.

 

If you are starting fresh.... then you will have to modify the trunnion (as needed with any AR mag upgrade with Saiga .223 rifles) before bolting up.

 

Let me add that this is not a replacement AR adapter version. This is a new product with new key features. They have two different functions and appeal to two different market types. One you swap back and forth the other your all AR all the time. And with that you get the LRBHO feature.

 

Nathan

[Brian M1 50]

We'll just agree to disagree. I just think the verbiage you used is where this went South. Rather than engaging in opinions with others about a product they are not privied to, waiting for my official response would have been a good idea. But no worries.... It's all good. I'll just make note to be more specific with my replies as not to cause confusion. So with that... My official answer to your question

 

If you have a current MSA adapter and want to upgrade to the BASTARD. You wipe the bottom and bolt it up. (as it pertains to this thread) The LRBHO portion is subject to tight lip policy till it's released.

 

If you are starting fresh.... then you will have to modify the trunnion (as needed with any AR mag upgrade with Saiga .223 rifles) before bolting up.

 

Let me add that this is not a replacement AR adapter version. This is a new product with new key features. They have two different functions and appeal to two different market types. One you swap back and forth the other your all AR all the time. And with that you get the LRBHO feature.

 

Nathan

 

Thank you! Yes, that was very clear. Looks like a great product and I'm sure those willing to do the mods will be very happy! Thank you again for clearing that up.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Brian M1

[Eureka 0]

Nathan, I have a few questions, btw hello forum.

 

Rifle:

Saiga .223/5.56

B.F.I Steel Mag

 

Purchased your adapter, and took it to my Journeyman machinist Gunsmith, who looked at me like I had just spat in his chew.

 

He did the milling, for the Adapter to lock in he only had to go in .88/.89 and told me he had to remove some either side of the front lockin as well.

 

Now from all I have heard and seen, the top of the AR mag should sit flush up against the bottom of the bolt riding rails, mine is at least 1/8 to 3/16th lower, the Adapter is fully inserted and flush, and the mag is locked in tight and clean (drops out at touch of button)

 

Q1: Is this supposed to be the case

 

Seeing I do not have a bullet guide in yet, I am stove piping to each side of the chamber (very damn gently - to check feed) as the "kick" guide in the mag lip is way forward.

 

Q2: is the bullet feed required, I see so many that say they are not installing this and are not having this issue

 

Observation by measurement shows all is connected in the way it should be, flush and clean.

 

Thanks for the time to reply if you can, if you wish pics I can comply as the milling job actually shows well I think.

 

EL

[avnate 335]

So from what I am reading is the adapter is sitting low... not hugging up to the bottom of the receiver. Therefore the mags are lower than as well. So yes the first thing lets get a BG in there to assist. Once I see pics of the milling I should be able to get a better grasp of where to go from here. Make sure you get pics from the top down and bottom up. Also do the factory mags still work?

 

Nathan

 

 

OH and while I'm here. The new tactical mechs are about ready and we will be shipping another batch of AR adapters this week

[Brian M1 50]

While I'm not a fan of the current design, I AM looking forward to the BASTARD version! It would be nice to be able to have a "poor man's" Sig 556 (the concept of AR lower to AK uppper is nothing new. The Sig 556 is precisely that). With Sig 556's going for upwards of $1200 these days (used) it would be nice to be able to turn our Saiga 223's into something similar! The Saiga will never have the selector switch of the AR/Sig556, but for the savings, I'm willing to sacrifice!

MSA, any update on a release date for the BASTARD??

[avnate 335]

@Brian Which current design is it you don't like? I am going to invite a few people to voice an opinion on the final design of the BASTARD. Giving the customer a voice in what they want it to look like. I'll offer up 3 designs to choose from and the winner is what will go into production. I'm going to close the MSA forum this week and when the TAKD goes in I will put it up there.

[VladTepes 160]

@Brian Which current design is it you don't like? I am going to invite a few people to voice an opinion on the final design of the BASTARD. Giving the customer a voice in what they want it to look like. I'll offer up 3 designs to choose from and the winner is what will go into production. I'm going to close the MSA forum this week and when the TAKD goes in I will put it up there.

 

I think that when the new product is available you should probably let me upgrade to it at little to no charge so I can install it.. and take picture of it.. and review it.. people would like that.. hint.. hint..

[avnate 335]

Funny you mention that.... I have been entertaining the idea of a trade up program. But I need to think about it a bit more and talk it out with Will. We may just have something....

[vulcan16 971]

@Brian Which current design is it you don't like? I am going to invite a few people to voice an opinion on the final design of the BASTARD. Giving the customer a voice in what they want it to look like. I'll offer up 3 designs to choose from and the winner is what will go into production. I'm going to close the MSA forum this week and when the TAKD goes in I will put it up there.

Let me know when the new design is ready,I'm going to let Keith at TAC47 install it.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

To chime in I found a bullet guide was needed myself, but I can't say im disappointed in the design. I would rather have a longer Magwell, and funnel, but i plan on just adding that myself. How does your aluminum weld?

 

Stock mags lock up tight still, and I have to have mags dropped to remove the adapter

 

Again, happy with the product, just looking for some advice while giving my early findings.

[avnate 335]

Should weld up just fine... We extended the magwell on the BASTARD and flared the lips of the well. This should make a lot of people happy.

 

Just for development input how much further would you like to see the well extended?

[Nailbomb 10,221]

On the standard model? drop it till its flush with the bottom of the magazine catch mount(not the lever). It will smooth things out and make it more aesteticly pleasing allowing the lines of the gun to flow more smoothly. I would leave the shorter angle to the front like you have.

 

You obviously did something similar on the full lower conversion.

 

I planned on cutting a funnel out of 1/4" plate, I figure it will get me where Im looking to go.

[Brian M1 50]

@Brian Which current design is it you don't like? I am going to invite a few people to voice an opinion on the final design of the BASTARD. Giving the customer a voice in what they want it to look like. I'll offer up 3 designs to choose from and the winner is what will go into production. I'm going to close the MSA forum this week and when the TAKD goes in I will put it up there.

I'm not a fan of the model that snaps in like an AK mag, but I'd be VERY interested in a more permanent one, such as the bolt up version mentioned (the version that replaces the entire underside: mag well, mag catch, grip mount, etc)! I can't wait to see this thing!!

[G O B 3,516]

A monolithic HG,magwell TG and PG mount would be outstanding!

[madriverarms 1]

Glad to see some news on the B.A.S.T.A.R.D. Couple of questions though. What happened to all the other threads about this item. There was one that had been going for a couple of years and now it's been deleted. Why so long to bring this item to the market? I seem to remember Nathan saying quite some time ago that the basic design was done. Then there was talk about the LRBHO and the project seemed to become vaporware. I have been anxiously waiting for something like this to come to market as it is the missing link for those wanting to do caliber conversions. Hell I don't care about a LRBHO I just want an easy way to fix a 6.5 Grendel magazine into an AK.

 

-MRA