Slugs For Cheap

[gunfun 3,931]

I must admit I registered on this site for this thread only. Don't own a Saiga, and chances are they will never be legal were I live. I do however own a 870, and this thread gave me a load of info. It's the 1st time I've read about the whole process of swapping shot for slugs. Everybody else just warns against it. I'm eager to try this myself, got both a LEE 1oz and a Lyman 525grains Foster type mold (Whish now I'd bought the sabotversion, but I doubt I'll see any big diff as I shoot a smoothbore with a fixed cylinder choke.

 

Cudos to Squishy for taking the time to record his actions. Not only was the information valuable, it was also enjoyable reading.

 

As for roll crimping, I bough one of these:

http://slugsrus.com/.../product65.html

 

Looks like something you could make with simple means. The benefit is uniform length. Roll crimping freehand with a battery drill isn't easy. I've made some rather short shells I never dared to fire before I got this contraption in the mail. Roll crimps on slugs look rather good though, and it's very easy to separate them from regular shot shells.

 

Also got a rustbucket MEC600jr that I hope to restore to a usable state. Smelt like a farm tool when I got it (hay mixed with heavy duty grease), rather reminded me of my grandad and thus wasn't all bad, bud had to get the rather thick layer of grease and debree off.

 

Didn't mean to pollute this thread, but it's got my vote for a stickie.

 

Øivind, Norway

 

Welcome. There are some norwegian competitors who built nice saigas a while back, so don't be too sure you can't own one.

[RED333 1,025]

I've been following this thread for a while and have got everything and have been replacing the shot with my Lee slugs. The one thing that's a pain in the butt is opening the crimp and getting the shot out. I got to thinking and a solution came to mind. I use to have a kinetic bullet puller that I used to pull bullets from bad reloads and the like. That made me think "why would'nt it work with a shot gun shell?" So while at the station I found an old piece of 3/4" galv water pipe with the ends sawn off. Well lets see if a shell fits in it, it does. Now lets plug the end with something and I did. Now lets hold a shell in the tube with some tape and give the pluged end a nice solid rap on a soild surface (the plugged end,not the shell end) I did and the shot came out. The straight piece of pipe works just fine but I was thinking when I get time I'll make one that more resembles a hammer made with a tee section with a handle and two pieces of pipe that holds the shell and shot. After the crimp is open it's a lot easier to expand it for the slug with what ever means you want to use.

MAN, that is a great idear!!!

[Squishy 1,149]

MAN, that is a great idear!!!

 

Yes it is, I've already scoped out some steel tube with .78125 ID. From my measurements I'm seeing that a shell is 25/32" in diameter maybe a tad more. I'm wondering how long the tube would need to be or what effect tube length would have on how this works.

 

I figured completely close the "strike" end of the tube with a cap welded on or something substantial to hold up to the pounding. Then thread the other end where the shell goes in and use a threaded cap to close it. Place a spring inside the cap to hold the shell tight. Once you strike the Whack-A-Shell^® and the contents are released, remove the cap, extract the shell and dump the shot.

[rickyblaze 8]

The pipe I used was 3/4" galvanized pipe but regular 3/4" steel pipe should work also. Should be readily available at your local hardware store. What I had invisioned for my 'kineti-dump' was using 2- 3/4x3" close nipples screwed into a 3/4" tee with a cap on each end. The cap on the shell end could have a hole drilled in the center exposing the primer and the other end just screwed tight. Then on the tee side use a 3/4"x 12" pipe for the handle,then you insert a shell on the shell end screw the cap down to keep the shell from bouncing up when you strike the shot end on a solid surface. Then unscrew the shell cap extract the empty shell and dump the shot. It's not the length of the pipe that the shell is in that matters it's the velocity of the shell when it contacts the solid surface.

I'll try to get one together and show you what I had in mind when I started using this method.

[Squishy 1,149]

That's Kineti-Dump^®

 

I have a couple of question about what you've outlined. You are talking about putting a cap on both ends of the pipe but you're only going to use one end to insert the shell and then remove the shell and dump the shot. Why not just seal the end you're not going to be opening? And why the hole in the cap on the "active" end?

 

I'm going to put one together as I actually need it. I wouldn't expect you to build me one. But at least as far as I know you'll always be the originator. I'd have never thought of this in a million years. I've got a couple of other more obvious ideas, things to make this whole substitution thing easier and quicker. I still think taking the center out of crimp and inserting a slug is not a bad idea.

 

Also, I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking about putting other size shot back in the shell. But as 00 buck is way cheaper than slugs the cost savings drops off considerably. 250 rounds of bulk birdshot at $6 for 25 is $60. To convert it to 00 might or might not cost any more depending on whether or not you save the birdshot and use lead from another source. You can get 250 round of Rio High Power 00 buck for around $110. That's still twice as much (roughly).

 

I'm thinking about getting a 0000 shot mold. 4 projectiles per ounce. And/or a .690 mold would be nice too.

 

The original purpose of this was to have a low cost alternative to "store bought" slugs but it's gone further than that.

[Marc 147]

I'm thinking about getting a 0000 shot mold. 4 projectiles per ounce.

 

This caught my interest in I was curious just how many 0000 pellets you could fit into a 12 ga. 2 3/4" shotshell so I went and cut open a Federal bulk birdshot shell and measured the shotcup.

 

I.D. = .695

Internal Height = .880

 

A 0000 pellet is .38 cal (.380 in diameter)

 

So, .695 - .380 = .315 of leftover space, which means, one pellet per layer. 3 layers of .380 diameter pellets is 1.140" minus pellet overlap that I figure is .380 - .315 = .065 per pellet. The top and bottom pellet overlap the middle pellet once each, and the middle pellet overlaps the top and bottom once at each end for a total of 4 "overlaps" so, .065 *4 = .260

 

1.140 - .260 = .880

 

Assuming you continue swapping the birdshot out of the walmart bulk packs without changing anything else what you will get is a 3/4 oz, 3 pellet load that probably won't perform very well.

 

But, now that your talking buckshot http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/BuckshotLoading3.pdf

[Marc 147]

Incidentally, I think 0000 buck will stack in layers of 3 in an 8 ga. shell...

[Squishy 1,149]

Well as a matter of fact I did some looking at different things after that last post. I unloaded a Federal 000 shell and a Rio 00 shell to compare. Actually what I was doing was seeing what might fit in the birdshot shell after a .690 ball is added. I dropped one in and noticed there was space left over so I thought a layer of some size shot might fit. But neither 000 or 00 would, or they would but you couldn't recrimp the shell.

 

So I took a look at the shell the 000 came from and dropped the .690 ball in it....lots of room to put something on top if you were so inclined.

 

What's the difference? Of course the size of the shot for one thing, big difference there. But because of the difference in the amount of space the load takes up given a similar weight what must be different is where the bottom of the cup or wad, whatever you want to call it sits height-wise in the shell. 1 oz of 000 will take up more space vertically in the shell than the same weight of birdshot.

 

Here's the conclusion I arrived at with regard to how a shell is "built" whether it's a commercial load or a home loader doing it. Knowledgeable, experienced viewers tell me if I'm wrong.

 

First you determine what size shot will work for your purposes. You wouldn't hunt quail with slugs and you wouldn't hunt hogs with birdshot. Then you decide what sort of and how much of a powder charge it will take to propel the payload to an acceptable velocity within a container the diameter of a 12 gauge shell at length of 2 3/4 or 3". What makes up the difference between the top of the powder charge and the bottom of the payload is the wad. A short dense payload like fine birdshot or a slug will have a taller wad and the bottom of the cup will be closer to the end of the shell. A payload that takes up more vertical space like larger buckshot, #1, 00 and 000 will have a shorter cup, or, the bottom of the cup will be closer to the bottom of the shell.

 

This means that if you wish to insert anything in a shell that was designed for birdshot the options are limited to shorter, more dense loads unless you replace the wad.

 

These are conclusions I've reached from observation. But, admittedly I don't know my ass from third base about all this stuff. I just wanted to post this to see if my logic is anywhere near correct.

 

And Barnett, thanks for going into such detail to show me that what I mentioned about possibly putting 0000 in one of the birdshot shells won't work as you said without changing anything. A slug, or some kind of smaller shot maybe #4, I don't know where the limits are. I have some #4, maybe I need to crack one of those open to see how many will fit.

 

Substituting payloads in birdshot shells has limitations.

 

Oh and thanks for the "Buckshot Loading" PDF, saved to the the reloading library.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Squishy

[oih 3]

I like the idea with the inertia hammer for dismantling shotgun shells. Works great on metallic cartridges. I am a bit concerned about the use of steel pipe; if the shell were to go off, you either risk shrapnel from the tube itself or from the rear of the shell itself. I suggest drilling a series of holes in the steel tubing, enough holes to vent the potential expanding gasses, but without compromising the integrity of the tube. To keep shot from falling throug the venting holes, I'd either cover the holes with electrical tape or if I was really anal, I'd cover it with some heavy duty schrink wrap. The tape or the shrinkwrap wil give in to even low pressures, but will keep the shot inside the container.

 

Frankford Arsenal, RCBS and those making the ones for metallic cartridges use some sort of polymer, and not only does it give in if the cartidge should go off, but it avoids sparks and such as well. Takes a serious spark to ignite modern smokeless powders, so that might just be a problem if you're dismantling black powder cartridges.

 

Could fashion the tube itself from Delrin, Delrin rods can be bought on ebay without blowing your budget, easier to work with, tools for woodworking will do, and it's not so hard on the suface you're hitting.

 

A quick way to make one might be by fashioning it from a tube t-section with proper dimensions, endcaps for both the beating end and the shell inserting end are available, the threading is allready there:

 

 

"Hammerhead":

 

 

Might be useful:

 

Might have to fill the handle tube with epoxy or something for rigidity, but it doesn't have to be able to hammer nails, bet it takes less effort with shotgun shells than metallic cartridges. A benefit of using brass is that it will not make sparks.

 

Improvised engineering is fun. Might have to go buy som cuplings today...

 

 

Øivind

 

And thanks again for the warm welcome.

Edited October 12, 2012 by oih

[Groovy Mike 36]

Using the pipe to facshion a 12 gauge version of the bullet puller is a good idea if you are disassembling shells. I'd make a hammer shapped version. No need to drill the pipe there is absolutely no way that using it properly will set off a primer. Just don't be dumb enough to bang teh base of teh shell on the floor!

 

Squishy - I don't know why your Remington game loads don't work - mine worked perfectly dumping the one ounce of #8 shot and swapping in the one ounce slug directly into the factory loaded wad.

[Marc 147]

I've read somewhere, I think it was a Chuck Hawks article, that commercial buckshot loads actually use undersized shot so as to gain enough space to add 1 - 2 more pellets in the shell. Like a Winchester 00 pellet might measure the equivalent of a 0.5 (aught and a half) or something.

 

So opening some buckshot loads you've got would give you false impressions as to what you can get into the birdshot shells with buckshot (bought or home cast) of the correct size.

 

Measure the diameter of your pulled buckshot and compare to a shot size chart to confirm correct size.

[Squishy 1,149]

Øivind, thanks for your input. Your English is better than a lot of Americans I know. Are you certain you can't own a Saiga where you are?

 

GMike, I've accepted the fact that some things that won't work for me will work perfectly for you. And that's ok.

 

But I can say with 100% certainty that a Lee 7/8 oz slug will not fit in a Remington Game Load 2 3/4 - 1290 FPS - 1 oz - 7 1/2 Shot (GL-127) shell. And a 1 oz should be no different as the 1 oz and 7/8 oz are the same diameter. Not only the vertical "ribs" inside the cup hinder the fit but it appears that diameter of the bottom of the cup is smaller than the base of the slug. Even outside the hull the slug will not seat in the cup. I would have thought the wads would be the same from 7 1/2 shot to 8 but maybe they're not. Or maybe something different is sold where you are, I don't know.

 

 

Barnett, point taken about the differences between commercial shot and home cast. I think I'm going to obtain a set of digital calipers, my "analog" ones aren't so precise.

 

Anyone comment on whether my conclusion about wad height is anywhere near correct?

Edited October 12, 2012 by Squishy

[Groovy Mike 36]

Just plain weird Squishy! I'll have to pull some apart and take pics.

Just to throw more weird out there - someone on another board mailed me the shot from 100 shells to swap for slugs. The box arrived perfectly taped and 100% empty. No stray pellets, no empty plastic bag that shot might have spilled out of, no note that teh sender said was included - absolutely 100% empty, and the box 100% intact. WEIRD!

[Squishy 1,149]

Just plain weird Squishy! I'll have to pull some apart and take pics.

Just to throw more weird out there - someone on another board mailed me the shot from 100 shells to swap for slugs. The box arrived perfectly taped and 100% empty. No stray pellets, no empty plastic bag that shot might have spilled out of, no note that teh sender said was included - absolutely 100% empty, and the box 100% intact. WEIRD!

 

We may have to open an X-File on this. It could have to do with your location, a vectoring of terrestrial magnetic forces in concert a buried piece of extra-terrestrial technology near your location. I have Mulder on speed dial, I'll get back to you.

[AJ Dual 43]

Good info there on the shot wad being slug incompatible.

 

The Federal multipurpose 100 round Value-packs has a much more rudimentary two-piece shot cup and wad, The cup is completely smooth with four petals. The bottom is a bit tight for the slug and it wants to spring back up a bit, but it can be pushed down in there okay.

 

The second part of the wad is just a straight cylindrical piston that kind of turns inside-out like a sock as it presses on the wad.

 

Also, for you guys cutting the ends off your bulk-pack shells to dump the shot, rather than picking open the crimp, or the new (genius!) kinetic hammer design pipes, because you'd rather do a roll crimp,,, a PVC pipe cutter might be just the thing to cleanly snip the crimp end of the shell off, rather than drilling or sawing each one.

 

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/pvc-pipe-tubing-cutter.jpg

[rickyblaze 8]

Kineti-Dump^® in it's infancy:

1-3/4"x10" black steel pipe (handle)

2-3/4" black caps

1-3/4"x3" nipple (shot end)

1-3/4"x3" brass nipple (shell end) the brass was closer to fitting the o.d. of the shell

1-3/4" brass cap (over the shell)

2-garden hose washers for the brass cap to keep shell from bouncing

 

Worked very well with one good solid hit to a solid surface. Be sure to tighten the shot end nipple and cap very securely

[Squishy 1,149]

AJ, thanks for the info on the Fed Multi Bulk, I assume it's similar if not the same as the Federal Game Load #8 shot shells which work fine for making birdslugs.

 

As for the pipe cutter, I'm wondering if it would deform the end of the shell too much...I guess it would bounce back into shape.

 

Ricky Blaze wastes no time in getting a working proto-type together, great job. And, unlike my overly complicated idea it requires no welding, made from parts readily available from the local hardware store.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Squishy

[rickyblaze 8]

Ricky Blaze wastes no time in getting a working proto-type together, great job. And, unlike my overly complicated idea it requires no welding, made from parts readily available from the local hardware store.

 

Thanks Squishy,I love to tinker with things and this just so happen to get my attention. Making the birdslugs is a great way to put together cheap ammo for some fun with the S12. Now that I have a cheaper slug ammo source I need to work on fine tuning the gas system on mine. Got three holer that needs a little lovin'

[Groovy Mike 36]

FYI, I have tried a hand held pipe cutter and it simply crushes the shell instead of cutting it. I don't know why since I bought it new an dpresumeably sharp, but I couldn't get it to work on shotgun shells.

[Squishy 1,149]

It's all good, just like with brainstorming there are no bad ideas. The good thing about this thread is that there are many people giving input, offering ideas and together we're solving problems. I don't want to get all corny or anything but this is what's happening.

 

Now, the thought occurs to me that since my theory about the space needed for the payload dictating the height or capacity of the wad appears to be not too far off, it would be a fairly simple thing to replace the wad to allow other loads like #4, 00, 000 etc. Yes, this adds time and expense to the process but, it seems it would still be a cost effective way to take the bulk shells and get something more versatile out of them. Of course extensive testing at distances beyond what my local 17 yard indoor range allows would be needed.

 

What criteria or process would need to be gone through to determine what wad would be most suitable for any given payload?

 

I'm on the verge of getting two molds from Sharp Shooter, one for .690 ball and another combo mold that casts 00 and #4.

 

Thoughts, ideas?

[gunfun 3,931]

I wouldn't bother with casting round ball for the following reasons:

• It is generally agreed that foster slugs or the shuttlecock style lyman slugs are significantly more accurate in smoothbores.
  
• Lee key slugs and the Lyman "sabot" (shuttlecock aka pellet) are intended to be drop-in for standard birdshot wads without extra hassle.
  
• Roundball loads almost always call for stacking in more components that add to to time and cost of loading, such as felt spacers and 20 gauge hardcard.
  

Conclusion, If you are going to spend the time, may as well load superior ammo. The cost is similar. Roundballs are cheaper to buy ready made by a lot, so for people who load but don't cast, they make some sense. People with fully rifled barrels choosing roundball or roundball/ shotcup combinations large enough to bite into the rifling don't lose as much accuracy with roundball, so this is often another reason why people shoot roundballs (aka pumpkin ball).

 

That said, someone here was nice enough to give me a few .690 RB with the extras needed and a starter recipe, and I will enjoy loading and shooting them. If I saw a really cheap deal on them, I'd go for that too.

[gunfun 3,931]

That sharp shooter mold looks decent pretty good, but I think I would rather have one of each than the combo.

 

I sure wouldn't want to be making buckshot one or two at a time. Only retired guys have time for that.

 

It seems to me that If I want to make double ought, I would want to make a bunch, and ditto for the #4B. Making both at once would force me to spend time sorting it. Worse, sorting incorrectly could lead to unsafe loads, by making an inadvertently or heavy load.. (although I think I would catch the difference at later stages.)

[Squishy 1,149]

The combo mold makes 10 shot at a time and there is nothing to sort, you only pour into one side of the mold, whichever one you want, if you want both you pour both sides.

 

[Marc 147]

Anyone comment on whether my conclusion about wad height is anywhere near correct?

 

Your conclusion reads right to me.

 

One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that the wad in a modern shot shell is only there to fill space that used to be occupied by the holy black powder. You could trim or omit the wad, leaving the gas seal intact and push the shot cup deeper into the shell to give yourself some more room in the top for a fourth 0000 pellet or whatever. It will be above the shot cup and not protected from rubbing the barrel when fired, however, the shot cup is a fairly recent improvement in shot shell technology whereas before they didn't use anything (or if they did, it was a paper wrapper). Shot cups to give you better, denser patterns with fewer strays and reduced leading but its not necessarily required if your goal is cheap blasting ammo.

 

Just don't go above the stated payload weight for the powder charge!

[Marc 147]

That's a neat buckshot mold! looks like a lot of manual sprue trimming though...

[Squishy 1,149]

So, if you wanted to put 00 buck shot into an emptied birdshot shell how would you pick out a replacement wad?

 

From the vids I've seen manual trimming still has to be done even with a Lee shot mold. The sprue plate cuts off the top of the top layer but there are two more layers underneath that tend to be connected to each other. I've seen a vid where a guy was cutting the layers apart with a razor knife. So I think you'll have to do some trimming with any multi-layer mold. There are straight sided trimmers available that make it go quickly it appears.

[gunfun 3,931]

The combo mold makes 10 shot at a time and there is nothing to sort, you only pour into one side of the mold, whichever one you want, if you want both you pour both sides.

 

 

Yeah, but one ounce of #4B is between 20 and 21 pellets, and most #4 B loads use 27. You have to do at least two pours for each shell, plus trimming sprues. If I wanted to bother with casting #4B at all, I would want to make it as fast as possible with the fewest interruptions. Therefore, I would rather have their standard 20 hole #4B only for that and cast as efficiently as I could manage. This makes buckshot that have sprue cuts on the side, so you would be casting for cost, not superior quality. By the time you have made the shot, trimmed them, counted them, and put them into the shell, you are probably well over a minute of work into just the shot for each shell. I think realistically, you are closer to 2 or 3 minutes. Add to that dumping the shot, or loading up from scratch and each shell takes 3 or 4 minutes to make. At 4 minutes that is 15 shells an hour. Assuming your birdshot cost $.23 each and you had no cost other than labor, and that commercial #4B cost about $.60 each that leaves a difference of $.37 per shell. You recouped $5.55/hr @ 4 minutes per shell.

 

Lets say you can do all that in 1.5 minutes, and we aren't including set up time,mistakes, or cost of tools: 40 per hour x savings of $.37each= $14.80 an hour. And this is a load that is not as good as the commercial load, because it has 7 less pellets and lower velocity.

 

You have to be able to do this fast for it to make economic sense. if cost is your motivating factor this only really works for someone who can't get more hours or is retired.

 

If you want higher quality ammo, you are going to be loading from scratch and using rounder hardened shot and probably buffer. Birdshot to buck substitutions don't really make sense for performance upgrades.

[Marc 147]

So, if you wanted to put 00 buck shot into an emptied birdshot shell how would you pick out a replacement wad?

 

If we're still talking the Federal bulk packs then I would just trim the existing wad (the pedestal looking thing under the shot cup that is part of the gas seal) until I got enough room to close the crimp on the payload of buckshot I wanted. I wouldn't replace it as that is an added expense.

[Squishy 1,149]

So, if you wanted to put 00 buck shot into an emptied birdshot shell how would you pick out a replacement wad?

 

If we're still talking the Federal bulk packs then I would just trim the existing wad (the pedestal looking thing under the shot cup that is part of the gas seal) until I got enough room to close the crimp on the payload of buckshot I wanted. I wouldn't replace it as that is an added expense.

 

The way the wad is made it can't really be trimmed. But 6 .33 00 shot will stack symmetrically in the cup. So I'm going to try this, maybe add some buffer. I see that chronographs are not that expensive and maybe I can borrow one and test the velocity. I'm sure some would disagree but I don't see a shell with 6 .33 size shot in it a waste of time or a worthless pursuit.

[Squishy 1,149]

Piddled around today seeing what would fit in the bird shells and how many.

 

Tried #4 Buck in a Federal Game Load shell - Originally 1oz #8 shot - 1290FPS

 

The shot would seat in a symmetrical pattern and would hold 17 - #4 shot at 1.34 grams = 22.78

grams = .8035 oz. Someone mentioned that commercial shot might be a tad smaller in diameter in an effort to get more in the shell. This shot from a Rio shell measured at least .24".

 

 

Tried some 00 Buck again from a Rio shell. Put it in a Winchester Universal shell - Originally 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot - 1200FPS. Again the shot seated symmetrically. 6 - 00 buck at 3.49 grams each = 20.94 grams = .7386 oz. This shot measures at least .33"

 

 

In both cases the shell re-crimped with no problem and once crimped the shot didn't rattle around. If I were going to do this in any quantity I'd add some buffer. In neither case did the shot level exceed the top of the cup.

 

Those favoring the cutting edge of high performance shells would yawn at all this but, with a casting setup, three molds and nothing but a few hundred or thousand rounds of cheap bird shot you could end up with slugs, mid size shot and 00 buck. Yeah, they're missing a few shot in each shell over a factory round but I still think they'd do some damage.