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FIME (fka Arsenal) SGL according to customer service. . .


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After contacting a few resellers (e.g. Atlantic Firearms) regarding supposed Arsenal rifles arriving marked as FIME Group, I was assured these were the exact same SGL21's that were stamped as Arsenal/Legion. Unsatisfied with their responses, I decided to contact the (re)manufacturers myself. I messaged Arsenal, FIME, and K-var independently and received responses quite literally moments apart. Here's our discourse:

 

To Arsenal from me:

 

"Is FIME a "sister" company to Arsenal? Are the new SGL 21 rifles identical to those that were previously marked Arsenal( i.e. is Saiga Legion in Russia still involved in the selection and export, while Arsenal converts the rifles here in the US? If not, what has changed?

 

Response from Annette in Arsenal customer service:

 

"FIMR Group is the importer and manufacturer of firearms and they are the new partner for the Izhmash factory. Currently they are working very closely with us, to include using our parts and I think they got left over boxes and targets. Their firearms are exactly the same as ours and I have been impressed with the few I have seen around town. Their rifles are the same one that we were importing, the only change really has been that FIME Group is importing them instead of Arsenal Inc. They will continue importing and manufacturing the SGL series line of products with the same high quality components and according to the original technology.

 

They are available thru K-Var Corp (www.k-var.com) or 702-364-8880."

 

From Jacalyn? at FIME in customer service (in response to a similar inquiry:)

 

"Thank you for contacting The FIME Group regarding our SGL line of rifles.

We are Izhmash’S new official partner in the US.

Saiga Legion has been incorporated into the Izhmash factory and the rifles they are producing are of the

same original Legion technology. The only thing that has changed is the name on the receivers.

We have a close working relationship with Arsenal, Inc and will continue to use

their US made components in our manufacturing so you can expect the same high quality and standards.

Thank you for your interest and your support."

 

To K-var from me:

 

"Are the SGL21's still exported by Legion in Russia? I know the markings no longer read legion Izhmash. Other retailers are still listing them as Arsenal / Legion collaborations."

 

From Elias El Khoury in Sales @ K-var

 

"The new SGL’s are imported by FIME Group straight from the Izhmash factory."

 

I'm debating whether to buy an SGL21-61, but I'm finding it difficult to just accept that the new SGL's are indeed exported with Legion's approval and converted by Arsenal when they have neither marking and both companies are indicating that they are not the same by telling me that they are.

Edited by Litany Against Fear
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i find it hard to swallow as well, but all i can gather from the above is that Arsenal is no longer the official partner to Izhmash in the US, regarding the SGL's. If Arsenal is not "remanufacturing" these, then they are'nt an Arsenal product, but a FIME gun with Arsenal Inc, products put on. but if they are the same guns than nothing should have changed as far as quality, reliability and shit like that. i found some interesting info here, as well as a pic of the new markings:

 

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_80/144132_Arsenal_SGL21__FIME_Group_SGL21.html

 

at this point its hard to say as i havent got to see any in person, so i cant really say anything negative on it other than i really dont care for the shit dot engraving in the pic.

 

i plan on picking up another sgl sometime soon and really dont give a fuck what it says on the side, so long as the overall quality is there and they dont try to market it as an Arsenal product.

 

but if Arsenal is no longer putting their names on the SGL series, it makes me wonder what plans they may have in store for future releases. (if any).

 

time will tell.

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FIME Group has been around for a few years and is not new Legion and Izmash have been sister firms for years . There was a shake up in the Izmash Arsneal ealier this year with a supposed bankrupsy etc so they have restructured and also gotten a new head of operations . We are not aware of any structual diffrences in the rifles other than the markings .

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if its the same legion gun that Arsenal was getting a year ago, then i doubt anything has changed on it other than the markings. it should run just as good as the former SGL's.

 

im not really worried much about it, its just confusing shit. huh.png

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It seems misleading to sell them under the Arsenal name though. The K-var site seems to have stricken any specific mention of Arsenal (or Legion for that matter) from the SGL product descriptions. Judging from those responses though, it seems like they are going to a lot of trouble to advertise the cache of the Arsenal brand while being careful to avoid definitively mentioning that Arsenal is handling the conversions.

 

While the FIME versions could be superior for all I know, it is misleading to list them under the Arsenal banner (and charge the Arsenal premium) when the company is not directly involved in the importation or conversion by their own account.

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Palmetto State Armory tried this shit with me earlier this year. I ordered a FN hammer-forged barrel, and I got an unmarked barrel. They told me the same thing, their numbers match and they assure me it IS the FN barrel I ordered. Ok, But ill tell you the same thing i told them;

 

If the site says "FN" (or "Arsenal") it better damn say it somewhere on my product/paperwork that can be verified in the future. I dont see people paying over $1k for "FIME" marked rifles (yet?), but people will drop that in a new york minute for an Arsenal. Part of what you are paying for is the reputation. Without that you may as well get a conversion from corner jimmy. I may keep this rifle forever, or maybe not. Or my son may need to sell it, or his son, whatever. I dont want ANYONE in my family getting lowballed by hundreds (thousands?) of dollars because some crappy company was too lazy to do an exchange and give me the correct product I paid for in the first place. The right guns, properly marked/paperworked, can be an investment as well as a toy. Protect your investment.

 

If you ordered a cadillac would you accept something badged Chevy Impala? I assure you, they function the same! wink.png

Edited by mostholycerebus
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I couldn't agree more. There is a reason why these rifles are being called just like an Arsenal, without actually calling them Arsenal. Now the company may not want to divulge that info, but then the price must come down. You can't expect to build a brand and then charge a mint for "exactly like this brand, but not really."

 

Doesn't it make you want to ask if the rifles are imported by a sister company in the same city, and then converted using identical parts supposedly, why is Arsenal effectively removed from the process? It doesn't smell right, especially at that price.

Edited by Litany Against Fear
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Maybe there isn't a whole lot being discussed from the industry end because there isn't anything to discuss.

 

An SGL whether it be from Arsenal or FIME is still a Saiga rifle with parts changed. It'll be on us end users to let you know if anything is fucked up. Without any bad reports, it's just a name change. Whether it be Prince or 'The artist formerly known as Price', Purple Rain sounds just as sweet. haha.gif

 

They could have done a better job with the engraving though.

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I know what you mean, but we all know Prince and his music regardless of his name. With these rifles it's the opposite. The branding tells us that it carries the quality of Arsenal and Legion. I had never heard of FIME before this, so it isn't reasonable for them to "borrow" the equity that the Arsenal brand name implies. Again, these rifles may be of superior quality, but FIME must build their name just like Arsenal did before they try charge Arsenal prices.

 

Minor update: one large online retailer I had contacted changed the description to mention FIME instead of Arsenal. The other model sgl's still read as Arsenal though. . .

Edited by Litany Against Fear
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Yeah, I do agree with you that the sellers listing them as Arsenals is not good. Makes it seem shady. But that is on them, not Arsenal or FIME. AND, unless we are straight up being lied to, the barreled receiver still comes from Legion. It was my understanding that Arsenal was the parent company to FIME, but the email response only said they were working closely with each other. WTF does that mean?

 

I bought one of the new SGL 21-71s. I got a very good price on GB, so I went for it. It looked very nice out of the box. The left side of the receiver is marked SAIGA up front as usual and FIME towards the back. Nothing else anywhere. The finish is about what I expected. Not super great, but better than a stock Saiga. The piston was a tad tight on the carrier, but is loosening up after 500 rounds. The lower HG was a little loose, but a toothpick shim tightened it up beyond belief. The dust cover is slightly crooked....like the sheet was slightly off center when stamped. These are all Izhmash factory issues, and not really a big deal IMO. The GB and FSB are straight.

 

It was dead on at 100 yds out of the box and seems to be the most accurate AK I own....even over my Saiga .223 with tech sights. I still need to do a side by side comparison though. There's not really much more to say about it.

 

I for one hope the FIME marking lessens resale value. It'll mean a better deal for those of us who aren't bothered by these things, and I never plan on getting rid of my AKs anyway.

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Folks please keep in mind there may not ALWAYS be a Huge conspiracy behind everything that goes on maybe there is a legal importation or tax reason behind it not a conspircay to defraud or other. Anytime there is a change the internet pops up with tons of wild ideas they are the same rifles with the same conversions just diffrent name stamped on them .There are multiple reasons why a firm would break up their product line name into seperate firms usually tax and legal reasons .Our firm has multiple wings all with sperate Corporations but under one general leadership.

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@ jbanzai

 

Does the rifle have any reference to Russia or Izhmash with regard to markings? I wasn't sure if "nothing else anywhere" meant nothing extra or literally no other marks besides saiga and FIME. That would be more troubling.

 

@ Atlantic firearms

 

I didn't mean there was a conspiracy, but at best it's a mistake to list these rifles as Arsenal when the company itself indicates that they are not. At worst it makes it appear as if we are being scammed when it's really a strategic change by Arsenal/FIME.

 

And not to be a d*ck, but as was mentioned, the retailers are the ones augmenting this confusion by listing these rifles as Arsenal.

Edited by Litany Against Fear
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There was more than I remembered apparently. The FIME (off the pic to the right), Made in Russia by Izhmash, the serial #, and the symbol beneath the 2 rivets are dot and look to have been added later.

post-36765-0-48590200-1345257409_thumb.jpg

Edited by jbanzai
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Folks please keep in mind there may not ALWAYS be a Huge conspiracy behind everything that goes on maybe there is a legal importation or tax reason behind it not a conspircay to defraud

 

I never meant to imply a conspiracy. Rather, the fact that to the end user the name IS everything, even though to the manufacturer the product may be identical. Look at what an end user will pay for a mint Buick Grand National with matching numbers. Compare that price to a Grand National clone with mismatching parts. They may have EXACTLY the SAME capabilities, and in fact the clone could be superior, but the original will always have more value.

 

Now imagine you bought a new car, then found out it was in a front end collision on a previous test drive and repaired to new condition. Functionally the same as new, but would you expect to pay full price?

 

Just an illustration that names alone have great value, and just because a product may be supposedly new and functionally identical, they are not of identical value from the consumers point of view.

 

If you can't update your website to reflect current actual inventory in this day and age, you need to hire a better IT guy.

Edited by mostholycerebus
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Folks please keep in mind there may not ALWAYS be a Huge conspiracy behind everything that goes on maybe there is a legal importation or tax reason behind it not a conspircay to defraud

 

If you can't update your website to reflect current actual inventory in this day and age, you need to hire a better IT guy.

 

i dont have any problems with thier site.

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We can not speak on behalf of Arsenal but we do see usually product lines split up for importation and legal reasons . Since there are multiple product lines coming in to them from multiple countrys there is probably a issues using the same importation name etc. The good news is they are still bringing in nice product !! We just got in some of the Bulgarian SLR 101 Milled AK rifles and for $1000.00 they are a awesome deal we are very pleased to see these again.

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Folks please keep in mind there may not ALWAYS be a Huge conspiracy behind everything that goes on maybe there is a legal importation or tax reason behind it not a conspircay to defraud

 

I never meant to imply a conspiracy. Rather, the fact that to the end user the name IS everything, even though to the manufacturer the product may be identical. Look at what an end user will pay for a mint Buick Grand National with matching numbers. Compare that price to a Grand National clone with mismatching parts. They may have EXACTLY the SAME capabilities, and in fact the clone could be superior, but the original will always have more value.

 

 

This is an ideal analogy (one I was struggling to make!) We understand that nothing sinister is afoot whether it be tax or legal reasons that caused the import branding to change, but the point is that it DID change. Furthermore, the brand name matters, and if the the company under which the rifles are being listed explicitly mentions they are not formally involved, they should not be advertised as such (even if you are certain they are of the same quality as their predecessors.)

Edited by Litany Against Fear
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