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Finally ready to purchase a S12


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(I hope this is posted in the right section, I wouldnt want my first post in this forum to upset the Saiga Gurus!)

 

I am finally in a position to purchase a Saiga 12 after wanting one for about 2 or 3 years. I will admit, this is the first time I will have purchased a brand new weapon. My collection currently consist of a beautiful old .357 Magnum, and a pump action that is worn out and almost needs to be thrown away, both of which I received from Grand Pa.

 

Needless to say, Im BEYOND excited to buy the Saiga. I plan to convert it, telescoping recoil reducing stock, and an upgraded sight. I have read about 922 and understand it (Well, understand enough). I have also read about replacing the gas plug, but I will need to do more research on which is the right one.

 

I also am very excited to use the MD 20 round drums. That video where they ran the drum over 7 times or so? I was SOLD.

 

My understanding is that I MAY need to modify the receiver to accept the drum, and I know I will have to modify the gun to accept the conversion. From the sounds of people ending up with their "Vodka Specials" I'll want to make sure its well broken in before converting it. Modification of the Drum, NEVER the receiver.

 

I do have some questions:

-How many rounds do you have to have run through a new Saiga 12 before you consider it broken in enough to convert it?

-Which gas plug do you all consider to be the best choice? This part can be changed without modifying the receiver? <-- That was a stupid question. MD V-plug or the auto plug are the only good choices, and no modification necessary.

-Every gun jams once in a very rare while, how many rounds between jams is acceptable in a new gun? If it fails to fire the 150th round would it be fair to call the gun sub-par?

-What is an inexpensive ammo brand that will be a good choice for the break-in period?

-Any other input from the masters?

 

Im also a bit concerned about buying online, or buying used. The gun for sale in OR (Found in the classified section) looks like a fair deal, but I am not 100% sure I would be able to bring it back to par.

 

Thank all so much for reading!

 

EDIT: I edited a few places where I had asked REALLY dumb questions. All edits in RED. I need to not post when I am so tired. =/

 

Updated plan is located Here.

Edited by TheJoe90
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Welcome to the forum! First, you do NOT need to modify the receiver to accept a MD20 drum... or any other drum for that matter.

 

Second, I ran 200-300 rounds through my Saiga before I converted it.

 

Third, I am running a Gunfixer gas plug. It helps with reliability, but honestly I didn't have any issues with the one the gun came with, I just wanted to make sure I can get to a point where I feel comfortable trusting my life with the gun. Also, no modifications are necessary to install a new plug. Simply unscrew the old one, and put in the new one! Also for reference, the #1 setting on the stock plug is for heavy loads like buckshot and slugs and the #2 setting is for birdshot and target loads.

 

Fourth, this is subjective, but I would definitely call it sub-par if it's jamming every 150 rounds. I wouldn't call it a sub-par gun though. Some Saigas require 'tuning'. I have learned that sometimes the holes in the barrel that the gas travels through, the ports, to cause the action of the gun require either enlarging, or to be actually drilled through. Some of the older Saigas had problems with the ports not being completely drilled through. Also, I couldn't tell you an exact number of how many rounds before it jams is acceptable or not. Think about it like this, what is the lowest acceptable number of rounds going through the gun before it jams, if your life was depending on it?

 

Fifth, I would recommend shooting a good amount of heavy stuff like slugs during the break in period. But for the cheaper ammo, I have had great results shooting Federal target loads. My Saiga never really shot Winchester target loads well, but runs flawlessly on the Federal stuff. It will shoot any Winchester high brass stuff though without any hickups.

 

Sixth, don't be surprised when everyone at the range asks you what your S12 is and when everyone stares with envy!

Edited by socom688
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Breaking in is pointless: Do this instead. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/65772-reliability-mods-vs-break-in-vs-quick-fixes/page__st__60&do=findComment&comment=707667

 

If your MD2odoesn't fit perfectly out of the box, you file a few swipes on the drum, not your gun. He has a video and the drums also come with good instructions.

 

 

as for gas plugs, the factory plug works fine, aftermarket ones add convenience and more adjustment or automatic adjustment. Autoplug is my choice, but the gunfixer plug and knock offs are fine too. If you cut a small notch in your forearm by the detente, you can hold down the detente with one finger, and turn it with your other hand, making the factory plug toolless.

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Welcome to the forum! First, you do NOT need to modify the receiver to accept a MD20 drum... or any other drum for that matter.

 

Second, I ran 200-300 rounds through my Saiga before I converted it.

 

Third, I am running a Gunfixer gas plug. It helps with reliability, but honestly I didn't have any issues with the one the gun came with, I just wanted to make sure I can get to a point where I feel comfortable trusting my life with the gun. Also, no modifications are necessary to install a new plug. Simply unscrew the old one, and put in the new one! Also for reference, the #1 setting on the stock plug is for heavy loads like buckshot and slugs and the #2 setting is for birdshot and target loads.

 

Fourth, this is subjective, but I would definitely call it sub-par if it's jamming every 150 rounds. I wouldn't call it a sub-par gun though. Some Saigas require 'tuning'. I have learned that sometimes the holes in the barrel that the gas travels through, the ports, to cause the action of the gun require either enlarging, or to be actually drilled through. Some of the older Saigas had problems with the ports not being completely drilled through. Also, I couldn't tell you an exact number of how many rounds before it jams is acceptable or not. Think about it like this, what is the lowest acceptable number of rounds going through the gun before it jams, if your life was depending on it?

 

Fifth, I would recommend shooting a good amount of heavy stuff like slugs during the break in period. But for the cheaper ammo, I have had great results shooting Federal target loads. My Saiga never really shot Winchester target loads well, but runs flawlessly on the Federal stuff. It will shoot any Winchester high brass stuff though without any hickups.

 

Sixth, don't be surprised when everyone at the range asks you what your S12 is and when everyone stares with envy!

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to leave a helpful reply! I am so excited to get it and start shooting and modifying this beautiful piece of equipment. I am quickly learning, and I recognize how much more there is to be learned. Just waiting till after the 1st to make the purchase.

 

The question about the gas plug might have seemed a bit silly, but I have never had the pleasure of holding one of these beauty's in my hands yet. I half expect that when my gun arrives it will glow with pure awesomeness!

 

Breaking in is pointless: Do this instead. http://forum.saiga-1..._60#entry707667

 

If your MD2odoesn't fit perfectly out of the box, you file a few swipes on the drum, not your gun. He has a video and the drums also come with good instructions.

 

 

as for gas plugs, the factory plug works fine, aftermarket ones add convenience and more adjustment or automatic adjustment. Autoplug is my choice, but the gunfixer plug and knock offs are fine too. If you cut a small notch in your forearm by the detente, you can hold down the detente with one finger, and turn it with your other hand, making the factory plug toolless.

 

This is one of the best posts I could have imagined. You linked me to a thread I have now read twice over, and I have learned SO much. Lots of great info in that thread.

 

I hope that I receive a gun that eats birdshot like candy then has slugs for dinner, I just want to make sure I am taking the correct steps. :)

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Ok, here's your silver platter..... read the stickies. You are new here and your questions aren't unique. All of then have been discussed, in length, and the information is in the stickies. All you have to do is read it. After that, we'd all be gracious enough to help with specifics. Also try the search function.

 

Specifics are easy to answer, but asking something like "Which gas plug do you all consider to be the best choice? This part can be changed without modifying the receiver?" asks for broad opinion for one question and common sense for the second. Please start by reading.

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(I hope this is posted in the right section, I wouldnt want my first post in this forum to upset the Saiga Gurus!)

 

I am finally in a position to purchase a Saiga 12 after wanting one for about 2 or 3 years. I will admit, this is the first time I will have purchased a brand new weapon. My collection currently consist of a beautiful old .357 Magnum, and a pump action that is worn out and almost needs to be thrown away, both of which I received from Grand Pa.

 

Needless to say, Im BEYOND excited to buy the Saiga. I plan to convert it, telescoping recoil reducing stock, and an upgraded sight. I have read about 922 and understand it (Well, understand enough). I have also read about replacing the gas plug, but I will need to do more research on which is the right one.

 

I also am very excited to use the MD 20 round drums. That video where they ran the drum over 7 times or so? I was SOLD.

 

My understanding is that I MAY need to modify the receiver to accept the drum, and I know I will have to modify the gun to accept the conversion. From the sounds of people ending up with their "Vodka Specials" I'll want to make sure its well broken in before converting it.

Fit the drum, not the receiver

 

I do have some questions:

-How many rounds do you have to have run through a new Saiga 12 before you consider it broken in enough to convert it?

With proper refining of the weapon, mine are reliable from the first shot on with Winchester Universal or Federal Multi-purpose

-Which gas plug do you all consider to be the best choice? This part can be changed without modifying the receiver?

The factory regulator is fine until you have achieved the reliability that you seek. After that, I recommend the Autoplug

-Every gun jams once in a very rare while, how many rounds between jams is acceptable in a new gun? If it fails to fire the 150th round would it be fair to call the gun sub-par?

With an extended barrel hood (2011 + up models) extreme reliability can be achieved. Go on youtube and search "Saiga 12 200"

-What is an inexpensive ammo brand that will be a good choice for the break-in period?

Shoot whatever it will run on and do it because you want to shoot it. Hand cycling the weapon does about the same thing that shooting it will.... next to absolutely nothing. Firing the weapon does is not a substitute for a competent Saiga'smith refining the weapon

-Any other input from the masters?

Read the 'sticky' threads at the top of this forum to get an idea of the basics. DO NOT do the "D"- mod. It can be a step backwards and is a dumbass move. Do not use anything other than unmodified factory springs. Never overlook the fact that these are gas-operated weapons. The CSS puck is a great product and may be a good starting point if it isn't quite reliable with low power loads. 2011 models and up have an extended barrel hood and that is what I recommend you buy. These weapons can be very frustrating at first, but once they run well they are extremely fun and rewarding.

WELCOME ABOARD!

 

Im also a bit concerned about buying online, or buying used. The gun for sale in OR (Found in the classified section) looks like a fair deal, but I am not 100% sure I would be able to bring it back to par.

Do not buy a used S12. There is no telling what "hack'smithing" has been done to it. I started with 2 used ones and it was a mistake. Get a 2011 or 2012 model.

 

Thank all so much for reading!

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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Okay, I love this. There are new members everyday. Although I have been building and repairing and modifying guns for the better part of 15 years, I myself am a semi new member here. You my friend are in great company. I actually thought I was getting a 12ga AK when I bought mine. NOT NECESSARILY SO MY GOOD FELLOW. Don't get me wrong it has similarities. I know we all want a great perfect out of the box gun and I wanted that to but that ain't always how it works. Now I believe the more drunk the assembler is the better. I don't dare consider anyone except a few very prominent members here to be masters of this platform they are the few that have seen it all. I'm sure they would be modest and say they haven't but ALL of the members are really here for you. This really is an addictive hobby. I know it sounds weird but the best thing to ever happen to me was buying a TGI Knoxville 4 port gun that was so Vodka specialed up I had to personally modify or swap out 90% of it (NOT AN EXAGGERATION). I now feel like there is no problem I can't diagnose or repair as long as I have or can get my hands on the right tools. So if it"s F@$#*% up make lemonade. Nothing is so complex about this gun that you can't do it yourself NOTHING! But don't do it until you have read the stickies and if it ain't there ASK! I think we're eventually going to have a Saiga rehab from this epidemic. I ain't goin. My motto is have fun. When it stops being fun you need to quit. Oh yeah everybody is dead on about getting it to run in stock configuration. I didn't and now I have parts I spent money on and no longer need. My baseline gotta cycle or I wasn't gonna quit until it did was the infamous Winchester Universal Walmart Bulk. It took ALOT of gas system modification for it to run it flawlessly but even though I live in northwest Florida now I am from southeastern La. And went through Katrina so if it won't cycle anything and everything it don't belong in my gun safe (even my AR's). We couldn't even find Wolf. 223 or any other 12ga ammo except Winchester Universal anywhere. Remember the journey should be as much fun as the finish line.

Edited by 45Bretired
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That's right, it is in one sense an improvement over old AK design. It has a short stroke piston, that vents debris outside the receiver and can handle a much broader range of pressures than a conventional AK gas system.

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Why is the "D" mod a "step backwards and a dumbass move"? I've read this twice now from ebw but haven't seen any explanation as to why. Only thing i can come up with is increasing gas chamber volume....

 

I think the consensus is that it can almost certainly overgas your system, and at the very least allows for stupid amounts of fouling to get into your gas system, making it necessary to clean more often.

 

I do have some questions:

-How many rounds do you have to have run through a new Saiga 12 before you consider it broken in enough to convert it?

-Which gas plug do you all consider to be the best choice? This part can be changed without modifying the receiver?

-Every gun jams once in a very rare while, how many rounds between jams is acceptable in a new gun? If it fails to fire the 150th round would it be fair to call the gun sub-par?

-What is an inexpensive ammo brand that will be a good choice for the break-in period?

-Any other input from the masters?

 

Im also a bit concerned about buying online, or buying used. The gun for sale in OR (Found in the classified section) looks like a fair deal, but I am not 100% sure I would be able to bring it back to par.

 

Thank all so much for reading!

 

There is debate rather or not a "break in" period is necessary. Ideally, it wouldn't be, but these guns are manufactured with relatively loose tolerances and may need to wear into each other. Rather that means you put a bunch of rounds down the gun or you sit down and manually cycle it by hand, the parts will wear into each other. The advantage to putting rounds down it will let you know where your gun stands on cycling issues.

 

I run the Tac-47 autoplug in mine, as do several people in this thread. It's about twice as expensive as other gas regulators, but it is set-it-and-forget-it technology that lets you shoot whatever you want without adjustment.

 

Jamming will happen. It can happen for lots of reasons - not all of them related to your gun. I will generally get between 1-5 FTE's out of a box of Federal Bulk. I would say a 1% fail rate for a bulk pack of ammo isn't too bad, the other FTE's may be caused by magazine/feed issues (I notice my MD20 will FTE significantly more, but it is a range toy so it isn't something that I'm too worried about).

 

Federal Bulk will be your cheapest shooting (#7 1/2 or #8), but you may have trouble cycling this out of the box. A lot of people recommend running heavy loads to "break it in." I personally just manually cycled the bolt about 400 times and took it to the range. I have since put about 1000 rounds of Federal Bulk down it and about 25 rounds of 00 buck (I plink and trap shoot for fun with my S-12, so cheaper = more ammo).

 

Read the stickies and use Google to search the forum, as virtually any question that has "Saiga 12" in the keywords comes back here. If you feel your problem is specific, then make a topic on it. I have seen 5 or 6 "newbie" threads in the past 3 days or so, and while I'm glad people are excited about their new guns (as they should be), a lot of threads that don't provide information or provide the same information to multiple people don't add to a knowledge base like what a forum should be. That being said, welcome to the forum and your new addiction. The second you put 20 rounds down range as fast as you can pull the trigger, you won't regret your purchase and the time you took to tune it.

 

 

Edit:

 

Also, don't pay more than $600 for a stock S-12. Buying online is fine as long as you have a reliable FFL to ship to. If you can't find one for $600 or less locally, Clarke Arms (a business member here) is selling them for $599 right now.

Edited by FOURBUX
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Why is the "D" mod a "step backwards and a dumbass move"? I've read this twice now from ebw but haven't seen any explanation as to why. Only thing i can come up with is increasing gas chamber volume....

 

I think the consensus is that it can almost certainly overgas your system, and at the very least allows for stupid amounts of fouling to get into your gas system, making it necessary to clean more often.

 

How does that even make any sense?

 

post-20217-0-83962700-1343258746.jpg

Edited by Mullet Man
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Why is the "D" mod a "step backwards and a dumbass move"? I've read this twice now from ebw but haven't seen any explanation as to why. Only thing i can come up with is increasing gas chamber volume....

 

I think the consensus is that it can almost certainly overgas your system, and at the very least allows for stupid amounts of fouling to get into your gas system, making it necessary to clean more often.

 

How does that even make any sense?

 

 

Larger single port, more gas, larger hole for larger bits/more fouling to travel through. Unless I'm misunderstanding what the "D" mod is, but I understood it to be basically cutting a large "D" shaped gas port instead of smaller multiple ports.

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Reference....

http://forum.saiga-1...-ports/page__hl

 

 

The "D" modification is done to the gas block itself. Some S12's gas ports are covered (some partially, some completely) by the gas block. When you remove the gas block, you can see a carbon ring around the ports, this shows how much the gas block obstructs the gas ports. Some guys cut/drill/file the gas block 'window' into a "D" shape, to unobstruct those gas ports.

It has nothing to do with a single gas port, it's just a matter of allowing the existing gas ports to flow at full volume.

That's why my post #14 is what it is.

 

I'm curious why it's a, "dumbass move"?

Edited by Mullet Man
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Reference....

http://forum.saiga-1...-ports/page__hl

 

 

The "D" modification is done to the gas block itself. Some S12's gas ports are covered (some partially, some completely) by the gas block. When you remove the gas block, you can see a carbon ring around the ports, this shows how much the gas block obstructs the gas ports. Some guys cut/drill/file the gas block 'window' into a "D" shape, to unobstruct those gas ports.

It has nothing to do with a single gas port, it's just a matter of allowing the existing gas ports to flow at full volume.

That's why my post #14 is what it is.

 

I'm curious why it's a, "dumbass move"?

 

I see. I remember reading that thread a loooong time ago, guess my memory is a little off. 021.gif Apologies, sir. I think it seems like a fine solution if the gas block is obstructing your ports. His method of getting the gas block off is also solid, assuming reassembly doesn't leave the GB canted.

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I seem to remember that too much material can be removed causing the gas plug to not be able to properly regulate gas. I could be wrong, but I believe that's it. Not cheap to fix...

 

How does that work? If the gas block is left to block the ports, then it's not working right. If its opened up to let the flow through, then it's not working right. At what point is the median?

The plug doesnt touch the barrel, so there is always a gap for the gases to get through (thickness of the gas block). I dont see how opening it can cause the plug to not function correctly? It's being opened towards the plug (towards the muzzle) which is still covered by the plug, not away from it where the plug can't cover the window anymore.

I very well could be missing something in plain sight here, it just doesnt make sense to me, which is why i'm asking....

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I was referring to something like the post made by Evl in the following thread (post #13):

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/72869-cycling-problem/

 

 

Like I said, some guns need it, but many do not. I suggest extreme caution when cutting or drilling. Some things can't be taken back. Then again, others can be.

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I was referring to something like the post made by Evl in the following thread (post #13):

 

http://forum.saiga-1...ycling-problem/

 

 

Like I said, some guns need it, but many do not. I suggest extreme caution when cutting or drilling. Some things can't be taken back. Then again, others can be.

You nailed it.

 

That was the one and only time that I have ever explained why the D-mod shouldn't be done, partially, at least. The bevel that already exists should be increased, but not so much that the interior of the gas block is disturbed.

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Well, after a LOT of reading and searching, and reading, I have decided..... I need a second job. :P

 

My plan for the pre-conversion period is simple. I will start by, as others have suggested, pissing off my renters by sitting in the living room and raking the slide 400+ times. Im also going to inspect the gas ports, though admittedly I wont really know what Im looking for.

 

I'll go to the range, see how it cycles on mid range birdshot, with the stock mag and no changes made to the gun. I'll also fire some high brass and 3 inch shells. Why? Because I have them in the safe.

 

I figure, from everything I have read, that 100 rounds will be enough for me to see what Im working with.

 

I spoke to Clarke Arms, inquiring on the warrenty. I was looking for a, "If it behaves as X, its not a good gun and we will make it right, if it behaves as Z then it works fine" as far as their warranty goes. He couldn't be quite that specific, but he did say, "We take care of our customers, and it should cycle mid grade bird shot out of the box". Super nice guy. I look forward to giving him money on the 1st.

 

I also asked why they didnt have any of the MD20 drums on their site, and he said he would look into trying to get one. The only place I have found them instock was Saiga12.com and they want $140! I understood the going rate to only be $100 or so.

 

I also have started putting together my list of things I will purchase once its broken in. I will link to the items from CSS, but just post the names of the items not sold by sites associated with the forum.

 

Conversion kit: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-1241/saiga-12-ATI-Strike/Detail Not sure which trigger gaurde to choose, but I think the CSS looks better. :)

 

CSS offers inexpensive pistol grip upgrades. I cant decide which I like best between the "Scorpion" or the "Hogue". Scorpion seems to be CSS's preference for comfort, but the Hogue seems to be more well known, and has some storage inside. Decisions decisions.

 

Since I have expectations of my gun to be able to fire 3 inch shells (I know the drum doesnt accept them) as well as cheapo bird shot, I will order the MD Vplug at the same time.

 

I know I want rails, but I dont want them to be completely overdone. I am looking at:

SAIGA 12 SGM QUAD-RAIL

or

SAIGA 12, 20 SHOTGUN TACTICAL HANDGUARD

SKU: PHOENIX-FOREARM

 

I liked the "Infuse" also, but I hear it had an issue with melting.

 

Later on down the road I would love to add a Bushnell Trophy TRS-25 1xRed Dot Sight Riflescope and/or a LaserMax Colt CGL Foregrip Laser but that will have to wait till I have some more funds to spend. :)

 

Suggestions are of course welcomed, that's why I posted here. Also allows me to keep my thoughts all straight.

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