New guy questions - try not to point and laugh!

[Litany Against Fear 1]

I'm a relatively new firearms enthusiast (~2 years) and well new to Saiga rifles and shotguns, AK-47/74 variants, and the conversions between the 2. I was hoping to solicit some advice based on what little I know of these platforms.

 

I've been looking at the Saiga-12 models and found

 

this at Atlantic Firearms. It seems to be this model from Legion USA.

I find the magwell and the LRBHO features attractive. I want to know if these are reasonable prices for Saiga-12 with these options. I've been looking at some of the custom items at the sponsor sites, but I do not know enough to know if there is one that is better for the money or what conversions are most desirable and why. That's where you expert types are needed.

 

Similarly at that Legion USA site, I found their Saiga conversions in AK-74 and AK-47 platforms (currently out of stock). IT seems like the comparable rifles are the Arsenal SGL21 & 31 series rifles. I've learned enough to know that the SGL's were touched by Legion as well. I know they should be built on identical Russian imports, but I've heard that the parts that Arsenal uses may be of higher quality? That confuses me a bit as Legion, at least the Russian parent, has a hand in the SGL models, so how are these better than the the Legion USA models unless the American shop uses sub-par components? Again, I need your expert opinion on price vs.quality.

 

Short version: Ideally I'd like to get a Saiga-12 and a 7.62 Saiga rifle, but I'm lost as to which models are the best for the money and where to get them.

 

Let my education begin. . .

Edited August 6, 2012 by Litany Against Fear

[thebuns1 4,323]

well first and foremost, welcome to the forum. and the rifles that Arsenal put their name on are not just converted saigas. there are many differences. SGL series rifles are built on the military side of the house using the saiga reciever but with mil-spec parts that the basic saigas dont get. many people will argue this, but there are pro AK builders in the business that say otherwise. cant really say anything about the Legion-usa rifles, as im not sure on their connections with Izhmash or Legion for that matter.

 

i have an SGL31 and must say that it really is a top notch rifle. fit and finish is second to none, and overall quality is worth it no matter the caliber you choose. good info can be found here:

 

http://forum.saiga-1...il-spec-barrel/

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/69227-arsenal-545x39/

 

now for your S12 ?, if money is not an issue then there are several business members here who offer thier own builds of the S12. quality builds. or you could do one yourself. just depends on what you want to pay vs. what you want in return. conversions are always fun as you will learn an ass load of info. hope this helps. good luck in your quest.

 

and dont worry, we wont laugh at you.....yet j/k.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Captain Hero

[VR762Shooter 838]

Welcome to the forums. I'll give my feelings on it, and this is likely not what most think. I feel that there is a special connection to a gun that I have to work on that I dont get from just buying something and shooting it. That being said, as much as an Arsenal build is top notch, I would never buy a gun from them. I like the fact that to get a Saiga to work like the AK it was born to be, you must put in effort and blood and time. An Arsenal build may be sweet as hell to go and shoot, but besides potential cost savings, a S-12 or 7.62 will be YOUR gun, not just a cookie-cutter factory produced rifle. You can choose your stock, you can choose your grip, you can LEARN how to do your own work. That is the most important for me. I enjoy learning these guns, their mechanisms and characteristics. An Arsenal may be your choice, and it wouldnt be a bad choice, but to be able to build a rifle into your particular style and to fit you perfectly is a thing of beauty. Good luck in your choice

[Spartacus 1,619]

Welcome to the forum and major points for being a contributor already with 1 post!

 

The S-12's you linked are very nice, but be aware that you are locked into using funky mags with that mag well and can't use drums.

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

Yo OP, what are the functions you wish for each? Home defense? Hunting? Zombies? Paper Targets?

 

Reason I ask is you can spend as much or as little depending on what the function will be. Also we don't know your location (Don't really care), however that may also play into what you can buy and some of the modifications.

 

Welcome to the fun, please review the picture threads in the S-12 and 7.62x39 sections

[MightyLordRay 94]

Welcome! Don't forget we all had to start somewhere.

[Yoshi 87]

To help clarify. Legion USA is just an importer for Saiga guns and no relationship to LEGION on the Russian millitary side, Arsenal being the importer/distributor for them. If you want a Russian rifle thats already done spend the extra $$ and buy an Arsenal. If you want to convert yourself as mentioned you could buy a sporter that will be imported from one of several companies. Thye only difference there is the importer markings. As far as the shotty goes there are several models that have some differences. Like DAD said you'll have to take some time and figure what you want your shotty for and personal preferences etc..

Edited August 5, 2012 by Yoshi

[Litany Against Fear 1]

I returned to this thread opening one eye at a time, but it was decidedly less gruesome than I expected! So of course I have some questions:

 

Legion USA really has no relationship to the Russian Legion? I believe you, but their guy specifically mentioned them as their parent. You'd think they would have taken some heat over that right?

 

Does any magwell on a S12 exclude a drum mag? Do the hi-cap mags from Promag and SGM work? What are the aforementioned "funky mags"?

 

To be continued. . .

Edited August 7, 2012 by Litany Against Fear

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Number one rule of the S12 forum: Avoid ProMag stick mags, their drums have a good rep but the PM sticks are best left alone. Consensus for USA made mags is AGP, SGM and the MD20.

 

"funky mags" means you're limited to modifying (at your trial and error usually) all the normal rock n lock mags to work in the magwell and with the LRBHO mechanism, or buying $100/ea Russian magwell mags. There is no US made magazine designed to work off the shelf, with the LRBHO magwell guns.

 

There is no magwell that will accept a drum. One gent has modified a drum (extended tower) to work in a magwell and JT Engineering has been working on a magwell to accept ANY Saiga magazine but it has not yet been released.

[45Bretired 19]

Yep, what mullet said.

[MightyLordRay 94]

I'm going to give you a personal list of people I've done business with and have nothing, but good things to say about.

 

Saiga-12 store...since you're already in the forum you should swing by there.

 

Carolina Shooters Supply...These guys are awesome. They want your money so bad that they make it worth your while with good business.

 

Tac 47 Industries...Very innovative! They will help your Saiga run as smooth as water, and not break the bank.

 

Chaos...There designs are some of the most sought after pieces. Cameron over at Chaos is very cool. He gave me some valuable advice, and is willing to help.

 

Make sure to check out the "Hall Of Shame" section of this forum to learn about the people you don't want to do business with.

[Litany Against Fear 1]

@MulletMan > So the stick mags (excluding the Pro Mag of course) literally do not fit into the mag well and do not activate the LRBHO? I saw those Russian mags too; now I know why they cost $100! On the 030 model series S12, are that mag well and the LRBHO stock or conversion features? Based on its limitations, is the LRBHO as attractive a feature as I've assumed? I must admit that the hi-cap stick mags and drums are part of the appeal, so maybe I'm mistaken.

 

@MLR > The 1st place I saw those mags was at the Saiga-12 E-store, and as I make my way though the vendors I've perused CSS and Chaos. I'll have to follow up on Tac 47 as well as the Hall of Shame. Thanks for the reco.

 

@Dad2142Dad > In reference to some earlier Q's, both of these would be range guns and home defense. No hunting, but I'd like to be armed in case of the zombie apocalypse.

 

@VR6Shooter > I dig what you mean about converting your own gun. The 2 things that limit my ability to do this are my meager skills and my obsessive attention to detail. Also, I doubt I could do a better job with better parts than Arsenal / Saiga Legion considering how many they've done. That being said, is there a definitive thread on the conversion procedure and the best tools and parts to use?

Edited August 8, 2012 by Litany Against Fear

[Mullet Man 2,114]

@MulletMan > So the stick mags (excluding the Pro Mag of course) literally do not fit into the mag well and do not activate the LRBHO? I saw those Russian mags too; now I know why they cost $100! On the 030 model series S12, are that mag well and the LRBHO stock or conversion features? Based on its limitations, is the LRBHO as attractive a feature as I've assumed? I must admit that the hi-cap stick mags and drums are part of the appeal, so maybe I'm mistaken.

 

1, No they don't fit or work with out modification.

2. They are factory features. I'm not sure if all magwell 030 guns have a LRBHO or not, you'd have to get that from their descriptions.

3. Is subjective. Some people just can't live without it. To me personally, i don't find it attractive enough to warrant the limitations on magazines. If i was a race gunner, it'd probably be a different story.

 

And the Russian mags cost that much because of rarity and they are the pinnacle of robust bullet proof quality in the S12 magazine market. The "rock n lock" Russian 8rd mags cost more then the magwell mags now because the magwell mags have found a US importer, which brings supply up and cost down.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Mullet Man

[VR762Shooter 838]

@VR6Shooter > I dig what you mean about converting your own gun. The 2 things that limit my ability to do this are my meager skills and my obsessive attention to detail. Also, I doubt I could do a better job with better parts than Arsenal / Saiga Legion considering how many they've done. That being said, is there a definitive thread on the conversion procedure and the best tools and parts to use?

 

Well I dont know about a specific thread, but youtube is full of tutorials with how to mod the x39 and S12. I used youtube to go through my Saiga 308 and once you have done one, you can do them. Its all about knowing the insides of the guns. Once you get into it, you'll want to convert some more. Most videos you will see will explain the tools you need to use. I would think about watching a few full videos of conversions before you jump in and get your hands dirty. If it looks too hard, go with an Arsenal. Either way, they're great guns to get into

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

@Dad2142Dad > In reference to some earlier Q's, both of these would be range guns and home defense. No hunting, but I'd like to be armed in case of the zombie apocalypse.

 

Well then I would suggest purchasing them already complete and ready to go. I see your response above to doing your own mods. There are several business members here that either sell the complete unit or you can purchase it and then have someone modify it to what you want.

 

All of mine functioned well out of the box S12, 7.62x39, 223 and 308 however several hundred was spent on each to convert to what I wanted.Try Kvar and see what you think of those, also check out the business members websites to see what they can do. Lots of cool work these people do.

[Litany Against Fear 1]

Well, I've been trying to up my Saiga IQ the last few days and the questions overfloweth.

 

It seems that the SGL rifles that resellers are calling Arsenal are not marked Arsenal any longer, but FIME group, their "sister" company. I can't seem to find a clear answer as to whether Saiga Legion is still involved on the Russian side or if Arsenal still converts them here in the states. What;s the word?

 

@MightyLordRay, thanks for the Tac47 reco. I really like their custom build options!

[thebuns1 4,323]

i noticed this as well about the FIME shit on the SGL rifles. dont know what the deal is either. the images i seen of the recievers has the same markings as the sporters, but with the FIME group on the side where the "Aresenal Inc", used to be. my sgl has "Legion Izhevsk Russia" on the side in place of "made in russia by izhmash".

 

dont know why it has changed, but it shouldnt affect the function of the rifle by any means. but i read that some folks have recently bought an arsenal, and got one of these in its place and were confused about the changes in the reciever markings. i wouldnt worry about it.

 

but to answer your question better, Legion builds the rifles in russia, imports them for FIME and Arsenal to complete.

[Litany Against Fear 1]

I'm not too concerned about the marks if the Saiga legion still selects/exports the rifles and the same quality conversions are being done by Arsenal/FIME staff.

 

It seems disingenuous to call these Arsenal rifles though. . .

[thebuns1 4,323]

i agree.

[Litany Against Fear 1]

Though you might want to see this regarding the SGL's:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/79704-fime-fka-arsenal-sgl-according-to-customer-service/