Gauging interest in metal magazines

[TheGerman 8]

I'd be interested in some 8 rounders.

 

The main issue besides function/reliability, obviously, would be the cost. If they are the same price (or more) than a polymer 8 rounder, you are going to run into issues as people would rather buy something that already exists and was tested than buying a new metal mag. I know there are design and material costs involved, but figure out what you can realistically do because after the initial 'OMG!1 i want that' phase is over, its going to come down to price.

 

If these were reliable AND cheaper than current polymer offerings, they would be all I'd buy. Think about that angle in your design and production cycle.

[FOURBUX 22]

I'd be interested in some 8 rounders.

 

The main issue besides function/reliability, obviously, would be the cost. If they are the same price (or more) than a polymer 8 rounder, you are going to run into issues as people would rather buy something that already exists and was tested than buying a new metal mag. I know there are design and material costs involved, but figure out what you can realistically do because after the initial 'OMG!1 i want that' phase is over, its going to come down to price.

 

If these were reliable AND cheaper than current polymer offerings, they would be all I'd buy. Think about that angle in your design and production cycle.

 

Metal is going to inherently be more expensive than plastic. The additional material cost and durability I would hope would command a higher price. The only price point I've been comfortable putting out there at this stage is that I'd like them to be "less than $100." Especially in initial runs, the price of the magazines MAY be around that and will probably come down over time. The problem is that initial tooling/mold/CNC costs will have to be wrapped up in the price of initial runs. I wouldn't actually be seeing any profit until at least hundreds of these had sold. Everything would be going to pay off the initial investment. That is why this thread is so crucial - I need to know that I will at least break even on this project in order to feel comfortable moving forward. I'm fine with operating on a narrow profit margin, but certainly not with making an investment that goes nowhere because "people want cheap." I am NOT interested in taking preorders unless, for some reason, people are okay with that. It has been my understanding that taking money on vaporware has been a sore subject with the community here, and understandably so. I do not want to fall into that, and so it will be a much, much higher cost directly to me if I move on this idea.

 

I want to do this right - I understand that if these magazines offer reliability and durable, metal construction that there may be a good chance these magazines see actual combat. For that reason, I'm hoping to maintain high manufacturing standards, and unfortunately there will be an associated cost with that. I'd love to be able to offer them at SGM prices - a max of $45 for their largest magazine, but I just don't see that being realistically feesible. In addition, this product would offer much more solid construction than the SGM mags (not that SGM makes bad products - their 12 round is my favorite magazine).

 

I'm still up in the air about which material to go with.

 

Cobra, after reading your post I want to lean towards aluminum, but my concern is that aluminum is relatively soft, and with the prevalence of mag wells and the new ones that are coming out, I get the sense that these magazines will need to be able to "drop free" and survive a fall from at least 5 feet. Perhaps aluminum will work, and at the very least it won't rust. There are still lots of pros and cons to both - anyone with input on materials or the other issues on this project, I am listening!

[rs51085 136]

As far as material goes. Aluminum would be the best. Besides the weight savings. If you look at the mag wells that are out there theyare mostly made out of aluminum not steel. Aluminum mags would wear better against an aluminum magwell. A steel mag might damage the softer aluminum magwell. If that happens magwell owners are not going to buy these.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Cobra, after reading your post I want to lean towards aluminum, but my concern is that aluminum is relatively soft, and with the prevalence of mag wells and the new ones that are coming out, I get the sense that these magazines will need to be able to "drop free" and survive a fall from at least 5 feet. Perhaps aluminum will work, and at the very least it won't rust. There are still lots of pros and cons to both - anyone with input on materials or the other issues on this project, I am listening!

 

Something Shannon doesn't mention is that those steel mags were made by a guy whose family makes oil pans for dirt track race cars and the steel he used was the same as they use to make some of those oil pans out of. They were purposely made way overkill. They were not made with production cost, production time, ease of assembly, or weight in mind. I at one time, owned three of them, two 8's and one 10rd.

Look at what CSSpecs has done with steel magazines for all the different models he makes them for. His Saiga .308 mags sell like hot cakes and the number of people that own Saiga .308's does not even come close to the amount of people that own S12's. They sell for around $50ea if i'm not mistaken.

 

Thin stamped sheet steel with reinforcing ribs, steel floor plates, anti tilt followers and strong rust resistant springs, is what is needed for a good combination. Copy any surplus AK magazine and you have a winner.

Aluminum IMO, would sky rocket the price (material and assembly) beyond what most people would want to pay.

 

If these mags were around $100 (give or take some), i personally would look beyond them and spend an extra $50 on Russian 8's. They hold value, they work all the time, are beefy as all get out and they weigh less.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Mullet Man

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Steel will simply be too heavy.

 

If stamped sheet metal or aluminum I will consider buying. If steel I will NOT buy.

 

Try lugging around 4 or 5 eight to ten round fully loaded steel mags and you will see my point. The extra weight and extra expense would be a deal breaker for me....

[TheGerman 8]

I'd be interested in some 8 rounders.

 

The main issue besides function/reliability, obviously, would be the cost. If they are the same price (or more) than a polymer 8 rounder, you are going to run into issues as people would rather buy something that already exists and was tested than buying a new metal mag. I know there are design and material costs involved, but figure out what you can realistically do because after the initial 'OMG!1 i want that' phase is over, its going to come down to price.

 

If these were reliable AND cheaper than current polymer offerings, they would be all I'd buy. Think about that angle in your design and production cycle.

 

Metal is going to inherently be more expensive than plastic. The additional material cost and durability I would hope would command a higher price. The only price point I've been comfortable putting out there at this stage is that I'd like them to be "less than $100." Especially in initial runs, the price of the magazines MAY be around that and will probably come down over time. The problem is that initial tooling/mold/CNC costs will have to be wrapped up in the price of initial runs. I wouldn't actually be seeing any profit until at least hundreds of these had sold. Everything would be going to pay off the initial investment. That is why this thread is so crucial - I need to know that I will at least break even on this project in order to feel comfortable moving forward. I'm fine with operating on a narrow profit margin, but certainly not with making an investment that goes nowhere because "people want cheap." I am NOT interested in taking preorders unless, for some reason, people are okay with that. It has been my understanding that taking money on vaporware has been a sore subject with the community here, and understandably so. I do not want to fall into that, and so it will be a much, much higher cost directly to me if I move on this idea.

 

I want to do this right - I understand that if these magazines offer reliability and durable, metal construction that there may be a good chance these magazines see actual combat. For that reason, I'm hoping to maintain high manufacturing standards, and unfortunately there will be an associated cost with that. I'd love to be able to offer them at SGM prices - a max of $45 for their largest magazine, but I just don't see that being realistically feesible. In addition, this product would offer much more solid construction than the SGM mags (not that SGM makes bad products - their 12 round is my favorite magazine).

 

I'm still up in the air about which material to go with.

 

Cobra, after reading your post I want to lean towards aluminum, but my concern is that aluminum is relatively soft, and with the prevalence of mag wells and the new ones that are coming out, I get the sense that these magazines will need to be able to "drop free" and survive a fall from at least 5 feet. Perhaps aluminum will work, and at the very least it won't rust. There are still lots of pros and cons to both - anyone with input on materials or the other issues on this project, I am listening!

 

Oh I understand how pricing and capitalization works, its what I do at work all day.

 

My point is however, since you were asking for what people would buy so that you could eventually recoup your investment as well as a sustainable margin to continue the entire cycle. The problem that I saw right off the bat was pricing. And I don't mean it in a sense that you're simply more expensive than the next guy, because if his product is lacking and your's isn't, people would be willing to come off of more money for the better product. However, what can your mag do, that current production mags of similiar price can't? I mean, you would have to TRY to beat the everliving shit out of most (not all, but most) mags to get them to fail as well as taking into consideration that the most failures actually occur from a problem within the spring or follower; not the material of the outer magazine.

 

You would have 2 strategies to consider; either throw a hail mary and price the first run to break even or wharever you want to be margin wise and pray they sell/have good reviews and then make more affordable mags (in the process pissing some of the 'beta testers' off) or look at this over a longer period and abide by price optimization theory, as in, if you lower the price by 10$ and only make 5$ profit per mag, yet sell 3 times as many because of the price your model works out better.

 

Totally up to you, and I can really appreciate someone wanting to start something on their own. You asked, so I told you, telling me your mags would be 'less than $100' makes me assume they'd be almost twice as much as current polymer mags or on par with the propriatary mags for the 030; if that occurs I don't see this catching on.

Edited August 9, 2012 by TheGerman

[FOURBUX 22]

 

Oh I understand how pricing and capitalization works, its what I do at work all day.

 

My point is however, since you were asking for what people would buy so that you could eventually recoup your investment as well as a sustainable margin to continue the entire cycle. The problem that I saw right off the bat was pricing. And I don't mean it in a sense that you're simply more expensive than the next guy, because if his product is lacking and your's isn't, people would be willing to come off of more money for the better product. However, what can your mag do, that current production mags of similiar price can't? I mean, you would have to TRY to beat the everliving shit out of most (not all, but most) mags to get them to fail as well as taking into consideration that the most failures actually occur from a problem within the spring or follower; not the material of the outer magazine.

 

You would have 2 strategies to consider; either throw a hail mary and price the first run to break even or wharever you want to be margin wise and pray they sell/have good reviews and then make more affordable mags (in the process pissing some of the 'beta testers' off) or look at this over a longer period and abide by price optimization theory, as in, if you lower the price by 10$ and only make 5$ profit per mag, yet sell 3 times as many because of the price your model works out better.

 

Totally up to you, and I can really appreciate someone wanting to start something on their own. You asked, so I told you, telling me your mags would be 'less than $100' makes me assume they'd be almost twice as much as current polymer mags or on par with the propriatary mags for the 030; if that occurs I don't see this catching on.

 

I only put "less than $100" because I have no initial pricing estimates at all yet, but that would be around the target price that I think the market would bear. I understand the "what's special about yours" argument, and it is another facet of this project I am considering. Ideally the extra strength in the magazine would be the selling point. I have considered adding some design features to the magazine to assist with loading, but I am unsure rather or not this would be too "gimmicky."

 

The operative word is quality. I want these to be at least as nice as the factory mags. I intend to prove that with videos of hard, repetitive testing of the prototype. I understand that magazines are relatively simple and similar in their function. I am not targeting the "I want the cheapest" crowd. They will buy polymer all day. I'm looking for the "I want quality" crowd. They will be looking for dependability and durability, and I think that's where these magazines come in.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

K.I.S.S.! No loading assist.

 

Copy/duplicate any AK surplus magazine and you will have a winner! I will bet my S12 on it.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Mullet Man

[csspecs 1,987]

Cobra, after reading your post I want to lean towards aluminum, but my concern is that aluminum is relatively soft, and with the prevalence of mag wells and the new ones that are coming out, I get the sense that these magazines will need to be able to "drop free" and survive a fall from at least 5 feet. Perhaps aluminum will work, and at the very least it won't rust. There are still lots of pros and cons to both - anyone with input on materials or the other issues on this project, I am listening!

 

Look at what CSSpecs has done with steel magazines for all the different models he makes them for. His Saiga .308 mags sell like hot cakes and the number of people that own Saiga .308's does not even come close to the amount of people that own S12's. They sell for around $50ea if i'm not mistaken.

 

Thin stamped sheet steel with reinforcing ribs, steel floor plates, anti tilt followers and strong rust resistant springs, is what is needed for a good combination. Copy any surplus AK magazine and you have a winner.

Aluminum IMO, would sky rocket the price (material and assembly) beyond what most people would want to pay.

 

We charge about $45 plus shipping for the 20 round .308 mags. And we move a decent amount of them.

 

Our Saiga 20 gauge mags are a pretty good indication of what a Saiga 12 mag would weigh if made of steel. They are right at 13 ounces for the 10 round, the 12 gauge would probably be around 14-15 ounces.

[toothandnail 275]

if your serious about building mags. build a 10 rounder for the MKA1919. no competition.

 

In the process

 

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Also a double-stack mag would be nice too.

thanks for reminding me about what I was pissed off about the the last few months of 2011.... way to go

 

 

DAMN YOU!

Edited August 10, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Cobra, after reading your post I want to lean towards aluminum, but my concern is that aluminum is relatively soft, and with the prevalence of mag wells and the new ones that are coming out, I get the sense that these magazines will need to be able to "drop free" and survive a fall from at least 5 feet. Perhaps aluminum will work, and at the very least it won't rust. There are still lots of pros and cons to both - anyone with input on materials or the other issues on this project, I am listening!

 

Something Shannon doesn't mention is that those steel mags were made by a guy whose family makes oil pans for dirt track race cars and the steel he used was the same as they use to make some of those oil pans out of. They were purposely made way overkill. They were not made with production cost, production time, ease of assembly, or weight in mind. I at one time, owned three of them, two 8's and one 10rd.

Look at what CSSpecs has done with steel magazines for all the different models he makes them for. His Saiga .308 mags sell like hot cakes and the number of people that own Saiga .308's does not even come close to the amount of people that own S12's. They sell for around $50ea if i'm not mistaken.

 

Thin stamped sheet steel with reinforcing ribs, steel floor plates, anti tilt followers and strong rust resistant springs, is what is needed for a good combination. Copy any surplus AK magazine and you have a winner.

Aluminum IMO, would sky rocket the price (material and assembly) beyond what most people would want to pay.

 

If these mags were around $100 (give or take some), i personally would look beyond them and spend an extra $50 on Russian 8's. They hold value, they work all the time, are beefy as all get out and they weigh less.

 

Yes Mulletman, actually I covered the subject of weight quite well in my PM conversations with the OP, and then some. I was using this mag as an example of how heavy a steel mag CAN be, while stressing the fact it could be much lighter weight if made of stamped steel, ribbed and spot welded just like an AK mag....

 

From my post BTW...

"A thin sheet metal stamped body built exactly like an AK 30 rd ribbed mag would be ideal though, and not as heavy".

[saltydecimator 482]

dunno if this has been mentioned, but as heavy steel drops to ground, there is a good chance the extra weight of the steel will add to the deformation upon impact with hard surface

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Yes Mulletman, actually I covered the subject of weight quite well in my PM conversations with the OP, and then some. I was using this mag as an example of how heavy a steel mag CAN be, while stressing the fact it could be much lighter weight if made of stamped steel, ribbed and spot welded just like an AK mag....

 

From my post BTW...

"A thin sheet metal stamped body built exactly like an AK 30 rd ribbed mag would be ideal though, and not as heavy".

 

 

Congratulations.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

We charge about $45 plus shipping for the 20 round .308 mags. And we move a decent amount of them.

 

Our Saiga 20 gauge mags are a pretty good indication of what a Saiga 12 mag would weigh if made of steel. They are right at 13 ounces for the 10 round, the 12 gauge would probably be around 14-15 ounces.

 

Thanks for that. I just wanted to compare the fact that the amount of people who own S.308's is far outnumbered by the amount of S12 owners. And from what i have followed of your mags, especially for the S.308, it seems that they sell pretty damn well in a ratio to ownership aspect.

 

While you're in here, would you opine as to why you never got into the steel S12 mag market?

[pedal2alloy 206]

If these mags were around $100 (give or take some), i personally would look beyond them and spend an extra $50 on Russian 8's. They hold value, they work all the time, are beefy as all get out and they weigh less.

 

Russian 8's are $150 so for $100, people would buy aluminum mags because they would be 10 rounders and weigh the same or less.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

If these mags were around $100 (give or take some), i personally would look beyond them and spend an extra $50 on Russian 8's. They hold value, they work all the time, are beefy as all get out and they weigh less.

 

Russian 8's are $150 so for $100, people would buy aluminum mags because they would be 10 rounders and weigh the same or less.

 

I put in bold my quote, for emphasis. The Izzy 8's will always have their following, for their own set of reasons. There is no arguing that.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Mullet Man

[csspecs 1,987]

We charge about $45 plus shipping for the 20 round .308 mags. And we move a decent amount of them.

 

Our Saiga 20 gauge mags are a pretty good indication of what a Saiga 12 mag would weigh if made of steel. They are right at 13 ounces for the 10 round, the 12 gauge would probably be around 14-15 ounces.

 

Thanks for that. I just wanted to compare the fact that the amount of people who own S.308's is far outnumbered by the amount of S12 owners. And from what i have followed of your mags, especially for the S.308, it seems that they sell pretty damn well in a ratio to ownership aspect.

 

While you're in here, would you opine as to why you never got into the steel S12 mag market?

 

Simple. I did not have the production capability.. I'm almost there. We have been changing old products over to use the higher speed presses so that everything can be built quickly, that way we can add more product lines.

[Crumble 1]

I'd gladly pay $50 - $60 for them, for 10 rounders. Any higher than $60 and I'd opt for plastic mags. You would sell a ton of them if you can keep them under $60.

 

Although, if they were titanium *hint hint*, I would pay $100.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Crumble

[Jon_L 6]

Tagged for interest.

 

I like the idea of some 8-rounders.

[Azkamidaka 26]

K.I.S.S.! No loading assist.

 

Copy/duplicate any AK surplus magazine and you will have a winner! I will bet my S12 on it.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

There are some very good reasons why the orig. Russian 8's are the creme of the crop, and worth what they sell for. Same reasons you don't see any Russian 10's like they made for the 20 ga and .410 shotties.