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Tig Weld inner Front Trunnion lock tabs to fix AR feed of .223


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#1 Eureka

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:35 PM

Well I have sat, thought and found my focus drawing back to the reality of my initial desire.

Saiga .223 with AR mag adapter

Milled to have insert fitting flush to bottom of receiver, as required.

What I wanted, to be able to pick up any AR mag, not one made for the Saiga as a post fix... Tapco and PMag types... have been modified somewhat, to allow them to work (the Tapco being slightly thicker in all exterior dimensions) in the AR Adapter system without effecting the STD AR fit.

I set out to use a bullet guide.... nice, but I am not about to find any converted face cut mags in the wild fro an AR perspective, so the pick up a mag idea... fails.

Now... from what I can see... and I have got 6 random mags that do the exact same thing... nose into the breech block face within a projectile points variation, so, I glued a slice of plastic ( no I am not going to keep it on there) to the inner face of the Trunnion lock tabs...... the inner means facing into the mag / receiver centerline opposed to each other


Bingo, each damn mag fed almost as good as the PMag... now That was a winner....

I was not using any BG as it would require me to cut n gut the mags, which makes it pointless in the field, or in barter

Has anyone Tig welded the Trunnion... or Mig welded it... being cast, I can pretty much take it that the TIG would be the best choice...

Any engineers / coded welders out here got a few suggestions or the best practice to use in this instance....?

The thickness of the plastic was 0.76"



TY

EL

#2 mancat

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 07:53 PM

I mean no offense, but it's sort of hard to understand what you've typed. It's not exactly clear if your rifle has an AR magazine adapter or not, since you are also talking about installing a bullet guide within the same post.

It sounds like the problem is actually with your magazines, perhaps if they are old/worn out and are experiencing follower tilt. Also, potentially the geometry of where they are seated and feeding into the chamber is incorect, due to improper installation of the AR mag adapter, or modification to the magazine release latch, ETC.

Problems like this are usually due to magazine geometry and not the trunnion. There are plenty of people here running AR mag adapters with zero problem. The trunnion design is pretty much the same between all of these rifles.

It is extremely helpful to anyone trying to understand your issue, to have detailed photographs of the problem area, from multiple angles if possible.

Edited by mancat, 03 August 2012 - 07:53 PM.


#3 Eureka

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:20 PM

I mean no offense, but it's sort of hard to understand what you've typed. It's not exactly clear if your rifle has an AR magazine adapter or not, since you are also talking about installing a bullet guide within the same post.

It sounds like the problem is actually with your magazines, perhaps if they are old/worn out and are experiencing follower tilt. Also, potentially the geometry of where they are seated and feeding into the chamber is incorect, due to improper installation of the AR mag adapter, or modification to the magazine release latch, ETC.

Problems like this are usually due to magazine geometry and not the trunnion. There are plenty of people here running AR mag adapters with zero problem. The trunnion design is pretty much the same between all of these rifles.

It is extremely helpful to anyone trying to understand your issue, to have detailed photographs of the problem area, from multiple angles if possible.


I am sorry to not have been clear....

I have the Adapter installed, milling done... and was going to put i the BG but that would mean cutting the front of the AR mags to suit.....

I shall not do that as that means that they are changed...

The mags i have , unaltered, feed to the point each side and below the throat of the chamber...

Pics, yes, I can do that....

All mags are new

I have worked out the solution so i do not have to cut the AR mags... just need to know if TIG shall work.... the locking "nubs" are those that allow the bolt to lock , but they also actually assit in guiding the cart case into the direction of the chmber throat.... I shall do pics if needed....

EL

#4 TAKD

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:44 PM

@Eureka I too am finding it hard to follow. I understand the shim and TIG part but I know of plenty of Saigas with a BG and they do not mod mags to use. So I am kind of at a loss as what you're really facing or trying to accomplish. If a BG fixes it then the logical solution is to make a modified BG if that's all it needs. The BG does not have to sit way out into the magwell to work.

I'm going to revisit your photos from the other post.... Unless you have a very "one off" rifle I can't for the life of me understand why you're having so much trouble. But pics would really help. Thanks

N

Update: I looked at your other photos. All you need is a rounded BG just shy of the throat and you'd be golden. To test that... superglue a shim in that area and whatch it ride up and chamber.

#5 Eureka

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:54 PM

@Eureka I too am finding it hard to follow. I understand the shim and TIG part but I know of plenty of Saigas with a BG and they do not mod mags to use. So I am kind of at a loss as what you're really facing. If a BG fixes it then the logical solution is to make a modified BG if that's all it needs. The BG does not have to sit way out into the magwell to work. I'm going to revisit your photos from the other post.... Unless you have a very "one off" rifle I can't for the life of me understand why you're having so much trouble. But pics would really help. Thanks

N


Starting to think this is a one of, as the BG when modded (I trimmed it to fit various ways, it is just to little (height wise) to late.... the Adapter locks in just fine, and flush.... even made it fit tighter at the rear catch..... it just does not aloow the mags to come up far enough for them to get close to being redirected into the chamber, which is when I saw that they were running on the face of the bolt locking faces, so.. I put in the plastic (to test) and they allow the round to be pushed up and into the chamber...

I have two options, build up a BG that actually starts at the front edge of the mag... cutting out that small section of the adapter... or, I tig about .03" on each fac as described..

This is not a rant btw, on either the products I have purchased nor help provided. This is my trying to grab a handful of AR mags and have them feed as I want, the pmag works, but all others, not so much or stovepiped....

It appears that the mag is not directing the round into the chamber before the round stovepipes.... in slow motion, fast feed (care taken) and finger movement....

TY all

EL

#6 canoecanoe

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 11:09 AM

No offense intended towards anyone, but this is why I thnk it is not the best idea to modify ones rifle to accept a mag not intended for use in that rifle (Ar mags in an AK).

I know a lot of folks swear by this, but some are obviously swearing at it.

Here is a riifle that has been milled and now the owner wants to tig material back as well as having additional issues. My advice would be think long and hard before trying the AK to AR mag switch.

In any event, I sincerely hope that Eureka finds a successful solution.

Just my two cents worth
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#7 TAKD

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:03 PM

@canoecanoe. No offense taken. I think you may have a misunderstanding though.... It's not that it does not work, it is more that it does not work with all "AR" mags. Which I went into detail in another post about no two brands are the same. As Eureka stated PMags do work.... and that is the mag brand we recommend to use. He is exploring other ways to fix the other various mag out there to work in his rifle. Of which I can appreciate his methodical methods of analyzing the issue. The TIG work is not to reverse the milling... but to add to the factory and make it more reliable with those mags that don't work. I think it's genius and shows a lot of dedication to a craft and hobby. To push the envelope further... That's my take on it anyway.

@Eureka. I think you are on the right course... but I would build up the BG first. Would be a straight forward fix.

#8 saigway

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 03:26 PM

i have a good amount of experiance with welding. my advice is to make sure and ask someone when you buy the rods, or wire if it matches the type of steel you will be welding to. it'd be a good idea as a begainer to go ahead and get the smallest size there is and turn the current/heat down to the lowest possible. make sure and use a autodarkening hood as it will be easyer to see what your doing. GO SLOW, and make sure you practice on some scrap metal for atleast 20-30 minutes so that you have a feel for what your doing with the setup of type of welding machine and the settings on it.

other than that;..sorry i couldnt be much help. have looked into this thought about doing it myself but have no experiance in this calibur of saiga or the msa adapter i belive its called.

#9 G O B

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 09:34 PM

Following your thoughts is as hard as Chinese arithmetic! But it sounds like you heed the BG, but it needs to be modified as it is too big?? If so the do the BG and dremmel to suit. It is a lot cheaper to FUBAR a cheap and replaceable BG then to FUBAR the trunnion.

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#10 Eureka

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:33 AM

@canoecanoe. No offense taken. I think you may have a misunderstanding though.... It's not that it does not work, it is more that it does not work with all "AR" mags. Which I went into detail in another post about no two brands are the same. As Eureka stated PMags do work.... and that is the mag brand we recommend to use. He is exploring other ways to fix the other various mag out there to work in his rifle. Of which I can appreciate his methodical methods of analyzing the issue. The TIG work is not to reverse the milling... but to add to the factory and make it more reliable with those mags that don't work. I think it's genius and shows a lot of dedication to a craft and hobby. To push the envelope further... That's my take on it anyway.

@Eureka. I think you are on the right course... but I would build up the BG first. Would be a straight forward fix.


TY Nathan, and also skullface.

I made my mind up to build a CAD drawing of sorts to start to show and talk about the mod/s rather than have to keep confusing people with my Noob descriptions of parts of the Trunnion that have names but they seem to have been left off any documents I can find, so.... I shall name them and number them and then when those who are more enlightened than myself correct the errors I can change to suit.

The building up of the inner facing Bolt locking tabs... well that has been a thought for a while of mine as no-one seemed to have said anything about doing it, and the little bits of plastic i glued on seemed to do the trick, I can name that as well... lol

All said and done, I shall build up a plastic BG to get the ramping effect out of the front of the mag, the adapter "lip" at that position I shall trim back to flush with the round Trunnion valley as it shall allow the slope of the guide to be that much closer to the face lip of the mag.

I do not believe the integrity of the Adapter shall be altered by doing this, but, if it is then i shall just buy another one and start again..... I am convinced by measuring the forward motion of the cartridge that the delay in contacting any form of centering slope is the critical fail in being able to use "any GI style" magazine in the adapter. Please note the original Siaga mag has two wonderful side mounted feed "lips" that guide the round into the throat....and the front of the mag is the BG, how about that..lol

Now, if I provision the curve in the BG and it is sufficient to clear the bolt lug as it moves forward stripping the round from the mag, and directs it to the center of the throat, then we have a winner.

It may be as a final solution, I use a Dinzag adapter and shim it up till it touches the bottom of the bolt, then take off enough to provision clearance, plus a tad (scientific name) for heat considerations.

My mental mock up feels that we need two actions in one to take place.... firstly the initial lifting of the round as it travels forward, the second is a redirection into the center of the throat.

Should this work on the 223 I have, then I shall measure the whole thing and then post it for all to review and use should they seek the same or similar solutions.

groans, now I am thinking of the 308... have we an adapter for that one yet? smiles.

EL

Should I still require the tig "buildup" on each of the two faces of the locking lugs then we have a dual result

#11 mancat

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 11:22 AM

Please just post pictures. It sounds like your AR adapter is incorrectly installed.

#12 Eureka

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 02:08 PM

Please just post pictures. It sounds like your AR adapter is incorrectly installed.


http://forum.saiga-1...ar/page__st__60

Mancat,

These are the pcs fomr the install.

Nathan had gone over them and suggested seating it deeper into the real locking tab, which has been done.

As previously stated, the PMag, with the guide feed and directional lips in it, feeds okay, but I am looking at "pick-up " mags... the new GI steel AR mags etc.... and making them work.

As for the BG, I am looking at a variation, which i have been documenting, as well as the adjustment to the directional feed lips "locking tabs" that contact the round and guide it towards the center of the throat opening.....

As I cannot seat the adapter any deeper into the magwell, it is flushed out now on the receiver, we come to one of several conclusions....

1) My Build was a One of by the manufacturer, which could happen..... even if everything fits as it should, the diameter of the round trunnion area is larger than normal, so a normal BG does not do the juob intended and also means the adapter would not allow a seating depth that brings the rounds to the proper level.... I shall try to get a measurement of it for s & g.

2) Due to the fact i do not want to cut the front out of the mags, so the BG can sit protruding into the mag to start contact for climb of round, I have both a climb and directional loss before stovepiping, which we are trying to now work on with possible solutions to comply with the requirement for running any AR type mag inerted.

3) The Adapter (and this is Not a dig at Nathan, nor the Adapter, this just does not fit this rifle as designed as the rifle, not the Adapter, is not as he has designed for... see number 1). The fact my mag tops sit well lower than up against the underside of the bolt rail guides, you cannot change things if that was not the norm for dimensions of Adapter use. So I am not in issue about this.

4) The mags which I am using, are all out of spec by a long shot..... TAPCO, PMag, and Steel BFI, thus leaving me chacing my tail when it is the mags that are out of wack... doubtful.

I will agree the mags do not insert deep enough...... thus the issues compound..... so, we are working through this so that I can sleep and can also show others who may have the round trunnion .223 and have this adapter desire can see what I did or did not do , and work on how they may find a cure.

Thanks to all for your interest and input.

EL

#13 mancat

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 05:20 PM

Based on your pictures... Leave the trunnion alone. Install a bullet guide and trim the leading edge of it as necessary to allow AR mags to clear.




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