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Question For Tromix Monster Brake Users


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Gentlemen, I have just finished a full conversion on my S12 which includes: pistol grip, AR stock, tromix trigger group, recoil spring, gas port mods, ect., but now I am interested in adding a Tromix monster brake for the sole purpose of a little additional recoil reduction. I have spent numerous hours adjusting/modifying the gas system to successfully cycle 1100-1150 fps target/buckshot shells 100% of the time without FTEs with the stock 19" barrel. I would like to cut the barrel to 13" and add the Tromix 5.8" brake to keep me within the legal limit of 18" for a non sbs. Here are the questions at hand. Will doing this mod to my current S12 reduce the velocity enough to start causing FTEs again with my preferred 1100-1150 fps shells? Will I be required to enlarge the gas ports farther or undergo any others mods to the gas system?

 

The desired muzzle brake:

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-155/Tromix-Monster-Brake-Saiga/Detail

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"I would like to cut the barrel to 13" and add the Tromix 5.8" brake to keep me within the legal limit of 18" for a non sbs".

 

Better check with ATF NFA branch on that one.

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A reduction in velocity has nothing to do with reliability. However, a reduction in "dwell time" can effect reliability. It is really hard to say whether or not you will have to do more work to the gas system or not. It all depends on how far beyond the edge of reliability the weapon already is.

 

If a non-SOT reduces the barrel length below 18" while the barrel is attached to the receiver, even for a short period of time, it is my understanding that it would be a violation of Federal law. You might write the ATF and inquire about the legality of cutting an unattached shotgun barrel and permanently attaching a muzzle device while there is no compatible firearm or receiver on the premises or in your possession while the work is performed. It may be legal and it may not. The risk is not worth 10 years Federal time and it is simple enough to write a letter and wait a little while for the reply. I can almost guarantee that it won't take 10 years to get a letter back from the ATF ;) Post a scanning of the ATF's response if you write them. This is the subject of much debate.

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as far as the legality goes here is a thread that address's that.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/78085-new-guy-with-a-question/

 

 

if you go down a ways in the thread there is actually a letter from the atf posted by obiwanbonjovi regarding the legality of doing this. this is the best thing i have seen as far as an answer to the legality of this issue. as for if the gun will function 100 percent afterwards is a whole nother question. i would say that if the gun works 100 percent with winchester bulk pack now that you won't have a problem after cutting the barrel down with most ammo. it is still a crap shoot though. that is the biggest reason to send it to someone that legally does this for a living. if there is a problem after it is cut down they will have the time and capability to trouble shoot it before the brake is welded on. sorry if that doesn't answer your question but every one of these shotguns are different. good luck with whatever you decide.

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A reduction in velocity has nothing to do with reliability. However, a reduction in "dwell time" can effect reliability. It is really hard to say whether or not you will have to do more work to the gas system or not. It all depends on how far beyond the edge of reliability the weapon already is.

 

If a non-SOT reduces the barrel length below 18" while the barrel is attached to the receiver, even for a short period of time, it is my understanding that it would be a violation of Federal law. You might write the ATF and inquire about the legality of cutting an unattached shotgun barrel and permanently attaching a muzzle device while there is no compatible firearm or receiver on the premises or in your possession while the work is performed. It may be legal and it may not. The risk is not worth 10 years Federal time and it is simple enough to write a letter and wait a little while for the reply. I can almost guarantee that it won't take 10 years to get a letter back from the ATF wink.png Post a scanning of the ATF's response if you write them. This is the subject of much debate.

 

Evlblkwpnz, maybe I do not fully underdstand what you are saying, but when I was making adjustments to my S12 the shell velocity iin which I was shooting had everything to do with reliability. My saiga would not cycle anything under 1300 fps prior to the gas system mods. It currently cycles anything 1100+ fps no problem. Maybe we are saying the same things in different words though....... I was under the impression that the lower velocity loads did not allow enough gas to enter the block which subsequently caused FTEs. So i guess my main concern is that the muzzle might release too much gas velocity to properly operate the bolt. Maybe I am way off track though. Hopefully someone who has done a similar swap will post results and help everyone who is interested out.

 

Also, I have done my research on the legality of the proposed process and I have no concerns. Mainly just interested in whether the procedure causes cycling issues? I do agree though that it is not worth 10 years in prison to be unsure!booo.gif

 

Rogers, thanks for the post. It is very reassuring and goes right along with all the research I have already done.

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You are basically creating a ~13" SBS in terms of gas issues since the brake slots are so huge ( I have one ). You might want to check out the SBS technical sticky in the NFA section and read through it a few times.

 

If I had to guess, at this point that is all we are doing, I would say you most likely will have problems. What those will be is anyone's guess. Since there is no going back after the brake is welded/pinned/whatever onto the barrel, I would personally do as much to help the gas situation that I could before doing the brake. On my gun I shortened the gas system by 3.75" and bored out the gas ports a little bigger along with the gas block. My barrel is around 11" at the end of the brake so you might not need as much work but again there is no going back once the cut/weld is done (technically there is but paying a qualified shop to fix it would be expensive).

 

Also, I recommend trying the Monster Brake on you current setup first before doing anything permanent, I was surprised by the amount of backblast from the brake and you might not want that closer to you. That would make it an easy choice if you don't like it.

 

One more thing, a TAC47 Auto Plug is also a good choice for reducing felt recoil since it vent excess gas early.

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I have the Monster Brake for a total 18.5 inches which I guess makes the barrel around 12.5 before the brake. I also have the TAC47 autoplug. I have no problems shooting 7.5 birdshot. I personally like the blast that the Monster puts out. I can blow my wife's hair back when she is beside it and the occasional fireball it can spit out always wows any onlookers.

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A reduction in velocity has nothing to do with reliability. However, a reduction in "dwell time" can effect reliability. It is really hard to say whether or not you will have to do more work to the gas system or not. It all depends on how far beyond the edge of reliability the weapon already is.

 

If a non-SOT reduces the barrel length below 18" while the barrel is attached to the receiver, even for a short period of time, it is my understanding that it would be a violation of Federal law. You might write the ATF and inquire about the legality of cutting an unattached shotgun barrel and permanently attaching a muzzle device while there is no compatible firearm or receiver on the premises or in your possession while the work is performed. It may be legal and it may not. The risk is not worth 10 years Federal time and it is simple enough to write a letter and wait a little while for the reply. I can almost guarantee that it won't take 10 years to get a letter back from the ATF wink.png Post a scanning of the ATF's response if you write them. This is the subject of much debate.

 

Evlblkwpnz, maybe I do not fully underdstand what you are saying, but when I was making adjustments to my S12 the shell velocity iin which I was shooting had everything to do with reliability. My saiga would not cycle anything under 1300 fps prior to the gas system mods. It currently cycles anything 1100+ fps no problem. Maybe we are saying the same things in different words though....... I was under the impression that the lower velocity loads did not allow enough gas to enter the block which subsequently caused FTEs. So i guess my main concern is that the muzzle might release too much gas velocity to properly operate the bolt. Maybe I am way off track though. Hopefully someone who has done a similar swap will post results and help everyone who is interested out.

 

Also, I have done my research on the legality of the proposed process and I have no concerns. Mainly just interested in whether the procedure causes cycling issues? I do agree though that it is not worth 10 years in prison to be unsure!booo.gif

 

Rogers, thanks for the post. It is very reassuring and goes right along with all the research I have already done.

 

Isnt this an impulse thing beside the gas thing? Before drilling an extra hole mine would cycle some rounds without problem when pushing the stock thight on my shoulder but not cycling at all when shooting the same load out of the hip or haveing frequent FTEs when shooting a match and not having it thight on my shoulder.

 

Asuming that the gas pressure is the same shooting the same load from the shoulder or from the hip then there is another factor to value in. In my opinion this is impulse and impule has directly to do with the load and the velocity the load is propelled out of the gun.

 

Or am I wrong???

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Yes, shooting from the shoulder or from the hip makes a difference. Some of the energy from the gas is wasted if the gun doesn't have a solid surface to push against. A gun that is running well should be able to do both. I do notice that my pistol grip only gun has just enough cycling power to get the shell out but throws it forward a little. For my needs this is fine as the recoil is as light as I can get it without having problems.

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I just spoke with Tony over at Tromix about this very thing and he didn't recommend going below 16" unless you're going to rework the gas system. You just can't know if it will cycle low velocity ammo, and the odds seem to be against you.

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I'm not cutting mine but that's a function over form thing. I am committed to this gun for 3 gun and even choked below 19" would put me at a disadvantage a longer gun swings way better. Plus in basic I learned to clear houses with a 20" barrel M16A2. Though it's not optimal it works not near as well as my M4 did in the box. My Saiga with the collapsible stock is actually shorter than that musket. With low powered ammo and the Auto PLUG recoil is low enough that I really don't know about adding a muzzle device right now. It just functions so damn well I'm kinda pulling a if it ain't broke don't fix it thing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

How much does your saiga weigh? I think we need a baseline of comparison. Always count on lugging it around and shooting all day!

 

Never put it on a scale -- I know it doesn't bother me at all. It is a shotty btw, and I can bench at least 60 pounds and pet two cats at once!!!

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I am still at the bar only while petting only 2 kittens. someday I hope to step up to full sized cats.

 

I also am with you on the, "if it's too heavy, grow stronger" but I am a beefy guy as well as the other guys I shoot with but by the end of the day we are exhausted and I notice my accuracy isn't as sharp and I am trying to combat muscle fatigue to better myself and avoid going too far with the weight.

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Gotcha -- was of course only slightly jokin wid cha. But seriously folks, is adding or subtracting a few ounces going to make any difference except for when you have been shooting all day?

And why shoot all day?

When muscles get fatigued, accuracy suffers except for the elite few

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If we didn't b.s. with eachother. Who would:-)

 

It's where the weight is. Now I was thinking about the trim down and the loss of weight from the barrel would even out with the brake. I was shooting the tromix on a stock barrel length so it became heavy in the nose. A few weeks back on the 200 there was some guys on the 200 doing laps then taking position and shooting. The temp was around d 98 that day. We tend to enjoy abusing ourselves

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A reduction in velocity has nothing to do with reliability. However, a reduction in "dwell time" can effect reliability. It is really hard to say whether or not you will have to do more work to the gas system or not. It all depends on how far beyond the edge of reliability the weapon already is.

 

If a non-SOT reduces the barrel length below 18" while the barrel is attached to the receiver, even for a short period of time, it is my understanding that it would be a violation of Federal law. You might write the ATF and inquire about the legality of cutting an unattached shotgun barrel and permanently attaching a muzzle device while there is no compatible firearm or receiver on the premises or in your possession while the work is performed. It may be legal and it may not. The risk is not worth 10 years Federal time and it is simple enough to write a letter and wait a little while for the reply. I can almost guarantee that it won't take 10 years to get a letter back from the ATF wink.png Post a scanning of the ATF's response if you write them. This is the subject of much debate.

 

Evlblkwpnz, maybe I do not fully underdstand what you are saying, but when I was making adjustments to my S12 the shell velocity iin which I was shooting had everything to do with reliability. My saiga would not cycle anything under 1300 fps prior to the gas system mods. It currently cycles anything 1100+ fps no problem. Maybe we are saying the same things in different words though....... I was under the impression that the lower velocity loads did not allow enough gas to enter the block which subsequently caused FTEs. So i guess my main concern is that the muzzle might release too much gas velocity to properly operate the bolt. Maybe I am way off track though. Hopefully someone who has done a similar swap will post results and help everyone who is interested out.

 

Also, I have done my research on the legality of the proposed process and I have no concerns. Mainly just interested in whether the procedure causes cycling issues? I do agree though that it is not worth 10 years in prison to be unsure!booo.gif

 

Rogers, thanks for the post. It is very reassuring and goes right along with all the research I have already done.

I am referring to the loss in velocity, however minor, when a shotgun round is fired from a sub-18" barrel. Dwell time has more to do with reliability than the actual velocity that the round fired reaches within a certain barrel length. Yes, we are talking about different things. I am talking about the reduction in the velocity of each round due to barrel length and you are talking about the actual round. Sorry, hope I didn't confuse anyone.

 

If I can make an 8" SBS crank out Winchester Universal in MD-20 drums, first try, then you can likely get that thing running at 13". Never give up....

 

It's Beastly, My friend has the tromix and it is HEAVY compared to the GK-01 which I have on mine.

 

Saiga is heavy enough without needing to add more to it. I plan on shortening my barrel and pinning the gk-01 like one of my friends did. (stole his pic)

177757_413666552017336_1177380711_o.jpg

I'm liking that rig with the G-01, but those aluminum stocks and vert CHs hurt my eyes.

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  • 3 weeks later...

"I would like to cut the barrel to 13" and add the Tromix 5.8" brake to keep me within the legal limit of 18" for a non sbs".

 

Better check with ATF NFA branch on that one.

 

I thought that was legal. I've seen them cut with the monster brake to measure that the 18.2 inches.

 

It's Beastly, My friend has the tromix and it is HEAVY compared to the GK-01 which I have on mine.

 

Saiga is heavy enough without needing to add more to it. I plan on shortening my barrel and pinning the gk-01 like one of my friends did. (stole his pic)

177757_413666552017336_1177380711_o.jpg

 

 

Just cuz you can lift weight doesnt mean should. Who wouldnt want a lighter gun? I dont think its a matter of upper body strength but one of comfort. That brake is heavy.

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"I would like to cut the barrel to 13" and add the Tromix 5.8" brake to keep me within the legal limit of 18" for a non sbs".

 

Better check with ATF NFA branch on that one.

 

I thought that was legal. I've seen them cut with the monster brake to measure that the 18.2 inches.

 

It's legal if done by a shop authorized to do the work. The argument is that if a normal person does it they have an illegal weapon during the time between the cut and when the brake is attached.

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  • 1 month later...

 

 

Just cuz you can lift weight doesnt mean should. Who wouldnt want a lighter gun? I dont think its a matter of upper body strength but one of comfort. That brake is heavy.

Heavy or not, they claim it is the best for recoil reduction.

Is there something out there that tested same or better?

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A reduction in velocity has nothing to do with reliability. However, a reduction in "dwell time" can effect reliability. It is really hard to say whether or not you will have to do more work to the gas system or not. It all depends on how far beyond the edge of reliability the weapon already is.

 

If a non-SOT reduces the barrel length below 18" while the barrel is attached to the receiver, even for a short period of time, it is my understanding that it would be a violation of Federal law. You might write the ATF and inquire about the legality of cutting an unattached shotgun barrel and permanently attaching a muzzle device while there is no compatible firearm or receiver on the premises or in your possession while the work is performed. It may be legal and it may not. The risk is not worth 10 years Federal time and it is simple enough to write a letter and wait a little while for the reply. I can almost guarantee that it won't take 10 years to get a letter back from the ATF wink.png Post a scanning of the ATF's response if you write them. This is the subject of much debate.

 

Evlblkwpnz, maybe I do not fully underdstand what you are saying, but when I was making adjustments to my S12 the shell velocity iin which I was shooting had everything to do with reliability. My saiga would not cycle anything under 1300 fps prior to the gas system mods. It currently cycles anything 1100+ fps no problem. Maybe we are saying the same things in different words though....... I was under the impression that the lower velocity loads did not allow enough gas to enter the block which subsequently caused FTEs. So i guess my main concern is that the muzzle might release too much gas velocity to properly operate the bolt. Maybe I am way off track though. Hopefully someone who has done a similar swap will post results and help everyone who is interested out.

 

Also, I have done my research on the legality of the proposed process and I have no concerns. Mainly just interested in whether the procedure causes cycling issues? I do agree though that it is not worth 10 years in prison to be unsure!booo.gif

 

Rogers, thanks for the post. It is very reassuring and goes right along with all the research I have already done.

 

I think he was clarifying. Higher Velocity of the shot tends to coincide with longer Dwell time. However you can take two shells with the same velocity that may not produce the same dwell time. i.e. winchester bulk vs federal bulk. Slower burning powders tend to achieve longer dwell times at the same ultimate velocity.

 

Answering your question more directly, you may have to do some gas & or friction work if you chop your barrel any length. That may be just a minor increase in port size. If you chop your barrel to shorter than 12" you pretty much need to have the gas block moved closer to the receiver.

 

The most direct answer is that if you want the full monster permed at 18.25" you should have a class 2 SOT smith do the job and call it done.

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