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this is an excellent topic. i've been wanting to do this "birdslug" experiment too for quite sometime now. birdshots are 2/3 less than the price of slugs and shotgun shells dont come cheap here in my country (about 57 cents as against 90 cents per shell).

 

birdshot to "OO" buck conversion sounds good too.

 

this thread has been very informative indeed. so much so, i ordered 1 oz. slug mold and a Lee load all 2 just to be able to recrimp my future birdslugs. cheers.

 

The money savings are undeniable. And like you I'd like to nail down putting buckshot in these birdshells but casting buckshot from what I've seen is more laborious and slower than slugs. Although many here buy buckshot it's pricey and shipping lead will only get more expensive over time. I'm going to obtain a Lee 00 mold and try my hand at it.

 

I don't know how available reloading supplies are in the PI but that's the learning curve I'm climbing now. With a LA2 you'll be able to do this too.

 

i am hoping my supply of lead wont run dry for quite some time. a live near a fishing community and people here make use of these small lead weights for their nets and stuff. i just dont know the "purity" of these lead weights and i haven't started using any of them yet.

 

 

I'm also wondering what's the downside of using imperfect/not-so-round buckshots. does it affect trajectory or accuracy or penetration? see i got my hands on these small oval-shaped lead weights approximately the size of buckshot but only oval. maybe i can just plop these things straight into the shot cup and never mind making OO buck from mold.

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a lee lead melter and mold are only 20 and 30 dollars each, i buy federal bulk pack for 20 and empty all the shot and cast into lee drive key 1 oz slugs! 100 slugs for $20 and a little labor! they sho

Lyman 525 slug hitting hard is an understatment. In the pic, the slugs on the left, top 3 are out of a sand bag. The middle left is a unfired slug. The 2 at the bottom left, are off a steel plate.

Kineti-Dump® in it's infancy: 1-3/4"x10" black steel pipe (handle) 2-3/4" black caps 1-3/4"x3" nipple (shot end) 1-3/4"x3" brass nipple (shell end) the brass was closer to fitting the o.d. of the

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out of round buckshot makes uneven patterns. Even if you want a wide spread, you want a wide evenly-distributed spread. Typically, higher quality shot is not a pure alloy. Instead, it has some antimony to make it harder and often plating for the same reason. This keeps it from deforming under firing forces, so that it flies true. Harder shot also doesn't flatten as much on impact, so it tends to penetrate deeper. Buffer is used to pad the shot from smashing each other.

 

Obviously, precision always costs more. MSRdriver pointed out that many factory loads, and field grade buck are often smaller than the stated size. I noticed that was true when I compared Hornady's hardened #4B to the much cheaper Remington Field Grade "#4B" The hornady were all perfectly round and smooth, and measured exactly .24". Rem Field grade have dents and flaws on many of them, and averaged out to about .234" I find that the slightly smaller Rem shot settles naturally into a nice stack by pouring, so this is preferable to me. Also, I can use at least one more pellet and still be within weight limits when using book data for birdshot.

 

 

Also, with stuff like the fishing weights you can't just rely on counting a certain number of pellets to acheive a certain mass, due to variances. In order to maintain safe pressures you would have to weigh every load. You should also keep an eye out for rotten leadline- rope with a lead core used for holding down the bottom side of nets. I am personally bemoaning how much of that I could have kept from my commercial fishing days. Some of it has very soft lead, and some of it is quite hard.

 

I'd recommend melting those into slugs and weighing your samples to see how close the weights are to pure lead. Alloys tend to be a little lighter, but generally within load safe data. One other consideration is that pure soft lead can swage through constrictions easier than harder alloys, so some designs of slugs need to be pure lead. This is generally considered to be important if you are running solid cross section full bore lead slugs through a rifled barrel. Most of us here are using loads designed around standard shotcups that are smaller than bore, and smooth barrels so alloys like wheel weights, etc. Alloy variations probably don't matter all that much, for most of us.

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I'm also wondering what's the downside of using imperfect/not-so-round buckshots. does it affect trajectory or accuracy or penetration? see i got my hands on these small oval-shaped lead weights approximately the size of buckshot but only oval. maybe i can just plop these things straight into the shot cup and never mind making OO buck from mold.

 

Before you melt them up, try a handful of shells loaded with them on the patterning board. They might work just fine for a given distance - say home defense ranges as compared to 50 yard fly by shooting.....

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You can compensate somewhat for buckshot made from an unknown or too soft alloy softness with buffer materials you fill the shot cup with. It supports the shot and keeps it from compressing/deforming while firing, and then disperses quickly leaving just the shot flying in the air.

 

Usually it's plastic powder or tiny beads. I know reloaders also use Cream of Wheat cereal Farina, although it has a chance of swelling, or gluing together if left for long periods of time (years), or exposed to moisture before it's fired.

 

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/BP-Original-Design-Buffer-500cc/productinfo/BUFFER/

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Novelty cartridge companies often call duplex loads "jungle shot" or similar. I've considered making some for my cousin's serbu shorty for snake/ cougar / coyote/ black bear country, so that 1 shell would be good for all 3.

 

I decided though that if a snake is close enough to be a threat, you don't want heavy pellets to bounce back at you or others in your hiking party. Thus, I've made him some 10z higer velocity #4B loads. He can carry it with birdshot in the chamber, 2 buckshot shells and a potent slug in the tube. so the first shot will deal with the snakes, and if anything bigger is a threat, he can just aim at it and fire away until the thing stops coming.

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What's Linotype lead worth per pound? There's a local Craig's List ad selling it for $2 per pound which is higher than "regular" lead. I'm guessing it's better for rifle or pistol bullets...is it worth the extra price for slugs?

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What's Linotype lead worth per pound? There's a local Craig's List ad selling it for $2 per pound which is higher than "regular" lead. I'm guessing it's better for rifle or pistol bullets...is it worth the extra price for slugs?

No good for slugs, way to hard, you want a as soft a lead as you can get, pure is best.

Boolit casters use a small bit of "type" lead in there lead mix to get a harder boolit.

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http://forum.saiga-1...hi-shotcup-fit/

 

I thought this might help out.

 

It looks like for the Lee slug, the cheap clean way to load is with Either Winchester WAA 7/8 oz silver wads in AA hulls, as well as the STS. For straight hulls like the Federal and Remington bulk pack , and Gold Medal hulls, the Federal 12SO 7/8 oz wad is the way to go. Claybuster clones don't let the slug seat nicely in any of the wads I have tried. They do fine for Buckshot though, and are cheaper.

Edited by GunFun
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What's Linotype lead worth per pound? There's a local Craig's List ad selling it for $2 per pound which is higher than "regular" lead. I'm guessing it's better for rifle or pistol bullets...is it worth the extra price for slugs?

No good for slugs, way to hard, you want a as soft a lead as you can get, pure is best.

Boolit casters use a small bit of "type" lead in there lead mix to get a harder boolit.

 

If you're doing the Lee 1oz mold or 7/8th oz mold, they're designed to ride in many shotcups as GunFun notes. And if you're shooting the slugs in a cylinder bore, or a Saiga 12 with at least a polychoke dialed out to cylinder, it doesn't matter at all. The slug will never contact anything in the bore.

 

However, as noted, linotype is much harder, (makes sense, it has to be, when used as type/printing plates, if it squished in the press and deformed, it wouldn't be of any use...) and it's what rifle and pistol shooters who cast often want as an additive to harden the alloy to prevent excess leading of their bores. Or to make bullets that can withstand higher velocities and spin/twist rates without disintegrating in flight. Hard Linotype slugs that will be fired in a cylinder bore that rides in a cup aren't a problem, but it is a waste of money. Just like the trap shooters who've been pleading with us to trade our 7.5 and 8 shot for their scrap lead, even offering trades of 1 to 1.5, maybe even 2 to 1, instead of us melting it. If you score some Linotype, it would make for good trade material with other shooters for softer scrap lead, possibly at greater than 1:1 by weight as well.

 

I don't know what a good price for Linotype is, but I'd say that I don't think I'd pay much more than $.80/lb for reasonably clean scrap lead. I'd pay less for range lead that's got dirt and bullet jackets in it, or wheel weights with their metal clips, especially if there's zinc weights mixed in I'd have to sort out. Zinc, if it does get in and alloys with the lead, will ruin your lead perhaps permanently. Some claim you can separate a lead/zinc alloy with very careful and repetitive re-melting, and fluxing over and over to separate it out. But if it's an alloy, where there's electron sharing between the two different metals, I'm not so sure that's true.

 

If you don't know for sure what a slug will be fired in and especially if they're full shotgun bore diameter, and riding a wad, and not in a cup, then pure soft lead is safest and what you want, because commercial lead slugs are designed to pass an IC Improved Cylinder and M Modified chokes without damaging the gun.

 

If you know you're making Saiga blasting/plinking slugs that will only ride in a wad cup in a shotgun with no choke, than any alloy is fine, as long as it's cheap, and it pours and casts nicely. Now that I'm saving all the #8 shot from my Fed bulk pack for trade, I've been using range lead scavanged off the ground from my gun club. As long as it pours well, it's good to go for my Saiga. And that's one reason I started my casting with slugs, because within reason, I didn't have to worry about precise alloy ratios or hardness testing. That, and slugs are expensive of course. smile.png

Edited by AJ Dual
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Thanks to Gunfun, msdriver and AJ Dual for the info. And I guess it's safe to say that given pricing of $2 per pound the Linotype isn't worth it for my purposes.

 

With regard to cup/card combinations for the Lee 7/8oz slug I found that a Winchester WAA12SL with a Ballistic Products Mini Nitro Card (#N720 - 0.070") is a good combination. The top of the slug ends up being a tad below the top of the top of the wad.

 

post-41803-0-40597200-1354976317.jpg

Edited by Squishy
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  • 2 weeks later...

Nothing that informative, but here's some pics...

 

I went out early one morning and picked up some range lead at my club. I netted about 20lbs with 40 minutes of work.

 

rangelead_zps088d0ac3.jpg

 

After separating out dirt, gravel, copper and brass jackets, I got about 17lbs of actual lead, and put it into ingots in an old muffin tin pan.

 

2012-12-10_19-20-34_845.jpg

 

Last night, I cast 200 1oz Lee slugs from that lead for a range outing this coming weekend. There's about 2-3lbs of lead left in my Lee melter. (You normally never want to let the lead all out, or down to the dross/crust, unless you're trying to clean the cup out.)

 

2012-12-20_23-50-40_870.jpg

 

The new name for my "birdslugs" around the house is becoming "Cheese Balls". bad_smile.gif

 

And I now have 20 lbs of #8 shot that I've set aside for trade for more scrap lead with someone who reloads for trap shooting.

 

One thing I've noticed is my Lee slug mold is possibly on it's last legs after only about 1000 slugs over the past year. The center pin that makes the cross-bar and the hollow base has been falling out of the steel tab that holds it. I've repaired it a few times by working the little post back into the hole for the steel tab that holds it, Closing the mold tightly, then peening the aluminum wider than the hole with a hammer, then using an automatic spring-loaded center punch to spread the metal even further.

 

One thing I STRONGLY recommend is if you've got a slug stuck on the center pin of your Lee mold, and it won't come off easily with a few taps of the main bolt on the mold's hinge, that you MELT the slug off the center pin over your melt pot. DO NOT pull with pliers, pry with a screwdriver, or try to tap the slug directly off the center pin. The little aluminum stub that holds the center mold pin in it's steel tab is very weak, and will wear out and the whole pin will fall out of the mold.

 

The main reason the slug will stick to the center pin is probably that the mold hasn't gotten hot enough yet, if you use something like a Benz-o-Matic propane torch to melt the slug off the center pin back into the melt pot, it'll take the stuck slug off the center pin without any impact or stress. And using this method also has the added benefit of getting the center pin a bit hotter so the next slug is likely to drop free without fuss.

Edited by AJ Dual
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Great job AJ, thanks for the post. I want to ask, how are you able to gather the range lead, I mean the range has to be cold of course, do you just do it when no one is around?

 

benelli, thanks for mentioning the fume trap, it seems this might be the ticket when there isn't a good place out doors to do casting. I'd thought about rigging something with a dryer exhaust hose or something but with this thing it's design appears to filter the fumes so exhausting to the outside wouldn't be necessary.

 

And at $50 it's not price prohibitive.

 

post-41803-0-25174500-1356112446.jpg

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Nothing that informative, but here's some pics...

 

I went out early one morning and picked up some range lead at my club. I netted about 20lbs with 40 minutes of work.

 

rangelead_zps088d0ac3.jpg

 

After separating out dirt, gravel, copper and brass jackets, I got about 17lbs of actual lead, and put it into ingots in an old muffin tin pan.

 

2012-12-10_19-20-34_845.jpg

 

Last night, I cast 200 1oz Lee slugs from that lead for a range outing this coming weekend. There's about 2-3lbs of lead left in my Lee melter. (You normally never want to let the lead all out, or down to the dross/crust, unless you're trying to clean the cup out.)

 

2012-12-20_23-50-40_870.jpg

 

The new name for my "birdslugs" around the house is becoming "Cheese Balls". bad_smile.gif

 

And I now have 20 lbs of #8 shot that I've set aside for trade for more scrap lead with someone who reloads for trap shooting.

 

One thing I've noticed is my Lee slug mold is possibly on it's last legs after only about 1000 slugs over the past year. The center pin that makes the cross-bar and the hollow base has been falling out of the steel tab that holds it. I've repaired it a few times by working the little post back into the hole for the steel tab that holds it, Closing the mold tightly, then peening the aluminum wider than the hole with a hammer, then using an automatic spring-loaded center punch to spread the metal even further.

 

One thing I STRONGLY recommend is if you've got a slug stuck on the center pin of your Lee mold, and it won't come off easily with a few taps of the main bolt on the mold's hinge, that you MELT the slug off the center pin over your melt pot. DO NOT pull with pliers, pry with a screwdriver, or try to tap the slug directly off the center pin. The little aluminum stub that holds the center mold pin in it's steel tab is very weak, and will wear out and the whole pin will fall out of the mold.

 

The main reason the slug will stick to the center pin is probably that the mold hasn't gotten hot enough yet, if you use something like a Benz-o-Matic propane torch to melt the slug off the center pin back into the melt pot, it'll take the stuck slug off the center pin without any impact or stress. And using this method also has the added benefit of getting the center pin a bit hotter so the next slug is likely to drop free without fuss.

 

Could you drill and tap the center pin for a Key-sert or a Heli-coil and use a 10-32 machine screw to hold the center pin to the metal tab?

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Great job AJ, thanks for the post. I want to ask, how are you able to gather the range lead, I mean the range has to be cold of course, do you just do it when no one is around?

 

 

Yes. My club is pretty "suburb locked" these days, and we shoot from 10am to local sunset. So I just go in at 9am and pick at the backstop berms. I don't dig into them beyond an inch or two so I'm not disturbing them or eroding them. I just do the short range 15-25 yard pistol berms because the farther rifle berms, most all of the bullets are traveling too fast and disintegrate, or bury themselves too deeply. The larger diameter and slower pistol bullets don't go as deep and continued shooting and rain etc. will turn them up. If the club's popular, they're just everywhere. Also, if there's any steel plate backstop around, there's usually a line of lead flake underneath that you can scrape up too.

 

You just sort of get an eye for what's a bullet, and what's dirt/gravel/junk after a little while.

 

I take it home in the bucket and I wash it. Shake it around so it rubs against itself and the dirt/mud/dust comes loose, dump the dirty water out, repeat until it's mostly clear. Then you want to let the lead dry. NEVER throw washed lead into a hot molten pot. The steam explosion blasting hot lead everywhere will not be fun. And could possibly maim you for life. If the moisture is really trapped, it's like a firecracker or a popcorn kernel going off at the bottom of your melting pot.

 

You want to let the lead dry for a day or more, and then start the lead out in a COLD pot so any remaining trapped moisture is coming out at 200 degrees when the lead is still hard while your pot warms up, and not at 600 degrees or more when the lead is molten.

 

Then all the copper jackets, any remaining junk and crud or oxide will float to the top. Skim it off with your casting ladle. I use a stainless steel tablespoon. I drilled a bunch of 1/32" holes in mine so the good lead can drip out, and the flaky crud or copper bullet jackets stays in the spoon to be dumped out. If you smoke the spoon with carbon black from a candle or a Bic lighter flame, the lead won't stick to the spoon at all.

 

One thing to watch for is FMJ bullets that are 100% jacketed, even on the base, so the lead can't escape. Many of the bullets will break open on impact with the berm, or as they hit old bullets already in the berm or gravel in the dirt. However, some will be almost pristine, and before they go in the pot, you want to smash them with a hammer on a hard surface to crack/stretch open the copper jacket so the lead can drip out as it's melting. If you find one you missed in the pot, pull it out, set it aside and let it cool. Don't be tempted to smash it while it's hot. The copper is still hard, but the lead inside is molten. Pop... that would be bad.

 

When picking up the bullets, you'll sometimes find many of the same kind from someone's shooting session. If you're lucky, you'll find a spot where someone who is a good shot was shooting lead-cast .45ACP's. They'll all be in one spot, and a nice 200-300 grains for every one you find. And being big, fat, and slow, not always flattened out or blown apart. I suppose the only thing better than that would be the folks who find these big 700gr slugs we're throwing back into the berms...

 

As you stir and scrape the melt pot, anything that's not lead will/should float to the top. If it's heavier than lead... get your Geiger counter out... Or it's Tungsten, Platinum, or Gold... Kind of unlikely to find those in a gun range's berms. unsure.png

 

Once the pot is full, I use sawdust to flux it the first time, stirring it in and it'll smoke, until just carbon ash is on the top. Then after it's scraped up, I do it a second time with a pea sized chunk of candle wax, stirring it in, and being watchful for when the wax fumes combust.

 

What I'm using for ingot molds right now are some old muffin pans that were getting too beat up and rusty. One word of advice, new muffin pans usually have polyester or teflon coatings for the non-stick properties. Old muffin pans have lots of rust, and hard polymerized sugar and grease on them. Either way, I recommend taking the pan outside, and burning it cherry red on the inside of the cups with a propane torch to burn these things off. Otherwise, the hot lead when you cast an ingot will do it, and with nowhere for the burning plastic or old oven grunge to go, that ingot will stick... badly. Ask me how I know...

 

If you burn the cups clean, the ingots will fall right out.

 

The downside to using a muffin pan for your ingots is that the ingots are almost too big for most 10lb electric pots. Especially if there's not already some lead in there high enough to contact the ingot and start it melting. The spout rod etc. gets in the way and it takes a long time to melt. If you can find one, a mini-muffin pan is better, or if you can find a "cornbread finger" pan, that actually has skinny corncob shapes in it, about the size of a big finger, the "corncob" ingots you'll make will slip into your melting pot much easier.

 

Could you drill and tap the center pin for a Key-sert or a Heli-coil and use a 10-32 machine screw to hold the center pin to the metal tab?

 

Hmm... that's iffy. There's just not that much meat there in the aluminum center pin for the Lee slug mold. And further, it seems to be a pretty soft aluminum alloy they're using too. So I don't know that you're really saving anything by moving the steel up into the pin, rather than the tab on the mold arms that holds it. I think it would just fail there too.

 

I just worked the little post of aluminum that holds the pin back into the steel flange, then I carefully closed the mold so the center pin was properly aligned in the left and right mold halves. I poured some lead in so everything inside would be as supported as possible. Knocked off the sprue the usual way then pushed the sprue plate back into place. I let the mold cool so the lead inside would be as hard as possible. Then keeping the mold closed with the lead slug inside it, I turned it upside down, and rested the steel sprue plate on the little anvil flat space of my bench vise. I took a hammer and carefully pounded the steel flange down further onto the aluminum pin, then peened the bit of the aluminum sticking up through the hole out. Then to further secure it, I used a spring loaded automatic center-punch pen ($2 Harbor Freight...) to put a dimple in the center and spread the aluminum a bit wider for more "grab" into the steel flange's hole.

 

Then I opened the mold, and just turned it upside down over my melt pot, and melted the slug off the center pin with a propane torch.

 

The Lee instructions are very clear to ONLY tap the large hinge bolt with your tapping rod or hardwood dowel when casting to get a slug to release. However, I don't think they really say what to do if you've got a slug stuck on the center pin/key really tight. Now that I've learned how much damage trying to tap stuck slugs directly off the pin, or pulling them off with pliers does to that pin, I'll only ever melt them off with the propane torch, and hopefully it'll never fail again.

 

However, the mold is only what? $20, so if it's totally FUBAR, not too much out of pocket, and I bet Lee would fix it for you for a few dollars, or for free if you sent it in. I think they offer a service of honing those fine lines in the mold halves that let the air escape if they get worn. So they probably see abused molds all the time.

 

However, if you're like me, you're casting up a bunch of slugs for a range day just 24-48 hours in advance, and you can't wait for Lee to fix it.

Edited by AJ Dual
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If anyone reading this has never cast or worked with molten lead and you're considering getting into it, if you pay no attention to anything else in this thread pay attention to this;

 

"Then you want to let the lead dry. NEVER throw washed lead into a hot molten pot. The steam explosion blasting hot lead everywhere will not be fun. And could possibly maim you for life. If the moisture is really trapped, it's like a firecracker or a popcorn kernel going off at the bottom of your melting pot."

 

And don't assume because you didn't just wash it that there's no moisture. Pay attention to things like old fishing weights etc. There can be moisture present where you wouldn't guess it would be. It's an energetic reaction that happens fast and once it get's on your skin no matter how fast you brush it off it's too late, you done and got burnt....ask me how I know. When I put a piece of lead into the pot, I'm standing and as I let it slide in I step back and wait a few seconds.

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  • 5 months later...

Finally able to cast som Lyman Sabots, no photos, but I did modify my Lee 10Ib'r:

 

I wanted to cast Lyman Sabots, and the moldLEE10IbPotMod00_zps9e2ba456.jpg would't fit under the spout:

 

 

A friendly neighbour gave me 15cm of50x50mm stainless tubing:

LEE10IbPotMod01_zps84041df7.jpg

 

Bottomplate is secured by 4 screws:

LEE10IbPotMod02_zps8ce0eeaa.jpg

 

The screws aren't all the same, they differ in length and thread, so be sure to put them in the right hole on reassembly, easy to ruin the threads on aluminum. 2 of them have slottet heads:

LEE10IbPotMod04_zps9697371e.jpg

 

Used the bottomplate as a template, and marked 4 holes (Actually, I marked 8 holes as I needed to attach the 50x50mm to both the bottomplate and the pot holder column.):

LEE10IbPotMod05_zps7b6ad921.jpg

 

Center punched the holes:

LEE10IbPotMod06_zps68f053fe.jpg

 

Drilled 4mm holes for the side that I attached to the column, and 6mm holes on the side that I atteched to the bottom plate. The reason for this is that then I was able to stick a small screwdriver through the 6mm hole and tighten the screws that hold the column. How did I do the screws that weren't slotted? I took a socket that fit (5mm/6mm don't really remember), and hammered a lead bullet into the place where the handle usually goes. Then made a deep slot in the lead. I placed the lose socket on the bolthead, and stuck the small screwdriver throunght the 6mm hole and into the lead in the socket. Thus being able to tighten the screws that weren't slottet as well (If I can't punch the lead back out again, I guess i can melt it out without ruining the socket.):

LEE10IbPotMod07_zpsf757b31f.jpg

 

Attached the bottomplate with M4x16mm cross slotted screws, washer, star washer and nut (Didn't want to deal with nylocks as it might get hot.), feels about as rugged as it was:

LEE10IbPotMod09_zps3ff528de.jpg

 

Materials used:

15cm of 50x50mm stainless square tubing (Stainless is overkill, and aluminum or carbonsteel would have been just fine.).
4 M4 screws with washer, star washer and nut (Found them in a bin at work, we toss a lot of damaged equipment, screws are usually ok though icon_wink.gif).

Tools:
- Drillpress (Chinese 50$ unit with the chuck from h...).
- Drillbits (Ruined quiet a few, will address that later.).
- Springloaded center punch.
- Screwdriver.
- Small socket for the LEE screws/bolts.

Anything I would do different?
- Lower the rpm on the drillpress, then my bits might last longer, and the holes might look better.
- Place the holes a bit better; hard to tighten screws that are very close to the inner wall of the 50x50mm, especially those without a slotted head.

Still it works, it looks ok and, cost only time and a few drillbits, and as an on and off (More off, really.) caster I have a working pot that suits my needs. I'm pleased with the result.

Øivind

Edited by oih
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I haven't done any testing beyond 25 yards. And I only have the stock bead and buckhorn sights with it's short radius etc. I've got a PK-A on order and when it comes I intend to see what my "birdslugs" will do at 100 yards.

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