Slugs For Cheap

[filthygovemploye 64]

oih, care to send me some of those? i have lee 1 oz keys and 1 ish oz lee 690 round balls...

[oih 3]

oih, care to send me some of those? i have lee 1 oz keys and 1 ish oz lee 690 round balls...

If we lived on the same continent, but sending lead across the atlantic is expensive. Sorry.

[Squishy 1,149]

Well I finally got around to putting my own Kineti-Dump^®together today. I put the Bird Slugs on the back burner for a while but now that Saiga-12 #2 is finished I want to run it at the range where I work which only allows slugs. Going back to be beginning this was the reason in the first place for making cheap slugs. A lot has happened since this thread started and while slugs are still available the best pricing I've seen is still around $1 each. And I'd have a hard time spending that much for something to shoot at paper with even if I had the money.

 

Went to Home Depot and picked out 1-10"x3/4", 2-3"x3/4" nipples, three 3/4" caps and a 3/4" tee. Screwed it all together and went to work. Also I found some thick 1" round felt pads for using under furnature to stuff in the cap that covers the nipple end where the shell goes. I stuffed two of them in the cap secured (hopefully) by Super Glue.

 

Ended up evacuating 100 shells mostly Federal "Multi-Purpose Load" - 1 1/8oz - 7 1/2 - 3 Dram Eq. It took 2-3 good whacks to open the crimp up enough to have the shot fall out into the KD. I happened to have a 60lb bar of lead so I used it to beat on. I'd think a piece of thick wood would work too. Something like concrete not so much, would likely fragment. Now all I have to do is open the hulls up some more, slip in the 7/8oz Lee slug and close the crimp.

 

 

[Deadeye 325]

good Idea on the dump hammer. I just hate to see people wasteing good shot when any lead can be made into slugs. If I had A slug mold I would trade for the shot. It cost 50 bucks a bag for shot. I don't have a shot maker I will be getting a slug mold soon I think.

[unclejake 428]

Watched Eric and Barry from Moss Pawn use the good old wax poured over bird shot, seemed to work pretty well. Don't know how the range would feel though.

[Squishy 1,149]

Watched Eric and Barry from Moss Pawn use the good old wax poured over bird shot, seemed to work pretty well. Don't know how the range would feel though.

 

Nah, wouldn't work. It has to do with the trap (they say). Actually 00 buck is larger than 22LR and others so it doesn't make sense but they can't be convinced, I tried.

 

I haven't melted any of the shot....yet. I'm open to trading for slugs.

 

If I were in the country where I ought to be it wouldn't be an issue.

[unclejake 428]

 

Watched Eric and Barry from Moss Pawn use the good old wax poured over bird shot, seemed to work pretty well. Don't know how the range would feel though.

 

Nah, wouldn't work. It has to do with the trap (they say). Actually 00 buck is larger than 22LR and others so it doesn't make sense but they can't be convinced, I tried.

 

I haven't melted any of the shot....yet. I'm open to trading for slugs.

 

If I were in the country where I ought to be it wouldn't be an issue.

 

I wouldn't know how to act if I were restricted on my shooting. I do hate it for ya!

[Squishy 1,149]

Done and done. 100 Bird Slugs ready to go down range. $25 for the bulk shells, roughly 5.5lbs of lead @ $2 per pound another $11 so roughly $36 plus my time which I have way more of than money these days. Oh, and I've got 7lbs of bird shot left over.

[gunfun 3,931]

go to recycling centers. $2lb is high even for ebay. You ought to be able to get pure or close enough for less than $0.75/lb. I buy it from the local scrap yard for $.0.60 /lb. Dental foils are very pure and will make good slugs.

[Squishy 1,149]

I was being liberal in my estimate of lead cost. The bar I used to beat on with the kinetic hammer weighs 60lbs and I still have wheel weights and ingots I got off eBay so I'll be set for a while. The hammer is so much better/quicker than any other method I've tried for getting the birdshot out of the shells and there is 0 deformation of the hull something I had before that caused FTFs.

[Squishy 1,149]

So is my assumption that by reducing the weight of the payload, i.e. substituting a 7/8oz slug for the 1 1/8oz of shot the shell was designed for reduces pressure in the barrel when fired? Also a load of smaller shot will expand creating even more pressure the weight of the load not withstanding?

[corbin 621]

I'm ready to buy either the Lee 1 oz mold or the 7/8 one. I'm wanting to open up federal bulk birdshot, melt the lead down, then replace the shot with the slug. Which size fits better?

[Squishy 1,149]

I'm ready to buy either the Lee 1 oz mold or the 7/8 one. I'm wanting to open up federal bulk birdshot, melt the lead down, then replace the shot with the slug. Which size fits better?

 

I have a 1oz mold but I haven't used it yet, most likely will when I run out of 7/8oz slugs. The 7/8oz slugs fit with room to spare so I think the 1oz size shouldn't be a problem. For shooting at paper indoors the lighter slug works fine and when casting hundreds at a time the lead savings add up.

[gunfun 3,931]

I'm ready to buy either the Lee 1 oz mold or the 7/8 one. I'm wanting to open up federal bulk birdshot, melt the lead down, then replace the shot with the slug. Which size fits better?

 

Either size fits. 7/8 is reputedly more accurate due to weight locaiton and taper. Weight to velocity also tends toward lower recoil and flatter trajectory. Is your goal a powerful plinker, or a lead freight train?

I think 7/8 oz is about 1/16" shorter than 1oz. 1oz slug tends to fit perfectly in most wads designed for 7/8 oz of shot.

[Deadeye 325]

just ordered the lee 1 oz mold tonight. 26 bucks shipped isn't a bad price.

[Squishy 1,149]

So is my assumption that by reducing the weight of the payload, i.e. substituting a 7/8oz slug for the 1 1/8oz of shot the shell was designed for reduces pressure in the barrel when fired? Also a load of smaller shot will expand creating even more pressure the weight of the load not withstanding?

 

Anyone got an opinion about this?

[gunfun 3,931]

Opinion not needed. that is pretty much fact. Reducing payload reduces pressure, but not necessarily on a linear or predictable curve basis. Putting one oz in a recipe for 1 1/8 seems to be OK though. for 7/8 oz, you might look to higher velocity 1 oz load data.

 

 

There is some danger in reducing too much, as there might not be enough pressure to guarantee reliable ignition that will push the payload out the barrel every time.

[Squishy 1,149]

Thanks GF.

[AJ Dual 43]

Opinion not needed. that is pretty much fact. Reducing payload reduces pressure, but not necessarily on a linear or predictable curve basis. Putting one oz in a recipe for 1 1/8 seems to be OK though. for 7/8 oz, you might look to higher velocity 1 oz load data.

 

 

There is some danger in reducing too much, as there might not be enough pressure to guarantee reliable ignition that will push the payload out the barrel every time.

 

Solid slugs also reduce pressure over a shot load because the shot load tends to squeeze and grow sideways under it's own inertia as the gunpowder gasses begins to move it. This tends to grab and obdurate the bore more, and raises pressures as well. Although the larger the shot the less this happens.

 

A solid slug won't do it at all, and it resists the pressure behind it less.

[glennhmd 23]

Done and done. 100 Bird Slugs ready to go down range. $25 for the bulk shells, roughly 5.5lbs of lead @ $2 per pound another $11 so roughly $36 plus my time which I have way more of than money these days. Oh, and I've got 7lbs of bird shot left over.

 

 

so how did your range trip go with the new "birdslugs"? how's the accuracy (relatively as slugs go). i haven't gotten into doing mine. got a little busy busy lately.

[Squishy 1,149]

so how did your range trip go with the new "birdslugs"? how's the accuracy (relatively as slugs go). i haven't gotten into doing mine. got a little busy busy lately.

 

The slugs performed well, as expected. At indoor range distances they are accurate but I need to do some testing outdoors.

[psl sniper 963]

Well I finally got around to putting my own Kineti-Dump^®together today. I put the Bird Slugs on the back burner for a while but now that Saiga-12 #2 is finished I want to run it at the range where I work which only allows slugs. Going back to be beginning this was the reason in the first place for making cheap slugs. A lot has happened since this thread started and while slugs are still available the best pricing I've seen is still around $1 each. And I'd have a hard time spending that much for something to shoot at paper with even if I had the money.

 

Went to Home Depot and picked out 1-10"x3/4", 2-3"x3/4" nipples, three 3/4" caps and a 3/4" tee. Screwed it all together and went to work. Also I found some thick 1" round felt pads for using under furnature to stuff in the cap that covers the nipple end where the shell goes. I stuffed two of them in the cap secured (hopefully) by Super Glue.

 

Ended up evacuating 100 shells mostly Federal "Multi-Purpose Load" - 1 1/8oz - 7 1/2 - 3 Dram Eq. It took 2-3 good whacks to open the crimp up enough to have the shot fall out into the KD. I happened to have a 60lb bar of lead so I used it to beat on. I'd think a piece of thick wood would work too. Something like concrete not so much, would likely fragment. Now all I have to do is open the hulls up some more, slip in the 7/8oz Lee slug and close the crimp.

 

DSC_7486.JPG

 

DSC_7488.JPG

Jeeze, and all this time id just been using an old pair of needle nose pliars. of course i dont really mod as many shells anymore since i started rolling my own. but still very cool idea!

[AJ Dual 43]

I got the PK-A red-dot on my Saiga out at the range last week so I could take a stab at some actual groups and see what I'd get. The spread seems to be about 4-5" from my 1oz Lee birdslugs at 25yards. These were re-stuffed into virgin Federal bulk pack #8 hulls powder and wads from my original round of converted shells. I didn't really try super hard with my Caldwell rest, just the sandbags my club provides, but any other long-gun I shoot at 25 yards from a rest is practically one-hole, so I can tell I'm getting some extreme spread here. It's not me.

 

I'm not very surprised. Seating depth of the slugs in the wads is inconsistent, I've been too lazy to use a cardboard wad/riser card to fill the gaps for a more consistent depth like some in this thread have. And even if I pushed them all down, the slight taper of the Lee slug and that of the shot-cup probably makes the slug ride up a few millimeters under jostling/handling towards the front crimp of the shell anyway.

 

I think the problem is mainly the cheap two-piece Federal bulk-pack wads, it has a very thin cup, and then the plug and cylindrical spacer post that sits above the powder. For the first time, since I wasn't just shooting these for fun and to turn "money into noise", I picked some of the wads/cups up from the ground between the firing line and the target stands. They're always half-cut through on one edge and not the other, and the cylinder plug pieces don't really seem to petal out or bend or crush in any sort of a consistent manner either. I also noticed that the bottom of the shot cup is driven somewhat into the drive-key bar that bisects the middle of the slug.

 

 

As you can see here, the wad is seriously bent to one side. Not that they're ever in "good shape" after being fired, but it's got a definite lean to it.

 

Here you can see how the bottom of the Fed. Bulk shot cup gets cut and blown open along the line of the bar of lead that makes up the Lee drive-key.

 

 

And here's the damage from the inside.

 

Some other issues:

Since these are smoothbore drag-stabilized Foster-style slugs, 25 yards may not really allow them to "settle in". So I'll try my luck at 100 yards next time to see if they do any better, or don't actually spread 4x more at 4x the distance. At least none of them were keyholing or tumbling.

 

These Lee slugs are seriously undersized to be load-able in a wide range of wad-types, and to be safe with a reasonable amount of choke. I was shooting these with my Polychoke flash-hider dialed to "Cylinder/Slug". I think I'll crank it down to IC/Improved Cylinder next time to see if that maybe strips the shot cup & wad off the slug a bit quicker and maybe improving accuracy as well.

I'm not upset if the groups don't get any better, this was always just cheap plinking/blasting ammo anyway. And my reloads will be using a more substantial one-piece shot cup & wad. Now that I've got a supply of a few thousand once-fired Federal bulk hulls built up, I wont be converting bulk-pack anymore.

[glennhmd 23]

Finally, some Lyman Sabot slugs:

 

this is one mean-looking MFer. so how does this thing shoot? compared to Lee 1oz. slugs any advantage of one over the other.

[Deadeye 325]

anybody have recipies for tightwad powder that is all I have found recently

[gunfun 3,931]

AJ re post 443: I have noticed the same lopsided cutting into the wad with both the Fed 12S0 and the WAA12. I've been meaning to take some pictures of recovered wads for a while now. IMO the 12SO is a better design, but I still haven't put in the time to do a detailed accuracy comparison between the two.

 

I am sure that the coiled support column is much earier to reload with than AA12. From my experience, AA12 doesn't always put the same pressure on powder or take up same space in hull. If it has to be compressed at all, it is inconsistent from load to load whether it compresses the powder or buckles at the "knees" making a loose shell. That makes crimps hard to get consistent too.

 

While I am going for perfect component spacing with maybe about .125" compression for consistent burn, I find 12SO and other federal wads and clones to be much more forgiving. They can be compressed none to about 1/4" and spring back the same amount from one shell to the next. This makes for good crimps. Also the stronger column may help with accuracy.

 

 

Some people use spacers inside the shotcup to protect the wad from slug base cutting under acceleration. There may be some merit to this. Look up discussions of "Key Bite" for postulating and some actual experiments. Other people's testing got a little better accuracy out of smoothbore with at least a card between the slug and wad.

 

Downrange makes some promising wads too, but not much data is available for the velocities and weights I would use. Keep in mind that the lee 1 oz slug takes up about the same shotcup space as 7/8 oz of shot. This means that hotter slug loads using a wad that fits the slug is kinda over working the colloapsible piston poriton of the wad. Alternatively you can trim down or space up wads made for heavier shot loads. This is the common approach. I don't like it because it is extra cost and work, and each additional component adds tolerance. I especially want to avoid loads that need trimming operations.

 

I like a lot of this guy's videos, and I think this is a practical way to test bore fit. However, I would not be as willing as him to substitute components in load data and work up from scratch. There are more risks with shotgun shells than I want to take on, and far less readable feed back if you are approaching pressure limits. Anyway, I think this is worth a watch:

 

wad selection vid:

 

Playlist of all his slug vids. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXrn3Tq9XDpfS0ftJIRE_T0OkA56tUnAV

[AJ Dual 43]

That's an excellent video. Thanks for posting it!

It's my own ass on the line and I won't advocate anything to anyone else, but I feel pretty safe testing stuff out in my Saiga and making substitutions that at least seem somewhat equivalent, or combinations that should reduce pressures. Like taking an oz and 1/8th load data and substituting a 1oz Lee slug, which is less weight, and less bore obduration because slugs resist swelling to the side under their own inertial like shot does etc.

 

Add to that, the Saiga has a much thicker barrel profile than many common western sporting shotguns, it has a permanent barrel attachment through the trunnion interface etc, and a rotary locking bolt, as opposed to single tilting lug like Remington or Mossberg.

[gunfun 3,931]

By the way people- I've recently found a slug recipe for ~1300 FPS.

 

This is derived from Alliant's 2013 .pdf available at their site. the data list 1290 FPS with 1 oz of shot at only 8700 PSI, but of course we know that slug substitutions shoot a little faster and typically at slightly reduced pressure. I don't have a way to measure either, but I will call it 8700 PSI at 1300FPS because that is probably pretty close. I encourage everyone to look up source data for themselves rather than taking my word for it, or anyone else's.

 

Data starts at something like 20 grains- Lookit up because I am too lazy. I loaded up to the max which is 22.5 grains as follows

 

Gold Medal hull (Thanks MSRDiver!) (I notice that the smooth gold medals crimp a little differently than ribbed, so it might be worthwhile to sort them and adjust your press a bit. Be careful not to confuse with visually similar Federal High brass paper basewad hunting hulls. Those have fairly comparable data, with listed loads just under the max for gold medal, and 6 point crimp), Federal 209A primers (typically hotter than other brands), Max 22.5 grains Green Dot, Genuine Federal 12S0 Wad, optional 2ga overshot card (I skip since I use a rifled tube.), Lee 1 oz foster.

 

These are very stong and smooth hulls with a very positive crimp. I compress the slug and wad about an eighth inch, inserting them together. They spring back about a sixteenth pretty uniformly which I find to be much better than AA type wads.

I plan to keep this as my mass produced plinker slug, and use gold medal hulls exclusively for this load to avoid the possiblity of confusion. FYI, all gold medal hulls have plastic basewad and say "gold medal" on the bottom. 8 point crimp.

 

Also, I've started a new way to weed out sucky components. I got a red sharpie. If a shell crunches or does something bad with the crimp but is still safe to shoot, I sort it into a seperate box as I load. Since, I have noticed minor imperfections with the crimp make lousy crimps the next time around, I now mark all of the 'tards with a red sharpie on the brass. I pick them all up, but next time I reload, all the 'tards get tossed before reloading. This saves me from missing a messed up one and re-using it. Justice Holmes would be proud.

[filthygovemploye 64]

 

oih, care to send me some of those? i have lee 1 oz keys and 1 ish oz lee 690 round balls...

If we lived on the same continent, but sending lead across the atlantic is expensive. Sorry.

 

hahah thanks anywayws...

 

need t ostart seeing target pics as well....

[gunfun 3,931]

A promising wad for slugs http://www.ballisticproducts.com/PT1205-VP05-12ga-7_8oz-Lead-wad-250_bag/productinfo/222PT1205/

 

See here at about 16:00.

 

 

Again, I would not be as casual about substituting components, but you are a grown up, so use your own judgement. $5/ shell to test before you risk a hand...

Edited August 19, 2013 by GunFun