poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 You know, maybe we are looking at this wrong. If people start hating the S12 then less will be interested in buying them, and the price will drop, or at least reamain constant. So I'm jumping on the banwagon "Them Say-guh are pieces of chit ma'n. I'm getting me somethin merican made like a benlli!" 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acutedeath 2 Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 When I bought my Saiga-12, new-in-box, it ran the very first box of 25 Estate light target loads without a hitch. I never had a single malfunction until after I converted it (with Tapco fcg). I started getting lots of FTE after that. I'm choosing to blame the parts, not my work. I'm currently having the internals rehabilitated, so hopefully I get back the reliability I started with. From my point of view, the Saiga-12 is made to a higher standard than the common conversion parts. Maybe I got a lucky gun, but I have much respect for this platform. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) It's a price of crap cheap AR, the point was that the perceived unreliability of the S12 is perpetuated by people who test the guns reliability with ammo it was not designed for (out of the box). That's all. I wasn't trying to be at odds with you by quoting you, I was just continuing the flow of the conversation with my opinion and attempt at an analogy. Cool. I understand. ;-) The proper ammo issue is debatable. This site is proof of that. People come here and ask why they can't run Winchester low brass and they will get a bunch of folks telling them their gun will never run it and then a bunch of folks telling them (where are you evil? ;-) that they can with some work. On top of that you've got a bunch of different theorys as how to make it run, how many and what size and patterns of ports to run, what the best plug is, wheather a new plug is needed, what puck to use, how to reshape a carrier and bolt, how to polish, how to break a gun in and/or or why it is not necessary, how to lube it, what the best mag is, etc., etc. Its no wonder people give up an call it a POS. You've gotta admit, the S12 as imported NIB has issues. The trigger sucks. The ergos suck. Limiting it to five rounds sucks. ONLY being able to reliably shoot high brass sucks. Not knowing how many and what size of ports you might end up with sucks. In my case, a canted FGB sucked (twice). My broken bolt carrier sucks. Etc. I love these things, that's why I have 10 of them. But they can be frustrating as hell, especially to a newb and especially a NIB gun. Cheers Edited August 22, 2012 by sunnybean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BOB A. BOOEY 45 Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 The "review" was extremely lame. But, you gotta admit, his main point is valid. The vast majority of S12's are POS straight out of the box. It gets a bad rap because it deserves it. Name one other gun out there that has so many reliability and QC issues right out of the box and isn't known as a POS. Most people do not buy a gun an expect to spend 20 hours dinking with it (and/or more $$$) just to get it running. Just because this little group of gun nuts know and love the bitch doesn't mean the general public shares our opinion. I think my main problem is that he percieves himself as having more credibility because all the "experienced" shooters who tested this thing with him. Mine shot fine right out of the box, it shot 00 buck and slugs with no problem. We want these guns to shoot inexpensive ammo for they are not designed so yes anyone with that in mind would have to do some work but how much work is it really. I knew very little about rifles and even less about shotguns much less semi-auto shotguns so prior to purchasing my S12 I did tons of research and very wisely joined this forum where I was able to learn and continue to learn from those who know. I was able to avoid many of the pitfalls I read about on here for that reason. A low brass kit and a dremel and mine has had no FTE's since Ive owned it other than when I'm setting my gas plug properly. To condemn a shooting platform because of one outing with a gun in its basic form is ignorant and irresponsible. PS - Many a day have a seen an AR-15 at the range with FTEs or FTFs right out of the box. Ive watched their owners lose their minds trying to figure out how they just tossed $1100 in the shitter. Any semi-auto rifle can have issues, including some with very respectable names stamped on the side. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ewoketeer 35 Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 I think the thing that irks most people is that this a Kalashnikov-action, known for its legendary reliability. For myself, I was dismayed when a friend of mine got an S-12 and had nothing but trouble. This was after he loads of fun shooting mine... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 When I bought my Saiga-12, new-in-box, it ran the very first box of 25 Estate light target loads without a hitch. I never had a single malfunction until after I converted it (with Tapco fcg). I started getting lots of FTE after that. I'm choosing to blame the parts, not my work. I'm currently having the internals rehabilitated, so hopefully I get back the reliability I started with. From my point of view, the Saiga-12 is made to a higher standard than the common conversion parts. Maybe I got a lucky gun, but I have much respect for this platform. Sounds like all you need to do is probably going to be profile the hammer a bit for drag. You might be marginal on gas. Also check to make sure that your bolt carrier is not clipping the retaining plate (if you used one) under your left side rail. I bet money it is one of those, which can be a 10 minute job to fix, not counting getting the pieces back in. Sounds like sunnybean is doing my job for me. I will argue whichever side of this argument is not being stated, but both sides are covered here. The only bit I will address is the "intended only for buck" argument That one is pure b.s. They put a #2 setting on it because they intended it to fire low brass. The factory and all sellers say it will do low brass, izh made cheezy videos showing it firing low brass and claim that it will fire "all 12 gauge" Manufactureres should be expected to live up to their claims. I like the gun, because it is worth it to get it working, and most do work. The ones that don't work come here. Most semi shotguns are very picky about ammo and require constant cleanining. S12 catches crap because they claim more than they deliver and their QC is all over the map. Other manufacturers tend to be more honest about what range of ammo their autoloaders can handle, and thus do not draw the ire of their customers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Desolo 55 Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 I have to say that it looks like the guy just sorta looked at the people using the S-12 to great effect and said "OH-OH! ME TOO!" without doing ANY research at all.... Then got pissed when it wasnt making him invincible in 3 gun. Against people who know the weapon and practice its manual of arms.... quite funny really. never mind the fact he is comparing a stock unit to freaking race guns. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acutedeath 2 Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Sounds like all you need to do is probably going to be profile the hammer a bit for drag. You might be marginal on gas. Also check to make sure that your bolt carrier is not clipping the retaining plate (if you used one) under your left side rail. I bet money it is one of those, which can be a 10 minute job to fix, not counting getting the pieces back in. Thanks for the suggestions. It had enough gas to run when it was stock, so I blamed the hammer. Then I messed with it long enough to decide I was doing a bad job and sent it off to Pauly (3 months ago). I think that in a few weeks I'll have a gun that works. I bought a retaining plate in the meantime but I've never heard of that plate issue; so thank you for the heads-up. I guess I was just trying to back up the Saiga by saying that mine worked perfectly until I messed with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
moose421 0 Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Heck, I am new to the S12. I bought a converted gun. I installed the Tac47 auto gas plug and have not had any FTE's I have shot both 3" mag buckshot and low powered trap loads. The only problem I have is my mags are new and the first couple of rounds don't feed. I pull back the bolt and let it slam home. Then it feeds. It has improved since running several full mags though it. I love this gun. She shoots great and I have plans for more improvements. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Heck, I am new to the S12. I bought a converted gun. I installed the Tac47 auto gas plug and have not had any FTE's I have shot both 3" mag buckshot and low powered trap loads. The only problem I have is my mags are new and the first couple of rounds don't feed. I pull back the bolt and let it slam home. Then it feeds. It has improved since running several full mags though it. I love this gun. She shoots great and I have plans for more improvements. How's that autoplug work with the 3"? Their website says not to use with 3". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 it works fine for some people, and a couple of guys have reported that it can cause failures to feed. I find it works fine and use a buffer to provide insurance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 it works fine for some people, and a couple of guys have reported that it can cause failures to feed. I find it works fine and use a buffer to provide insurance. Mine shoots fed bulk no prob. I just got the autoplug(thnx tac47), and can't wait to get it on and tuned. I figured if its tuned to low brass it should do fine with highbrass. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 It is fine for sure with 2 3/4" high brass. Manufacturer says no 3". I suggest that if you use 3" anyway, you put masking tape on the back trunion and take a few shots to see if the bolt is smacking the masking tape. If you rotate the autoplug, it is similar to the "off" settings on adjustible plugs, and that is another option for the times you run 3" Obviously this is all at your own risk. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 It is fine for sure with 2 3/4" high brass. Manufacturer says no 3". I suggest that if you use 3" anyway, you put masking tape on the back trunion and take a few shots to see if the bolt is smacking the masking tape. If you rotate the autoplug, it is similar to the "off" settings on adjustible plugs, and that is another option for the times you run 3" Obviously this is all at your own risk. Of course, understandable. I only have a few 3" left so I'll throw in the factory plug for that and burn thru them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spindrift 6 Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 I had to LOL at the part where it "Took a chunk out of "his hand. I remember that like it was yesterday. Like a GD meat slicer. I sucked it up when it shaved a chunk out of my knuckle... but the SECOND slice in the same spot made my eyes water. LOL. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
moose421 0 Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Ok, Didn't know that I couldn't shoot the 3". My fault didn't read. Only have a couple of them and shot them out. Will stay with the 2 3/4" Thanks for the heads up. Kim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pro2A 17 Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 The man discredited himself in the first line of the second paragraph where he can't tell the difference between a shotgun and a rifle. AMEN And doesn't he clear the stovepipe improperly? i.e. turning counterclockwise, and pulling it out, as opposed to clockwise, and letting gravity do the work? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BOB A. BOOEY 45 Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 This guy afraid to do a little work to have a really awesome gun to shoot? A very little work. Its amazing how many responses he got from the other ignoramus' that know pretty much dick. He sounds like he's almost enjoying his ignorant review. Whatever. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pt92 4 Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 My Saiga 12 has never given me a problem but I had mine customized by Will years ago and it's run like a champ since day one with any ammo. I have never fired a stock Saiga 12 so the only thing I can say is it may require some attention to get it to cycle ALL types of ammo. But here's the thing, I bought a $700 NIB 1187P about five years ago and it will not reliably cycle anything except buck/slugs which it will run ALL day long--birdshot in my 1187P is a joke and there is nothing I can do about it unlike the Saiga which can (relatively speaking) easily be configured to fire anything. Another thing, when I purchased my 1187P (no joke) it jammed on the very first shot with a SLUG--same deal the following five shots much to my chagrin! Remington is notorious for shipping their shotguns with chambers that MUST be polished or the extractor will no eject the spent hull/case. Once I took a drill to it with steel wool and 'shaved' her down, bang, bang, bang evertime. Point is IMO if someoe wants a tactical shotgun that will run anything out of the box absent some attention, I say go with a Pump. However, if you are willing to do a little work here and there a semi-auto sg cannot be beat! And yes, I would take my Saiga 12 over both my 500 or 1187P. -Cheers 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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