The solution to all our DD paranoia

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Here's a modest suggestion to solve all our worries about innovating stuff for the Saiga-12 - design and build a different freaking shotgun.

 

We can take the Saiga's example of an upper piston driven long stroke rotating bolt semi-auto detachable magazine fed shotgun and simply design a different one. Instead of designing it to maximize AK interchangeability, design it for optimal simplicity AND to better accomodate our favorite features.

 

For example - a mag attachment system that can take mags wider than the receiver. It would be shades of the USAS and Auto Assault 12, with mags inserting via a rail. Double stack box mags could hold twice the rounds for the length downward, which in my opinion is a friggin big deal. An AOW or SBR version could be made for those wanting full capacity in a shorter shotgun. 10rds without a 26" mag tube or an extremely long mag would make a detachable mag actually practical, instead of slower to load if you're firing more than a couple mags full at a time.

 

All US made and thus we only have to worry about the impulses of the domestic part of the BATF, not those wielding import thumbs up or down like Commodus from Gladiator.

 

And on top of that, a US company would be better geared up to fight any impulsive rulings and possibly even lobby for reform of that stupid law signing away legislating authority to the BATF.

 

What about it getting classified as a DD? Oh boo hoo. We can make more, even with paperwork. Or just design a friggin different one and make it until they DDify it too, and then another, and then another, until the NRA, congress, and our legislators get a clue that they need to reform the BATF.

[McUZI 1]

I am not paranoid about the S12 becoming a DD until there is a democrat president who appoints an antigun AG who in turn is open to the legal petitions of HCI (which is the exact progression that caused the three DD shotguns to be reclassified back during the Clinton years)

 

I do like the concept of that rail guided mag thingie on the AA12.

 

Anyway, far out hypotheticals aside, do you know how much it takes to design, tool up for and bring to bear a totally unique firearm?

 

Lots and lots and lots of $$$ unless you are already in a business where you own a full production facility and have engineers on staff.

Edited October 2, 2005 by McUZI

[BattleRifleG3 16]

It's just a simple humble suggestion. Me, I do in fact plan on making complete firearms. Not going to sell them of course.

 

Know how much it costs to tool up? Depends on how you're manufacturing, how many you intend to make, and what the cost per item will be. If the cost per item is love, the production time is whatever, the production quantity are however many you dog gone feel like making, and the workers are your own not so cold, dead hands, then the cost is actually, believe it or not, quite low. I'd estimate about a grand and a half in tooling, depending on your choice of tools. Make that $2.5k if you don't use anything you already have.

 

Engineering staff. Hmm. Where to I find them... Ooh, what's this... a mirror? I see an engineer inside! If only I could reach inside and pull him out. Aagghh... can't fit in... Aww heck, guess I'll have to do it myself.

 

That would of course be the worst way to hit production. Large scale production requires extremely expensive equipment at a lower cost per item, requiring many to be sold in order to be worthwhile.

 

I've come to the conclusion that no one will make all the guns I want. In time, I expect to buy far fewer and build many more. Of course there are many fine guns out there that top anything I could ever do in most ways. But when there's something that I want my way, well, then it's my turn.

[akspec 0]

Good luck, I hope you have some very positive outcomes.

[pedal2alloy 206]

You'll shoot your eye out kid.

 

But seriously, even John Browning had to start somewhere. Just be careful not to blow yourself up. As I understand it, that bolt locking thing is important.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

In the words of my generation... Duh.

 

Anything I'd make would probably be overdesigned. Meaning just plain bigger and heavier.

 

5 years of engineering school taught me how to tell if something will hold or not, to admit that no calculation can be perfect, to incorporate reasonable safety factors, and how to see problems before they happen.

 

And how to outsorce. The Winchester bolt + barrel lockup is tempting to simply buy and then build a cycling action around.

[shaneman153a 39]

I don't think I have enough "posts" to design my own firearm, the saiga conversion was fun and easy, I'm about to buy myself an AK underfolder kit, but I could see myself really getting into amateur gunsmithing. It's funny to see guys have AK's or SKS's or whatever kind of gun at the range jam up. I go look at it, tell them that it's the mag (or whatever) causing the jam, then I tell them to grind and polish "This part", they look at me like I've got a dick growing out of my forehead. They think if they polish thier trigger it's gonna blow the gun up. Well I gotta say it's most of you guys, and some threads on "gunboards.com" that have given me the confidence to f&^k around with my guns. It's a lot more fun to go shoot a gun that you've improved, grinded on, refinished, handcarved, etc. etc. That would be quite fulfilling to go build a gun from the ground up, or just go build around an existing action.

 

BTW BRG3, when you do get it figured out, put me down for one!

[6500rpm 670]

DD or Not DD

[acetomatoco 0]

DD or Not DD

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ATF Frequently Asked Questions

(A29) Are "potato guns" or "spud guns" legal? [back]

 

"Potato guns" or "spud guns" generally consist of sections of PVC plastic tubing and fittings and are designed to launch a muzzle-loaded potato (or other similar-size projectile) using hair spray or other aerosol vapor as a propellant. The propellant is ignited by means of a barbecue grill igniter or other similar ignition system.

 

Section 5845(f), Title 26, United States Code, regulates certain weapons as "destructive devices" which are subject to the registration and tax provisions of the National Firearms Act (NFA). Section 5845(f)(2) includes within the definition of "destructive device" any type of weapon which will or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel of which has a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter. However, section 5845(f)(3) excludes from the definition of "destructive device" any device which is neither designed or redesigned for use as a weapon and any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device. The definition of "destructive device" in the Gun Control Act (GCA), 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, is identical to that in the NFA.

 

ATF has previously examined "potato guns" or "spud guns" as described above and has generally determined that such devices using potatoes as projectiles and used solely for recreational purposes are not weapons and do not meet the definition of "firearm" or "destructive device" in either the NFA or GCA. However, ATF has classified such devices as "firearms" and "destructive devices" if their design, construction, ammunition, actual use, or intended use indicate that they are weapons. For example, ATF has classified such devices as "firearms" and "destructive devices" if they are designed and used to expel flaming tennis balls.

 

Possession and use of "potato guns" or "spud guns" may be restricted under State laws and local ordinances. Further, any person intending to make, use, or transfer any such device must be aware that they have a potential for causing serious injury or damage.

 

(A30) How do I obtain a classification from ATF for my "potato gun"? [back]

 

ATF is unable to respond to e-mail requests for classification of "potato guns," "spud guns," or other similar devices. Any person desiring a classification of such devices must submit a written request to the Director executed under penalty of perjury and include a complete and accurate description of the device, the name and address of the manufacturer or importer, the purpose of and use for which it is intended, and such photographs, diagrams, or drawings as may be necessary to make a classification. A final determination may require physical examination of the device. Such requests for classification should be submitted to:

 

Bureau of ATF

Firearms Technology Branch

244 Needy Road

Martinsburg, WV 25401

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I don't think I have enough "posts" to design my own firearm, the saiga conversion was fun and easy, I'm about to buy myself an AK underfolder kit, but I could see myself really getting into amateur gunsmithing.  BTW BRG3, when you do get it figured out, put me down for one!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Heh, some folks think it is a matter of post count. Just something to keep on learning and don't stop, no matter how slowly it goes or what else happens in life. A few years ago, I very cautiously and patiently converted my X39 after much consideration and a wee bit of fear and trembling. A year ago, I timed myself, not cutting any corners of course. Next came building an AR from parts, then came building a stamped AK on a US receiver. I'm in the midst of making a receiver of my own design, and it just keeps on going from there. Eventually I do hope to work up to building complete guns on my own from scratch. Making them not only safe, but reliable and possibly better than something out there - now that will be a challenge.

 

The one part I may never make is a barrel, ie rifling it myself. But hey, you never know.

[shaneman153a 39]

Alright 6500, fork over the plans, I've been wanting to make one of those bastards for years! Don't know why I haven't done it yet......

[Lagomorph 0]

well, i had the idea of building an upper and bolt assembly that functions thru an AR-10 lower receiver. If youve been on the forum for a little while, then you know 12 gauge shells will fit in any double stack .308 magazine, several people here have tried to make magazines out of M-14 and G3/cetme magazines. Converted M14 magazines are what the AR-10 magazines use anyways. If someone could make an upper it would be very hard for the atf to justify banning the AR-10. considering how many are in circulation. $.02

[McUZI 1]

That is a damn good idea about the 12 gauge AR10 upper.

I wouldn't buy one, but i'm sure plenty would.

Edited October 3, 2005 by McUZI

[Z1500 0]

If the S-12 is declared a DD I'll be making some special 80% AK receivers. So turn in your IZHMASH receiver, then make you own gun out of your parts kit. DD shoties are defined by name not by feature list. You're new home made toy will meet all federal laws.

 

That being said I really don't think the "Sporter" Saiga-12 is going to end up on the DD list. It's a lot different than the others that have made the list.

 

Kevin

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I thought of that too for the AR-10. I think it may be one of the best ideas going. I had the idea of building a new lower for an AR-120 upper at one point, that would take G3 mags. It's been done somehow somewhere before.

[SaigaK 0]

well, i had the idea of building an upper and bolt assembly that functions thru an AR-10 lower receiver

 

Sounds like an USAS to me.

 

Everyone does call the USAS an AR15 on steriods.

[G O B 3,516]

12GA upper for an AR-10 sounds like a great idea.

 

G O B

[Bvamp 604]

I had asked tony rumore about a 410 ar15 upper. he didnt think it was a simple matter at all, and said it was something that was probably cost prohibitive. dunno bout the ar10 idea though.

 

on a side note, how is it that flaming tennis balls makes a spud gun a DD, and a flamethrower isnt a dd? granted, state laws affect flamethrowers and other nonsense (slingshots for instance), but am I the only one that thinks this is strange? If i were in a state where I can spray napalm 100 feet out, I cant shoot a flaming tennis ball. hmmm. these politicians need to be strung up or something. thats plain stupid.

[Griz 1]

I am getting excited and considering my state of health that may or may not be a good thing.

 

 

Make it 10 gauge. Use the longest barrel for an Ithaca 37 Police. Ten round magazine

 

 

Firing a 1.75 ounce slug down range at over 1000 fps, intrigues me

Compensate anyway you want with brakes or pads that's fine.

But a semi-auto 10 gauge with a ten round Mag

and made in the USA would make anybody toe the line.

 

I thank you

 

[shaneman153a 39]

Do they make rufus rounds for 10 gauge?

 

How's that for a DD? F*(&^ers!

[McUZI 1]

on a side note, how is it that flaming tennis balls makes a spud gun a DD, and a flamethrower isnt a dd?

 

Because a tennis ball is a 'projectile' where there is nothing in the federal legal language that would allow them to prohibit a flamethrower which is essentially a giant squirt gun.

Since there is clear federal language the delineates what can and cannot be owned in a projectile firing weapon (with bore restrictions) but there isn't any federal language addressing pressurized tanks that squirt liquid, they regulate flaming tennis ball spud guns because they CAN whereas the law affords them no such legal footing to do the same to flamethrowers.

 

Stupid.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I pray that some idiot doesn't shoot someone with a tater and spoil the fun for all the rest of us. It's ok to have a launcher but ONLY for entertainment and NOT for aiming at anything living. Mine will put a spud out almost of sight and there's a 15 second hang time before it comes splashing down into the pond. Just the sound it makes is enough to help with our annual resident Canada geese invasion problems.I would hate to see the damage a spud would inflict on a human body. I have seen them go through a hollow exterior door, continue through a house about 15 feet and take out a window including the wooden panes. That to me sounds a lot more dangerous than a tennis ball, flaming or not. By the way this was an abandoned house on my own property, don't try this UNLESS you're at home.

[ForGreatJustice 1]

Why bother with a new gun? What's stopping us from hacking up a Remington 1187 and chucking a valtro mag into it (aside from the fact the Valtro mags are a B*** to get)? And after that the Mossberg 9200?

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Do you know how the internals of the Remington semi-auto shotguns work? They're friggin wierd.

 

Main reason standard tube fed semis aren't so easy to convert is a bunch of things like feed angles and such. They have not a follower, but a lifter to raise the shells into exactly the right andle for chambering. Anyone wonder why the Knoxx Drum inserts in the mag tube of a Mossberg 500? Because it still requires that lifter to work correctly.

 

There comes a point where you put so much work into an existing gun that you wonder how much harder it would be to design and make a new gun.

 

Believe me - I know.

[inparidel 4]

I am not paranoid about the S12 becoming a DD until there is a democrat president who appoints an antigun AG who in turn is open to the legal petitions of HCI (which is the exact progression that caused the three DD shotguns to be reclassified back during the Clinton years)

 

I do like the concept of that rail guided mag thingie on the AA12.

 

Anyway, far out hypotheticals aside, do you know how much it takes to design, tool up for and bring to bear a totally unique firearm?

 

Lots and lots and lots of $$$ unless you are already in a business where you own a full production facility and have engineers on staff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's uninformed, loudmouthed, ignorant mouthbreathers like you that have been responsible for the sad state of firearms laws in this country. The Republican party, under Republican presidents (that you have apparently been electing in your ignorance), that has been the SOLE author of the worst anti-gun legislation in US history. I am tempted to let your sorry ass figure out what I mean, but that would require that you read a decade's worth of newspapers, which is precisely what your ignorant ass hasn't done.

 

The '89 "mil-type firearm ban authored by the pen of the spineless, ass-kissing, daddy Bush has kept ALL imported mil-type rifles out of the country with a PERMANENT BAN accomplished by an executive order, not just passed on his ignorant watch, but PENNED by him PERSONALLY as an exec order. That bit of law has kept out ALL mil rifles (G3, Galil, CETME, SIG 500 series, FAL and too many for me to want to type for your sorry, ignorant ass).

 

That's what begat the "no sporting purpose test" that has plagued law abiding gun owners ever since. Then, if you weren't too drunk to notice, there was the closing of the repair loophole that allowed the importation of parts kits for the guns I mentioned, so our grandchildren will be able to use those fine machines with new parts. As of August 2005, the REPUBLICAN BACKSTABBING SCUMBAGS have closed the that exception with a complete barrel ban, so now the grandfathered guns that were allowed in will wear out and experience extinction, like the dinosaurs. That is a FIRST, and is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. But the REPUBLICAN COCKSUCKERS have screwed us AGAIN.

 

Keep whitewashing the bastards. Assholes like you are what they count on. You are their dream come true. Kep your head in the sand (up your ass).

Edited October 9, 2005 by inparidel

[McUZI 1]

Edited October 9, 2005 by McUZI

[bernerz 11]

I pray that some idiot doesn't shoot someone with a tater and spoil the fun for all the rest of us. It's ok to have a launcher but ONLY for entertainment and NOT for aiming at anything living. Mine will put a spud out almost of sight and there's a 15 second hang time before it comes splashing down into the pond. Just the sound it makes is enough to help with our annual resident Canada geese invasion problems.I would hate to see the damage a spud would inflict on a human body. I have seen them go through a hollow exterior door, continue through a house about 15 feet and take out a window including the wooden panes. That to me sounds a lot more dangerous than a tennis ball, flaming or not. By the way this was an abandoned house on my own property, don't try this UNLESS you're at home.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Cobra 76 two, if its any consolation, I work in a fairly busy ER and I have seen a number of projectile injuries but none yet from a potato (yet!). Seen some interesting nail gun injuries though (one should never look down the barrel of a loaded gun, any gun!).

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Bump on this idea due to continued DD paranoia.

[Caspian 32]

SAS12 + Knox Drum. that's probably your best bet.

 

i have a SAS-12 that i got for around $99 when SOG was clearing them out. tack on a $80 drum and you have a helluva set-up for under $200.

 

The SAS needs some tweeking when you buy it. I have to hand cycle the action about 100+ times with a coat of CLP to smooth it out. I also cut the barrel down to 18" and had to tweek the gas system. this is done by screwing in the rod which holds the foregrip. moving it in and out determines how much gas is allowed to bleed off. i may open the gas port a bit more this weekend to make it more reliable w/o tweeking.

 

Anyway, for $99 it's a helluva gun. Don't know if anyone has any left, but it would be a good platform for the drum idea.

 

Maybe Tony can chime in since i know he has some experience in working these.

 

caspian

[kmoore 3]

SAS12 + Knox Drum. that's probably your best bet.

 

i have a SAS-12 that i got for around $99 when SOG was clearing them out. tack on a $80 drum and you have a helluva set-up for under $200.

 

The SAS needs some tweeking when you buy it. I have to hand cycle the action about 100+ times with a coat of CLP to smooth it out. I also cut the barrel down to 18" and had to tweek the gas system. this is done by screwing in the rod which holds the foregrip. moving it in and out determines how much gas is allowed to bleed off. i may open the gas port a bit more this weekend to make it more reliable w/o tweeking.

 

Anyway, for $99 it's a helluva gun. Don't know if anyone has any left, but it would be a good platform for the drum idea.

 

Maybe Tony can chime in since i know he has some experience in working these.

 

caspian

 

Have you done the conversion? If not, have you looked at the towers? Does it look like you could change the tower out on the knoxx for the SAS?