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@MRA The issue of everything revolved around the LRBHO.... There was a patent lawsuit that directly impacted the design of the BASTARD. Lawyers are not cheap... and the longer they drag it out the more they make.

 

@ GOB.... I've tossed around an all in one Rail/BASTARD combo..... never know. For now I need to get this out as is.

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God this section makes my head hurt.....   I have a suggestion   As bad as I hate "polls"... I think it would be cool to see a 'question / answer' poll here... in which ONLY people who actually HA

Exactly, dead horse is right. To sum it all up I think some of us are just a little weary of the dead-ended/round & round/ Think-Tank BS/should I or shouldn’t/ great adapter debate that took place

just got back from the range and put the first batch of ammo through my AR magwell equipped Saiga.... flawless with the exception of a couple nose dives... a bullet guide should resolve all issues...

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UPDATE...

 

MILD chamber bevel.. and when I say mild.. I mean MILD..

homemade bullet guide...

 

about 75 rounds.. rapid fire.. rapid mag changes %100 reliability...

 

no signs of stress or cracking...

 

 

I LOVE this setup..

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So from what I am reading is the adapter is sitting low... not hugging up to the bottom of the receiver. Therefore the mags are lower than as well. So yes the first thing lets get a BG in there to assist. Once I see pics of the milling I should be able to get a better grasp of where to go from here. Make sure you get pics from the top down and bottom up. Also do the factory mags still work?

 

Nathan

 

 

OH and while I'm here. The new tactical mechs are about ready and we will be shipping another batch of AR adapters this week

 

 

So from what I am reading is the adapter is sitting low... not hugging up to the bottom of the receiver. Therefore the mags are lower than as well. So yes the first thing lets get a BG in there to assist. Once I see pics of the milling I should be able to get a better grasp of where to go from here. Make sure you get pics from the top down and bottom up. Also do the factory mags still work?

 

Nathan

 

 

Thank you for the prompt reply Nathan,

 

I may have been somewhat less than accurate in my description, I shall rectify that now

 

The adapter, of which I am thrilled with BTW, is sitting flush, pics show it about 2mm out as I was pulling and pushing to get pics.

 

rear "landing against locking tab body could use a tweek but ATM it is tight and locked in fully and flush as best it can with bottom of body.

 

The BG, yes, already ordered and is to be put in this week I think.

 

Pics follow , sorry to all for the sad lack of pic taking at the level I have seen from others, I shall get a tripod and trigger so I can do better ones if required.

 

If measurements are needed between top of mag "lips" to underside of bolt rails, I can do them as well to additionally clarify.

 

ELpost-43545-0-80980100-1343343433_thumb.jpgpost-43545-0-88988400-1343343436.jpgpost-43545-0-58631200-1343343439.jpgpost-43545-0-78597700-1343343442_thumb.jpgpost-43545-0-96899200-1343343445.jpgpost-43545-0-30703200-1343343449.jpgpost-43545-0-61381500-1343343452_thumb.jpgpost-43545-0-27338300-1343343455.jpgpost-43545-0-18559500-1343343458.jpgpost-43545-0-84989500-1343343462.jpgpost-43545-0-71396700-1343343695_thumb.jpgpost-43545-0-85283300-1343343698_thumb.jpgpost-43545-0-23339600-1343343701.jpgpost-43545-0-54735900-1343343703.jpg

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Thank you Nathan,

 

Got to admit, after all the "hard linedpress" you were having for so long, I can confirm I got my order in quick time, it was as I felt it should be, and I feel that "tweeking" it to suit after milling may be in order.

 

I shall install dinzzag's BG, I ordered the kit for my round trunion.

 

In the mean time I shall also look at what spec variations there are in different mags I come across, see if I can find some that fit up higher (doubtful but shall look anyway).

 

When this is all tuned up I am going to be a happy camper, as I think your efforts and product are game changing.

 

Well done for all your hard works.

 

Next I will be looking for something for the 308..... ;-)

 

 

EL

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I'm glad you're happy with it. As long as people realize the adapter is in high demand and we are not a mass producing factory then everything will work out. As things keep growing we will expand more and more to accomidate.

 

Let me know how it comes out....

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To those who are looking to fit this adapter,

 

 

I read all the older articles, and studied all the comments etc, good and bad.

 

 

Well the only way to say something is good or bad is to put your money down and find out.

 

 

1) Here is what I did, I found a Journeyman machinist , not just a guy with some machinery and some skills, or not.

 

 

Now before I get flamed out the window for the last comment, I said as I did to show I was thinking of the SHTF scenario should I screw up the machining. I am sure, and know many fine people with skills and tools to do this work, I just did not go that route.

 

 

As an aside, if you use someone, go look at their other works and results, ask the locals in the area how good they are, did it all come in line when their stuff was done etc.

 

 

2) Next I looked at mags, well that is a list a mile long and many are "recommended/preferred"

 

 

My choice, go grab the first one that fitted into the adapter, and set about using that.... it was $11 steel, and I had no history on it except it was the first one I picked up out of a tray full of odds and ends.

 

 

My thoughts on this was that if a random one can be made to work, then those recommended etc, would also work.

 

 

SHTF thinking time again, you do not know what mag you will pick up in trade or barter, so lets see if anything (well sort of) will work... helped me think of it as not becoming locked into one specific mag, thus just trading one Saiga factory locked in only use, for an specific AR make use.... damn even I think that was all convoluted as a comment.... see what thinking gets me.

 

 

 

 

3) Time to sweat a lot, the machinist did not want me taking pics as he did his work, okay, I can understand that, sort of, so I was sweating harder now... price to do the job $200 - wow, that hurt, but, I did a trade out and that was washed out. I think it being his first one done, he was trying to focus on what he was doing, not trying to get a pictorial done if he screwed up and owed me a new rifle.

 

 

4) Get the rifle back and cycle it "slowly" to see if it stove pipes the rounds, where it sets, how it locks in, if the receiver fails off due to a poor effort or a cluster job being done.

 

 

5) Panic as it does not feed, does not look to go in higher, does not work as I think it should... did i mention panic....

 

 

Okay, I started to think of who could make a new Rear Trunnion, fast....... damn it all I was so pissed, but, I came here and read over all I had read again, looked at pics and replies by Nathan (designer and manufacturer of the adapter).

 

 

6) Got my forum name registered, came and asked the big questions...... help!!!

 

 

I have been on a few forums, and tried to contact several people over the years on product they made and i used or sought to use....... most replies were boilerplate and non committal..... Nathan's was not (as you have seen).

 

 

7) take advice given, get bullet guide, ask more questions should I still have issues.

 

 

I know that this sounds lame, but actually, seeing the 223/5.56 is a weird assed animal that can, and has been made with so many variations in spec as to receiver fit out, I believe that the newer one I have is just another variation.

 

 

Advice, my 0.0002 cents worth (accounting for tax) is that you do as you feel comfortable with, be ready for anything, and do not give up, we know why we want the AR mag swap out, it is not because we like the initials.

 

 

In closing this wordy comment set, thanks to Nathan, and those others who replied to my questions, I do not get a cent for promoting the adapter, I would not take it anyway, why make a buck off someone elses sweat and hard work.

 

 

If all else fails and my specs do not fit for using the adapter, that was My choice, and I did so as an adult, it has nothing to do with the adapter not being functional as defined. Nor shall I be crying and bitching in a forum over something that is My choice.

 

 

respects and regards

 

 

EL

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Updated,

 

Went and got myself a TAPCO 30 and a PMAG standard

 

Fitting PMAG

 

Well that was easy, fed into the chamber like a charm, no BR... yes, everyone said it would, it does.

 

Fitting TAPCO

 

Now this is interesting, it is wider and deeper than the PMAG, in fact, it is tight all round, then I see the issues I can resolve to make it slide in and out with ease.

 

Each coner of the Adapter is actually "outset" from the inner mag well dimensions.... Not by much, but the TAPCO is well fatter in the hole..... and is marked on each corner with the line from the drilling line.

 

Technical description by braille, typing by drunken sea gnome.

 

Depth x Width of each mag

 

B.F.I. Windham, ME

 

2.534 x 0.885

 

PMAG

 

2.535 x 0.880

 

TAPCO

 

2.544 x 0.887

 

 

With a ramp I think the Tapco will work okay, unless someone has got som good reasons why using the TAPCO is a fail?

 

Replies appreciated.

 

EL

 

 

 

 

 

post-43545-0-67309300-1343413672_thumb.jpgpost-43545-0-53085000-1343413674.jpg

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that is an amazingly detailed process...

 

I took an old beat to hell dremel.. a $12 cutting bit.. some oil.. and an afternoon..

 

no issues.. just a lot of test fitting.. glad it worked out for you..

 

 

UMMS... Not quite, but TY for the congrats Vlad

 

I am trying to show that the process is not just a simple one and that ppl can find all sorts of issues as they go about the "gutting"

 

lol... I like science and tech so the basics were that i try to at least show what is what, someone may have a bucket full of cheap mags AR style, and I am allowing them to see what fitted and what did not... or was tight...

 

Then from my own issues they can make a choice, not just jump in....., no offense meant btw, your gear updates have been worth my effort to compile my humble thoughts and efforts BTW.

 

The mag issues are cool, as I have not seen anyone measure and set about showing one V's another.. and what i found in the adapter..... what i do is grunt work, the real credit goes to those who developd the adapter, and they also can see and point to the stats and mentions and say, see, here is something odd, or here, this i ssomething in post QA that we need to addresss...

 

The outset corners, the indentation cutting into things or front catch lockout, odd things, but worthy of mention.... in my situation only

 

 

Sometimes, weird assed ppl like me who give all the grunt details thay can, influance those that make the product, and write the info to get it done... shrugs.... the adapter is good, they can sell 5 hundred of them, if they do it right and give a full on detailed info package which may be assisted by my crappy thoughts, then there is 5 million more to make... and THAT, is how initiative and innovation and American know how has built the best in the world...

 

and I was not even born here, (legally here for you suck butted batfe pay slaves who troll)...lol

 

cheers mate

 

EL

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@Eureka. The problem with AR mags is like anything else thats made. There are always tolerance variances from mag mfg to mag mfg. The AK platform has some of.... if not the loosest tolenances of any firearm and is true of most AK mags. The AR on the otherhand... tight... We're talking balls on. I have AR mags (STANAG 4179 and PMags) that fit and work like a champ in my ARs (Rock River Arms, Colt and DPMS) and others (Non STANAG 4179) not a chance in hell. STANAG 4179 is the standard that you and everyone should be looking for in a SHTF world.

 

Tapco is a good all round mag but (no offense to Bill @ Tapco) the AR mags dimensions are a slight tad over spec from the STANAG CAD files I'm looking at. But since they are poly they can be shaved to work. I might attribute this to the mold tolerances. Molds do loose tolerance over time as the mold is used/ages. The release angle and how they are oriented in the mold can affect the shape as they cure. So like anything, it's open to variation. I just feel Magpul keeps stricter tolerances thus our reccomended use of them. Plus just about every AR fan has Magpul mags or STANAG. Even some Mfgrs that are STANAG compliand may have other tolerance variances. Like weak springs or unstable followers... C-Products is one we found in testing. Their 30 rnd works but the 20 rnd has a follower that is unstable and will not.

 

With respect to SHTF cases... People just need to accept that it is what it is. Some mags will work and some won't. This is going to be applicable to AR gun owners as well. There are zero guarantees at the end of days.

 

Oh and $200 for the milling???? Jesus Titty Fk'n Christ! It takes all about 20-30 minutes. Standard shop charges should have fell in the $50-75 dollar a hour range. But it was done right from what I can see....

 

I hope this helps shed some light on the subject.

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Round 2- I had her this morning shooting the dreaded (for some rifles) Wolf ammo and no feed issues whatsoever. I was using WPA Military Classic .223 62GR. HP. I blew off 7 boxes of ammo between my SU16 and the mag-mod S223. Both guns ejected the empties like shit thru a Seagull, pretty happy so far…

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  • 4 weeks later...

100% with the exception of 3 failures and you hope it holds to gether and you have to add another tweek, but your happy? Boy do I love Guns don't you?

Why not just buy a cheep ar for 600 bucks? I know ,I know Because just because!

Good luck man I hope it works out for you.

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100% with the exception of 3 failures and you hope it holds to gether and you have to add another tweek, but your happy? Boy do I love Guns don't you?

Why not just buy a cheep ar for 600 bucks? I know ,I know Because just because!

Good luck man I hope it works out for you.

Why buy a cheap AR over a quality AK action? You really just said that?

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Why not just buy a cheep ar for 600 bucks? I know ,I know Because just because!

Trying to raise the bar are we? The fact is an AR couldn’t be a pimple on an AK’s azz. Everyone here knows that, it is the unwritten rule. I love my Saiga(s) and wouldn’t trade one for two AR’s but that is just me. I will tell you those VZ 58’s are starting to look like I need one, the VZ58 will beat the snot out of any AR and as luck would have the 556 model has the option of the Factory AR mag adapter so if Czech's are “adapting” that pretty much ends the discussion as to if this is a good idea or not regardless of the installation method, End of story.

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I was just kidding guys! I do not own a ar and never will, and I do love my Siaga. (ask my wife)

But my point is how far to we go?

We make the Siaga into an AR /Siaga?, and then we struggle with making it work?

By the the time you are done paying and playing with Mag Adapters you could have bought some Sure fire Mags and have a gun that is rock solid dependable.

But my point was that it is fun to do this. This is what Siagas are. A gun that we can modifiy into something that we think will be cool.

I have real alot about AR to AK mag conversions some good and some bad. I was thinking about it when my wife aked me why?

Does it not work correctly?. I had to answer with an Big YES. So I am not going there with my 223.

This is my only rifle , it is the only rifle I need and own. It shoots 556 nato like butter . I hope that all your mag conversions to AR mags works out and you have the confidence in your Guns that I have with mine.

I'm sorry for bringing up the buying a cheep AR statment , I'm new here but did not think it would be taken wrong, it was just a thinking point like my wife gave me.

Good luck to all and be safe

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Oh forgot! a VZ-58 is not an AK an AR is not an AK we can't mention ARs so Why is The 58 allowed?

Just a question . If you have ever shot one you would know what I am talking about (it is not even a variant). Siaga a better Cheaper gun.

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Oh forgot! a VZ-58 is not an AK an AR is not an AK we can't mention ARs so Why is The 58 allowed?

Just a question . If you have ever shot one you would know what I am talking about (it is not even a variant). Siaga a better Cheaper gun.

 

Simple, you are the one who drifted of the ranch with your AR comment so I only pointed out we aren’t the only ones that have adapted which is what the topic is about. Again a very simple rule that could be applied to anything, "just because they make it in your size doesn’t mean you need one". If you have specific question about the adapter, the install itself, a horror story to share or something of value to contribute I’d like to hear it otherwise this back and forth with “just buy an AR” crap or use the XXX mags is just more of the same BS or borderline trolling IMO.

Edited by Another-Saiga-Fan
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I was just kidding guys! I do not own a ar and never will, and I do love my Siaga. (ask my wife)

But my point is how far to we go?

We make the Siaga into an AR /Siaga?, and then we struggle with making it work?

By the the time you are done paying and playing with Mag Adapters you could have bought some Sure fire Mags and have a gun that is rock solid dependable.

But my point was that it is fun to do this. This is what Siagas are. A gun that we can modifiy into something that we think will be cool.

I have real alot about AR to AK mag conversions some good and some bad. I was thinking about it when my wife aked me why?

Does it not work correctly?. I had to answer with an Big YES. So I am not going there with my 223.

This is my only rifle , it is the only rifle I need and own. It shoots 556 nato like butter . I hope that all your mag conversions to AR mags works out and you have the confidence in your Guns that I have with mine.

I'm sorry for bringing up the buying a cheep AR statment , I'm new here but did not think it would be taken wrong, it was just a thinking point like my wife gave me.

Good luck to all and be safe

 

 

Personally I like the AR.... blastphemy I know. boxing.gif But it's also kind of like saying I like cars. There are just some cars I wouldn't own due to know issues.

 

At the $600 price point I think you will have a lot of issues (read first generation Hyudai type or a Yugo three cylinder LOL). Now say in the $1500-$2+K range (getting into Lewis Machine Tools and LaRue Tacticals and the big boys) then we are talking..... no comparison. More than likely you no longer have a direct impingement (DI)system which has had doccumented issues with fouling the internals. Then gas piston (GP) which you see in AKs and M14s gas externally. There are pros and cons to both types so I don't see the need in beating another dead horse the AR guys been for years. Which to some is similar to those here beating the horse about reliability of using an AR adapter in their Saiga or why don't you just use X Y Z magazine. As noted from above posts it can be perceived as trolling. People here love to mod it's what we do. Take a neutered AK and make it into something personal. When that personal relationship with ones rifle/firearm is questioned and opinions get involved this place turns South quick.

 

There is both convoluted information and opinions surrounding the topic. Yes, everyone here takes an inheirent risk in doing so. But that risk is mitigated or rendered null if the adapter is installed correctly. Reported cases of failures, personally researched by myself through telephone interviews, didn't involve my companies adapter. And I would not say it was because of anothers (Mikes). What I discovered to cause the failure was the way it was installed.... Not the design or the concept rather the execution of (installation). The Devil is in the details and I think it's a good idea that if you're in doubt don't. Have a professional do it. It's the difference of having a functional and reliable rifle and a rifle in need of repair. Those reported failures were due to a lack of understanding about metal temper and how brittle steel can get when temper is lost. It's all been covered before and beat the crap out of.... repeatedly.

 

Saigas to me (I do not talk for everyone here) are cheap, reliable and fun to modify. No they don't have the better MOA but as far as beat the shit out of reliability they can't be bested by the sub par AR but that's my take.

 

Like everything it's subjective when it comes to dressing up your personal rifle for one's personal taste and needs. Anyway welcome to the forum.

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Oh forgot! a VZ-58 is not an AK an AR is not an AK we can't mention ARs so Why is The 58 allowed?

Just a question . If you have ever shot one you would know what I am talking about (it is not even a variant). Siaga a better Cheaper gun.

Who said you can't mention ARs? I just don't like a quality AK being compared to a substandard AR. I like ARs, I own one.

 

I don't have a VZ, but I have handled and operated them. They operate off a simple and robust action with many of the things AK users strive for. Better ergonomics, light weight, a LRBHO while giving little to nothing up in reliability, but you are correct they do have a higher starting price point.

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100% with the exception of 3 failures and you hope it holds to gether and you have to add another tweek, but your happy? Boy do I love Guns don't you?

Why not just buy a cheep ar for 600 bucks? I know ,I know Because just because!

Good luck man I hope it works out for you.

 

I have an AR.. a quality one that I built.. it has over a couple thousand invested in it.. the gun runs great..

 

and NO.. no failures at this point (not even 3).. I ran another few hundred rounds through both my AR and AR mag equipped Saiga the other day.. both ran flawlessly....

 

why would it not hold together? I am close to a thousand rounds through it since the cutting of the trunion.. when I painted the gun I also painted the trunion.. I did this so I could observe where the stress is.. the idea is if there is a ton of stress somewhere.. if the trunion were to start to give.. the paint would show it.. it would crack.. or fracture.. there are literally NO signs of stress anywhere.. also when I look at the trunion I notice this.. the trunion is modified way in the rear.. not where the barrel is.. there is still a substantial amount of metal.. and honestly the more I evaluate the operation of the weapon the more I think it is a non issue..

 

the reason I do not own "just a cheap AR" is because I have purpose built guns that do specific things... the AK project is built with the hopes of being a low maintenance bury it in the ground pull it out and shoot gun.. my AR is pretty durable.. but does require some maintenance.. so far the AK has had ZERO passed its initial cleaning.. I am about 750 rounds in with NO cleaning... I hope to run the gun with zero maintenance for another few months.. to see if it is as reliable as my 7.62 gun was..

 

sure.. a $1600 AK is not for everyone but if the gun works how I expect it to... it will be worth that to me.. I would rather spend several thousand on a handful of guns that work exceptionally well, and fit every aspect that concerns me.. over having a few beater WASRs.. and a couple of $600 ARs...... my AR lower alone is more than $600...

 

and honestly.. assuming the modification is completely reliable (it has been for me)

 

you are an idiot if you can not see the value in utilizing a common inexpensive domestically produced magazine functioning in a drop free magazine system...

 

I mean how can you not understand...

*inexpensive magazine

*abundant magazine choices..

*common magazine with other weapon system

*drop free design

 

I can not understand what there is not to like..

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Seeing as two posts already went to "The Shithole" and deleted over the same lets keep this one civil. I think we can all agree there is a different driving force behind what each of us do with our Saigas. Jerry52 is new and may not understand the history of beating dead horses here. IF he sees it, he sees it. If not, then no worries. We all love our hobby....

 

This public service announcement was brought to you by beer. beer.gif

 

Have a safe Labor Day!

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