No blocked ports, FTE with with buckshot on a stock gun. (First time

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

To the OP, what I am trying to say here is when you have a Saiga 12 that is new and is even getting FTE with buckshot, there is something wrong and you aren't going to fix it by buying any after market parts to replace the originals. You may "trick it" into running by using a featherweight puck or piston, a gas regulator with a more directly channeled flow path, and lighter recoil & main springs.... but doing that isn't "fixing" the problem. The problem lies in the high friction areas that can be smoothed out with proper re-profile & polish, and also in the actual ports themselves, or in many cases the orifice in the bottom of the GB obstructing flow,

Telling people to "skip all that polishing stuff" and go putting other parts in there willy nilly will only confuse the issue.

[BOB A. BOOEY 45]

To the OP, what I am trying to say here is when you have a Saiga 12 that is new and is even getting FTE with buckshot, there is something wrong and you aren't going to fix it by buying any after market parts to replace the originals. You may "trick it" into running by using a featherweight puck or piston, a gas regulator with a more directly channeled flow path, and lighter recoil & main springs.... but doing that isn't "fixing" the problem. The problem lies in the high friction areas that can be smoothed out with proper re-profile & polish, and also in the actual ports themselves, or in many cases the orifice in the bottom of the GB obstructing flow,

Telling people to "skip all that polishing stuff" and go putting other parts in there willy nilly will only confuse the issue.

 

I think polishing is a great idea. Ive done it myself, I think the gas plug is a great idea too. I dunno if it helped anything but I took most peoples advice on here but getting advice from the guy whos business is charging people for that service I unsurprised that all you do is encourage polishing vs giving CSS $40 for a low brass kit but then again I know you've heard that before. Perhaps YOU should be done hi-jacking this guys thread

Edited August 27, 2012 by BOB A. BOOEY

[vulcan16 971]

To the OP, what I am trying to say here is when you have a Saiga 12 that is new and is even getting FTE with buckshot, there is something wrong and you aren't going to fix it by buying any after market parts to replace the originals. You may "trick it" into running by using a featherweight puck or piston, a gas regulator with a more directly channeled flow path, and lighter recoil & main springs.... but doing that isn't "fixing" the problem. The problem lies in the high friction areas that can be smoothed out with proper re-profile & polish, and also in the actual ports themselves, or in many cases the orifice in the bottom of the GB obstructing flow,

Telling people to "skip all that polishing stuff" and go putting other parts in there willy nilly will only confuse the issue.

 

I think polishing is a great idea. Ive done it myself, I think the gas plug is a great idea too. I dunno if it helped anything but I took most peoples advice on here but getting advice from the guy whos business is charging people for that service I unsurprised that all you do is encourage polishing vs giving CSS $40 for a low brass kit but then again I know you've heard that before. Perhaps YOU should be done hi-jacking this guys thread

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Bob lemme inform you about something... a few things actually, even though to you, my opinions don't really count since I happen to be a vendor...

 

First and most important... Do you think I want your money? I would much rather get a day or a weekend off to take Racegal20 to the beach, to be perfectly honest,

 

Regardless of what you or anyone else thinks, I'm not here for the money. The services I provide, and the very small amount of profit they may bring, if any sometimes.....per my time spent... do a whole lot more in terms of allowing people to enjoy their vodka specials for the very first time, than putting me and my gal in a steak house, or behind the wheel of a nice car,...etc. Trust me that sure as hell ain't the case. Bottom line, I don't make shit really, when you consider how much time I stay wrapped up in this forum....24 hrs a day, more often than not....8 days a week. I'm currently so backlogged in fact I have been turning a lot of business away. So no I sure as hell am not fishing around in the forum threads trying to pimp my parts & services, I don't need to. People ring my phone off the hook and fill my inbox all the time, to the point where I have no spare time. If you see me offer some advice, on something I happen to be extremely knowledgeable and experienced with, think whatever you want to but my intentions are mainly to help someone who doesn't know their way around this platform yet. I happen to care enough that I do enjoy helping folks. Look back as far as you want in the archives here, and you wiill see I have been doing just that for much longer than I've been a vendor here, in fact since long before there WERE ANY vendors here. Don't insult me please, with any more of the same bullshit that last idiot tried to do in another thread...claiming I was not someone who should be listened to, simply because I happen to perform the service that can benefit the operation of the S-12 more than any other thing. Why the hell do you think I chose that as a main focus originally??? When I started doing it there was nobody else offering that as a stand alone service, I found out by modding my own guns, just how big a difference it made, so I set out to fill the void that existed. Now, between the people I have polished their parts, and the others who have taken my advice or learned from myself or others and done it themselves...as well as all the lucky folks who have had guns custom built by Tromix, Red Jacket, Lonestar Arms, Tac 47, JT Enterprises,....etc, I think you should open your eyes and see that it really is the way to go, FIXING the problem....not puting a damned band aid on it. In closing I'll also let you know that the effort and attention to detail we all (myself and the others vendors that do reliability work) put into it, is not the huge profit farm people might think it is. It;'s extremely time consuming and there is absolutely NO room for error. I screw up somebody's bolt and I have to buy them a whole new gun. You try doing that kind of work day in and day out for folks, and taking breaks once in awhile to hand out advice. Then let's see how the hell you feel when someone tries to accuse you of being a shark, just swimming around looking for victim's with money.

 

As far as "jacking the thread goes, that BS too. This 'discussion' is very much on topic actually. Obviously there are folks who still don't understand the benefits, OR the motivation involved here.

 

Later

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Bob lemme inform you about something... a few things actually, even though to you, my opinions don't really count since I happen to be a vendor...

 

First and most important... Do you think I want your money? I would much rather get a day or a weekend off to take Racegal20 to the beach, to be perfectly honest,

 

Regardless of what you or anyone else thinks, I'm not here for the money. The services I provide, and the very small amount of profit they may bring, if any sometimes.....per my time spent... do a whole lot more in terms of allowing people to enjoy their vodka specials for the very first time, than putting me and my gal in a steak house, or behind the wheel of a nice car,...etc. Trust me that sure as hell ain't the case. Bottom line, I don't make shit really, when you consider how much time I stay wrapped up in this forum....24 hrs a day, more often than not....8 days a week. I'm currently so backlogged in fact I have been turning a lot of business away. So no I sure as hell am not fishing around in the forum threads trying to pimp my parts & services, I don't need to. People ring my phone off the hook and fill my inbox all the time, to the point where I have no spare time. If you see me offer some advice, on something I happen to be extremely knowledgeable and experienced with, think whatever you want to but my intentions are mainly to help someone who doesn't know their way around this platform yet. I happen to care enough that I do enjoy helping folks. Look back as far as you want in the archives here, and you wiill see I have been doing just that for much longer than I've been a vendor here, in fact since long before there WERE ANY vendors here. Don't insult me please, with any more of the same bullshit that last idiot tried to do in another thread...claiming I was not someone who should be listened to, simply because I happen to perform the service that can benefit the operation of the S-12 more than any other thing. Why the hell do you think I chose that as a main focus originally??? When I started doing it there was nobody else offering that as a stand alone service, I found out by modding my own guns, just how big a difference it made, so I set out to fill the void that existed. Now, between the people I have polished their parts, and the others who have taken my advice or learned from myself or others and done it themselves...as well as all the lucky folks who have had guns custom built by Tromix, Red Jacket, Lonestar Arms, Tac 47, JT Enterprises,....etc, I think you should open your eyes and see that it really is the way to go, FIXING the problem....not puting a damned band aid on it. In closing I'll also let you know that the effort and attention to detail we all (myself and the others vendors that do reliability work) put into it, is not the huge profit farm people might think it is. It;'s extremely time consuming and there is absolutely NO room for error. I screw up somebody's bolt and I have to buy them a whole new gun. You try doing that kind of work day in and day out for folks, and taking breaks once in awhile to hand out advice. Then let's see how the hell you feel when someone tries to accuse you of being a shark, just swimming around looking for victim's with money.

 

As far as "jacking the thread goes, that BS too. This 'discussion' is very much on topic actually. Obviously there are folks who still don't understand the benefits, OR the motivation involved here.

 

Later

I don't think any explanation was necessary. Anybody who does 10 min of research can learn the benifits. Doesn't mean they can do the work.

[gunfun 3,931]

New guy, sorry your first experiences with this forum have so much drama. For what it's worth, Cobra and Jets are pretty much bang on in what they are saying. It might be a waste of time to call out Bob, a newish guy who has been dispensing a lot of advice, but hopefully others will be saved some of his mistakes.

 

It looks like you are one of the few who gets a really lame gun, and that should be easily solvable with the services cobra is talking about and/or some gas work. It is exactly what every established builder who specializes would do, give or take some personal touches on the exact contours of the profile, etc. 1. make sure there is adequate gas flow 2. deal with any binding and friction issues. 3. Enjoy. IMO send it to one of the vendors here or carefully follow the stickies and DIY. The vendors are specialists and will do a much better job than your local smith is likely to do, even if he is a good smith. You look for the cardiologist who does the most bypasses, not the one who is closest to you. I have seen a lot of threads from people who had good local smiths take a long time to do backwards fixes to saiga 12s. I've also seen a lot of threads from people who bought reliability kits and then ended up getting the proper service done.

 

When the best experts make a step by step guide and you follow it to the letter, you will do better than a generalist because you have the best info and you care more about your own gun. Either way you win.

 

Bob- about the only thing you have said on this forum that made much sense was when you called out Russian Hammer for being an overbearing bully. I can't think of a single bit of technical advice you have given that I didn't think about correcting. I haven't before, because someone else always stepped in and gave the correct information. How about waiting for a few months and using your stuff a while before you hand out any more advice to other new guys? Maybe wait until you have a gun that works well? You should be happy with the service that Jack does, if he is the one servicing your gun. It will work, and that is a good way for some people to go about things. If you are happy with his work, plug it. Don't knock other people's services that you haven't tried. Jet does seem to have a vendetta here, but the thing is he is right The advice you are giving people could cost them money and frustration. You do contradict yourself a lot.

Edited August 29, 2012 by GunFun

[BOB A. BOOEY 45]

Sadl

New guy, sorry your first experiences with this forum have so much drama. For what it's worth, Cobra and Jets are pretty much bang on in what they are saying. It might be a waste of time to call out Bob, a newish guy who has been dispensing a lot of advice, but hopefully others will be saved some of his mistakes.

 

It looks like you are one of the few who gets a really lame gun, and that should be easily solvable with the services cobra is talking about and/or some gas work. It is exactly what every established builder who specializes would do, give or take some personal touches on the exact contours of the profile, etc. 1. make sure there is adequate gas flow 2. deal with any binding and friction issues. 3. Enjoy. IMO send it to one of the vendors here or carefully follow the stickies and DIY. The vendors are specialists and will do a much better job than your local smith is likely to do, even if he is a good smith. You look for the cardiologist who does the most bypasses, not the one who is closest to you. I have seen a lot of threads from people who had good local smiths take a long time to do backwards fixes to saiga 12s. I've also seen a lot of threads from people who bought reliability kits and then ended up getting the proper service done.

 

When the best experts make a step by step guide and you follow it to the letter, you will do better than a generalist because you have the best info and you care more about your own gun. Either way you win.

 

Bob- about the only thing you have said on this forum that made much sense was when you called out Russian Hammer for being an overbearing bully. I can't think of a single bit of technical advice you have given that I didn't think about correcting. I haven't before, because someone else always stepped in and gave the correct information. How about waiting for a few months and using your stuff a while before you hand out any more advice to other new guys? Maybe wait until you have a gun that works well? You should be happy with the service that Jack does, if he is the one servicing your gun. It will work, and that is a good way for some people to go about things. If you are happy with his work, plug it. Don't knock other people's services that you haven't tried. Jet does seem to have a vendetta here, but the thing is he is right The advice you are giving people could cost them money and frustration. You do contradict yourself a lot.

 

Interestingly enough for those of us who dont live our life on here nor spend our odd hours taking apart our gun and working on it doesnt mean we dont know how it works. My gun has shot fine since the day I got it. IT WORKS WELL. I polished the inside, I added a gas plug and at long last Its been converted. Im unsure why advising someone to spend $25 on gas plug is considered reckless. You think the business members on here that sell those items would agree with you? There are a lot of folks on this sight who are argumentative, nasty and are what I would characterize as "gun snobs", pretty much the same douchebags in gun shops who hate people who "think they know". I got news for you those folks are the ones that keep people in business. Im not getting into a dick measuring contest with every person on here who ptiches a fit when someone says something that contradicts their expert advice. The fact is that no one knows everything about these guns, no one even knows whether they will shoot out of the box so what works for one person may not work for another. Not everyone wants to spend an additional $1000 on their Saiga to get it properly converted etc. Its a hobby not their life. Aint it possible that a gas plug might tide someone over until theyre ready to get it properly converted, if ever? Is it damaging your gun? Of course not. I have supported many business members on here and I'm struggling to understand who's services youre referring to. I've watched your videos man and you post on here everyday and you truly seem to know a lot so I will heed your advice but quite honestly I'm just not that committed. Its just a gun dude, one of many I own, not my central pre-occupation. Hows that for clear, concise and non- contradictory.....

Edited August 29, 2012 by BOB A. BOOEY

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

You have one gun, that "worked fine out of the box" So you have no base of experience to value the benefits of polishing. Or any experience trouble shooting. Yet your denouncing advise from experienced gun smiths,a few amateur and a pro (really all the pros do some polish/reprofiling). How exactly do you intend to justify that?

[BOB A. BOOEY 45]

You have one gun, that "worked fine out of the box" So you have no base of experience to value the benefits of polishing. Or any experience trouble shooting. Yet your denouncing advise from experienced gun smiths,a few amateur and a pro (really all the pros do some polish/reprofiling). How exactly do you intend to justify that?

 

Sure I have a base, my fucking shotgun shoots everything and shoots it well. Let me quote myself...again. I didnt write above that mine worked 'fine right outta the box; I said it shot "fine since day one". I had purchased a gas plug for it just in case...on day one. It FTE'd on low brass stuff, in went the gas plug no more FTE's. Gas plug solved the problem. I then polished my internals, rails, bolt, carrier and trigger per EVERYONES advice. I dont think I needed to but I did anyway cuz why not. Let me remind all that haters that I only said something about gas plug vs polishing in two threads and perhaps I misspoke which is to say I said get a gas plug and forget all that polishing.What I meant was get a gas plug FIRST and then polish....just like I did. Tell ya what why dont you spend a couple of hours sifting through every remark I've made on here and quote them in my threads. I'm really enjoying all the attention. I'm giving advice on the most mundane issue associated with this shotgun. I'm not telling folks to cut or drill or add this or remove that. This nonsense is nothing more than ego dude. A buncha little boys. I admit it I'm the anti-christ. You got me......

Edited August 29, 2012 by BOB A. BOOEY

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

I may have miss quoted you on "outta the box". I don't think changing a plug is "reckless" but it's not the first step. It's an after market option, not a remedy to malfunction.

I only jumped in because it was MY comment you quoted in this thread.

[MT Predator 2,294]

You can reprofile and polish your bolt but can't do a simple conversion?

No shit! Hasn't answered that one yet.

Bob, let's see the pics of your reprofile and polish job for shits and giggles.

[Salt1219 176]

Maybe it would be best if we all took the high road and just let this one go. I would hate to have this be the first impression of the forums a new member gets.

 

On a side note i am curious about bolt polishing and reprofiling. I hear paully is one of the best but im also curious about doing it my self.

Any tips?

Edited August 30, 2012 by Salt

[Long Shot 1,287]

Maybe it would be best if we all took the high road and just let this one go. I would hate to have this be the first impression of the forums a new member gets.

 

On a side note i am curious about bolt polishing and reprofiling. I hear paully is one of the best but im also curious about doing it my self.

Any tips?

 

I took mine to Pauly. After I got it back I have no question in my mind that was the right choice. His work is outstanding and he really knows his shit.

 

He also walked me through the gas port fix. The trigger work he does is a major improvement as well.

 

No Yes

( ) (X) I would recommend this service to a friend.

[Salt1219 176]

Thanks, i think when all the home buying mess im going through is over i will be giving him a call

[gunfun 3,931]

Thanks, i think when all the home buying mess im going through is over i will be giving him a call

 

You could send it home with Andrew on Sunday. Pauly is in portland.

[misterT 174]

Well I did a little polishing on my FCG and the bolt and carrier before firing any rounds. I doesnt look like glass, but it does feel quite a bit smoother. I cant wait to go shooting saturday! I am waiting to buy anything untill I put some rounds through it. I am curious as to why many have stated in threads that their gun ran fine untill it was converted?

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Well I did a little polishing on my FCG and the bolt and carrier before firing any rounds. I doesnt look like glass, but it does feel quite a bit smoother. I cant wait to go shooting saturday! I am waiting to buy anything untill I put some rounds through it. I am curious as to why many have stated in threads that their gun ran fine untill it was converted?

Mainly because the new hammers have a different profile than the Russian hammer. Compare them side to side when you get a chance.

[dcgregorya 5]

(Im long winded, the last paragraph sums it up)

 

Had my gun about 5 days, and have done no modifications at all. I did sit down and manually cycle the bolt a few billion times, and I could see where the paint was now missing. I also pulled the gas adjuster off, then used a feeler gauge to verify there are 4 unblocked ports. They might be a touch small, (Nothing to compare to) but all four seem to be in place and clear.

 

Today was day one at the range. No mods, and we started with some buckshot because I knew it would reliably fire it, and my first few shots wouldn't be disappointing. I fired the first 10, then handed it to a buddy to fire the another 5. Shockingly, it had two FTE problems for him! This is NOT with birdshot, this is with buckshot.

 

Now, I believe that the issue is partially he is a piss poor shooter. This was the ONLY high brass FTE for the day. Fired another 40 rounds of high brass, then about 75 rounds of birdshot. We also had some FTE issues with birdshot. (An assortment of 25 round boxes, mostly 1200 and 1250 velocity)

 

Now, I know this is not uncommon. This issue happens all the time for new Saiga 12 owners. I am concerned about how to proceed. Many people have suggested its important to make absolutely sure to make sure your gun is running well, completely unmodified, before changing anything. Beating it up with a few hundred rounds is supposed to be unnecessary. On the flip side, I bought mine at a local "Brick and motor" store and dont want to do anything that will void my warranty if this gun turns out to be a lemon.

 

The options I see, listed in order of cost, and listed with the possible catch.

 

#1. Remove the paint from the rails, using a dremel tool. Clean and lube all the surfaces where the bolt and the receiver slide. Im concerned that taking a dremel to it will void the warranty

 

#2. New gas adjuster. The MD Vplug comes to mind, or the Tac-47. This would show me if I am close, and hopefully get rid of my fear that I bought a lemon. Leaves my warranty in tact, and supposedly increases the gas flow. The most experienced people on the site say that its important to make the gun function well in its completely stock state....

 

#3. Glass bolt modification. The only downside is the cost, but from what I understand, will make my gun near perfect.

 

I have recieved conflicting input on how to proceed with a new gun, warranty in tact, that seems under-gassed and unreliable. A few FTE with birdshot I expected. Two FTE with higher brass seemed worth posting a question about though.

 

If all you had was two buckshot FTE's for your friend then :

 

1) He might've loaded the mag wrong. 2 & 3/4's need to sit back properly in the groove or it will eject the old one and fail to load the new one. Ironically I've had it mess up shots that were 3-4 shells ahead of the one that was messed up - had the empty out the clip and reload it.

2) Was he using the magazine as a grip AK style? That doesn't work well with the Saiga 12 magazines generally. At least, not if you grip one of the plastic ones like you're trying to choke the shit out of it.

 

Seems like you got your issues fixed but, honestly, 2 FTE's back to back out of 100+ rounds sounds to me like flaky reloads or a loading/handling issue.

Edited October 19, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Paulyski 2,227]

because from what you wrote:

 

 

I fired the first 10, then handed it to a buddy to fire the another 5. Shockingly, it had two FTE problems for him! This is NOT with birdshot, this is with buckshot.................then about 75 rounds of birdshot. We also had some FTE issues with birdshot.

 

did the FTE occur with your buddy, because if it did, it's not the gun, but him. in which case there is nothing wrong with the gun.

 

 

FTE can also be attributed to "wimp-wristing", not holding the firearm "solidly". this is really common with semi-auto pistols, but can be with a semi-shotgun

 

Suppose you

...

 

 

Even if the guy is handeling the gun with a weak grip you want to be able to cycle the Saiga 12 from the hip imo.

+1

 

 

Well I did a little polishing on my FCG and the bolt and carrier before firing any rounds. I doesnt look like glass, but it does feel quite a bit smoother. I cant wait to go shooting saturday! I am waiting to buy anything untill I put some rounds through it. I am curious as to why many have stated in threads that their gun ran fine untill it was converted?

Mainly because the new hammers have a different profile than the Russian hammer. Compare them side to side when you get a chance.

+1

Hammer profile really helps.

 

[misterT 174]

Many Thanks, I will take a good look at the hammer profiles, I am still trying to decide on the best FCG. I did see that Dinzag has some that are machined from solid bar stock and heat treated. I have seen that others have recommended the Arsenal FCGs, there are just so many different parts available! To the OP I am following the advice of most on here to shoot it a while before buying parts to "fix" it.