Pump guns have less ways to fail-- Right?

[gunfun 3,931]

for those who care --------a cuss is yelled ----------

 

All you need to see is the last 20 or so seconds.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAadc4FxP-s

 

 

How can a mythical 870 fail?

So let's see there is short shucking,

There's jostling in a vertical plane while cycling.

There's failing to fully close the action on the forward stroke.

There's the fact that all of those motions are clumsy for people with short arms or in any position other than standing.

I guess there is having the end cap come loose too.

 

 

On a side note, it looks like they found a way to make slogging though a muddy stream fun.

Edited September 13, 2012 by GunFun

[Squishy 1,149]

I think I can safely say of all the things that could happen to an S-12, that's not one of them.

[mostholycerebus 415]

How the hell did the barrel come off? I thought you could run an 870 with no mag, it just becomes single shot.

[Groovy Mike 36]

I prefer the Saiga or a side by side....

[Razr 23]

I see them fail all the time at the shotgun matches.

[Marc 147]

How the hell did the barrel come off? I thought you could run an 870 with no mag, it just becomes single shot.

 

Mag end cap came off, most likely. The mag tube and end cap are what hold the barrel in the receiver, so no, you have to have both...you could remove the mag spring and follower if you wanted a single shot only pump gun.

[mostholycerebus 415]

Well, honestly my main issue would be working the pump reliably anyway. Its not something I would want to bet my life on in the middle of combat or when groggy at 4AM. Thats the main reason im putting together my AR15, though the way my budget is expanding I should have just got an overpriced Saiga12 to start with.

[gunfun 3,931]

Get an S12. Atlantic has them for $599, add another $150 in parts and you are still under the price of most ARs.

 

 

And the guy who posted the video did say it was his magazine cap.

 

Add one more to the failure list for many pumps.

 

-Have to hit the slide release just right to reload it. (Our old Win 1300 Stainless Marine Police's slide release started sticking then quit doing anything at all, when the breach started opening during fire, the pieces went bottom fishing so my dad wouldn't take stupid risks.) It seems like every pump has a different place for sticking that release and some take a light touch while others have to be pressed way up there. I almost bought a Nova once years ago, and the thing that stopped me was that the slide release was actually sharp. It hurt to rack the slide on a new gun. I just didn't love it enough, so I went back to looking for a Semi for a few years.

 

-- another one. I've seen a pump fed gun that had either a weak spring or grit or something so that the little catch that holds the rim of the shells as they click into the feed tube was wonky. fumble a shell in and it could spit a bunch of shells out the back. I am sure this would be cheaply fixable, but it was a real problem.

 

 

FYI, I don't hate pumps, but it bugs me when people talk about a particular gun or other gadget as if it has never failed, when we have all experienced failures with them. There are many great products that are better than average reliability that have a hyped up reputation, such that people feel like the failures they experience are out of the normal, and need to be discounted. I will be fair about reporting the failures of my beloved saiga, I loved that I fed one of my pistols way over 6k rounds with the only malfunction due to a badly deformed silver bear JHP. However, when the mag wore out, honesty requires me to say that it started failing to feed regularly and that the replacement factory and aftermarket mags do not run 100% , I like my SGM mags, but I don't feel the need to attack the handfull of people who report problems with them, and I will report that mine kept falling out of Salt's gun for no discernible reason (fully locked up solid, tab fully engaged. No other mags had this problem. Still want to get to the bottom of that one.)

 

Here's a list of popular sacred cows: 10/22, AK 47, toyota trucks, austrian plastic pistols, apple computers.

[thebuns1 4,323]

My 870 had double feed issues. I had to replace the shell stop. Havent had any issues with it since. My mossbergs have ran flawless from day one. A little sluggish at first, but still flawless and it smoothed out after I polishd the internals a tad.

 

Truth is, ANY gun can have issues, but doesnt mean ALL of them will.

 

I like pumps. If used right and keep shells in the tube while on the go, they can be a pain in the ass to deal with if your on the recievin end.

 

You should only have to hit the slide release once. After firing the first shell you shouldnt have to do that every time. If you do, Id rid myself of the gun. I'd trust all 3 of my pumps if i had to.

[Syndicate 812]

870 used to be the bees knees of stout always bang pump gun, it's not been that in a long time. I'm a recovering 870 fan boy

[GREYLUPO 358]

You guys are silly....

 

The Remington 870 is the most trusted and widely used pump gun used by Military and Police around the world, for a reason. Most errors are by the user, like short shucking it or what the dumbass in the vid did. Have you seen any LEOs riding around with a Saiga? Hell no! I like my Saiga and have HUNDREDS of rounds through it without one problem. My Remington 870 Police (not express) over a thousand and not one problem. Id stay away from the express models.

 

When SHTF, I know I can trust it. If I wanted a semi for "serious" use, Id go with the Benelli M2 or M4.

[VR762Shooter 838]

Have you seen any LEOs riding around with a Saiga? Hell no!

They could never work out a buy for those. Price/being Russian are the 2 biggest drawbacks I can see. I dont think the American public would be happy if our LEO were sporting a foreign made mag fed semi-auto shotgun, certainly not from those evil Russians

[Squishy 1,149]

You guys are silly....

 

Interesting points but I'm not certain how insulting everyone who's posted in this thread helps reenforce them.

[GREYLUPO 358]

Have you seen any LEOs riding around with a Saiga? Hell no!

They could never work out a buy for those. Price/being Russian are the 2 biggest drawbacks I can see. I dont think the American public would be happy if our LEO were sporting a foreign made mag fed semi-auto shotgun, certainly not from those evil Russians

 

Really because I know a few LEOs who really like the Italian Benellis riding around with them. What about the guns from Germany or Italy or Croatia or Austria that LEOs have been known to use?

 

You guys are silly....

 

Interesting points but I'm not certain how insulting everyone who's posted in this thread helps reenforce them.

 

 

Give me a break man I used the word silly and not even in a bad way, not dumbasses or anything like that. Nice try though, you so silly!

[VR762Shooter 838]

Really because I know a few LEOs who really like the Italian Benellis riding around with them. What about the guns from Germany or Italy or Croatia or Austria that LEOs have been known to use?

 

I dont know what models they are riding around with where you are. In my area I have yet to see one of those. They all have one problem though, they arent from those evil commie Russians

[Squishy 1,149]

Well with no tone or inflection I often default to the actual definition of the word; "weak-minded or lacking good sense; stupid or foolish", knowing whether it's in a "bad way" or not is often hard to detect.

 

Your apology is accepted.

[thebuns1 4,323]

Well if Im grabbing one of my pumps for SHTF, then its goin to be my 590A1 9 shot.

 

When SHTF, I know I can trust it. If I wanted a semi for "serious" use, Id go with the Benelli M2 or M4.

 

If I want a semi for "serious" use, Id run the KS-K up against any of Benelli's products hands down.

[Syndicate 812]

well I worked with a local city, the police sold off all their 870s for mossbergs because of the problems they were having...

I thought I would pick on up for a good deal, needless to say it's not in my ownership anymore.

 

I've been using pump guns since I was 8. never had a problem with ANY Winchester Model 12 I own.

never had a problem with the older 870 my grandfather had, it was older then me.

 

I guess I'll keep using these other pump guns that seem to work fine even though I can't figure out how to pump an 870...

[GREYLUPO 358]

Well if Im grabbing one of my pumps for SHTF, then its goin to be my 590A1 9 shot.

 

When SHTF, I know I can trust it. If I wanted a semi for "serious" use, Id go with the Benelli M2 or M4.

 

If I want a semi for "serious" use, Id run the KS-K up against any of Benelli's products hands down.

 

Nothing wrong with a 590a1 at all, its a great American made proven shotgun. I HAD a 9 shot but it proved to unwieldy and traded it for the 6 shot. I then called up this company called Choate and ordered a +2 extension. They dont list it on the website but they make them. It s completly flush with the barrel, parked, and comes with a barrel clamp and sling swivel. Its the best of both worlds. Still wouldnt choose it over my Remmy 870P though

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Every Sunday, I look in the safe at the shop to see what kind of tube fed POS I'll be working on. Winchester, Revelations, Savage, and Remington are the most common that need work. I haven't worked on a Mossberg or Maverick for anything other than barrel swaps or some type of aftermarket add on. I have never needed to repair a Saiga 12.

 

ETA: I haven't seen a Franchi break yet either.

Edited September 14, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[thebuns1 4,323]

I want to try one of the Aimpro Tactical models and see how good they run. Thats kinda funny you say that you traded your 9 for a 6, as I did the opposite. lol.

[mostholycerebus 415]

The Remington 870 is the most trusted and widely used pump gun used by Military and Police around the world, for a reason.

 

Cheap, and the buying officer is unlikely to get fired for ordering the same firearms that previous administrations have cleared as 'acceptable'.

 

But, yeah, a pump is a nice cheap weapon that very reliable, iff you train enough to get the stroking down, etc. Most cops dont though, I dont have time to put in much training myself, and when im sleepy or jacked up on adrenaline I want something point and click.

 

I guess you could say, pump guns have more ways for the user to fail?

Edited September 14, 2012 by mostholycerebus

[GREYLUPO 358]

I want to try one of the Aimpro Tactical models and see how good they run. Thats kinda funny you say that you traded your 9 for a 6, as I did the opposite. lol.

 

 

Ive heard nothing but good things about the Aimpro models. Eventually Ill just buy another 9 nothing wrong with having both lol

[GREYLUPO 358]

The Remington 870 is the most trusted and widely used pump gun used by Military and Police around the world, for a reason.

 

Cheap, and the buying officer is unlikely to get fired for ordering the same firearms that previous administrations have cleared as 'acceptable'.

 

But, yeah, a pump is a nice cheap weapon that very reliable, iff you train enough to get the stroking down, etc. Most cops dont though, I dont have time to put in much training myself, and when im sleepy or jacked up on adrenaline I want something point and click.

 

I guess you could say, pump guns have more ways for the user to fail?

 

 

What the hell are you doing with a semi auto shotgun if you dont "train enough" to use a pump gun huh? Maybe you should let LEOs around the world know they should just go with a semi cause its just point and click like they are playing a video game on the picture box. Or what about a coach gun, thats just point and click too all you need to do is load it in fact it would seem easier than both a pump and a semi. I say alot more training would be involved with a semi than a pump, its not just point and click. Like I said the Remington 870 is the most widly used (mossberg 2nd) pump shotgun in the world for a reason and not just because they are cheap. Its because they work, they are reliable and easy to use.

 

Everybody who is into shooting, home defense, ect should have a Remmy or Mossberg even if youre all about the semi.

[Syndicate 812]

So that's a big fallacy. All ducks are in fact not white. I know the 870 is widely used, not going to say it's not. In my experience it varies by department enough so that one cannot make an accurate assessment of that claim. Unless you happen to do a police shotgun census that is.

 

I'm pretty sure that CZ, an Italian brand, or many other options that are Euro made are used in Europe. I'm sure one of the same reasons that a US made shotgun is going to be favored here, it doesn't cost as much.

[gunfun 3,931]

You guys are silly....

 

The Remington 870 is the most trusted and widely used pump gun used by Military and Police around the world, for a reason. Most errors are by the user, like short shucking it or what the dumbass in the vid did. Have you seen any LEOs riding around with a Saiga? Hell no! I like my Saiga and have HUNDREDS of rounds through it without one problem. My Remington 870 Police (not express) over a thousand and not one problem. Id stay away from the express models.

 

When SHTF, I know I can trust it. If I wanted a semi for "serious" use, Id go with the Benelli M2 or M4.

 

Yep I'm silly. I used to work at an LE agency, and under the guy in charge of the weapons purchasing. I've seen weapons contracts be negotiated. LE mostly buy based on what gun the insurance policies are cheap for, not so much what gun they want. The insurance costs more to the department than the gun does. The point is that LE don't really get to carry what they would choose if they had a choice. Further, many of them don't care a whole lot what they carry. Some of them care a lot, and are very frustrated by the system unless the choices offered by the department's insurance driven plan include their gun of choice. Much of the time, depeartments do rounds of testing and find that they prefer one firearm, but end up going with something else, because insurance companies don't yet have the data to calculate risk for that firearm and fudge upward in cost.

 

Again, I am not saying an 870 is a bad gun, just that it has some downsides. Having numerous ways to "do it wrong" for the basic operation of the gun is a real downside. The more you look into actual incidents the more you find that the best trained people fumble around under stress. Semi autos do something for you that you can screw up in several ways. Less opportunity for error. That reduces danger to you. Saigas have numerous perks, but they have two downsides that seem significant in basic conversion for for LEO: 1 lots of people have a hard time quickly inserting a magazine at the range, let alone under stress, 2 it is possible to have it on the wrong gas setting, and that seems like just the sort of thing to forget. (especially since many cop shops run super weak ammo, which may not even cycle saigas)

 

And that same training time that you say people should have for the pump can be applied to any other gun. Someone who would be proficient with a pump will perform higher if he spends the same range time with a quality semi. To claim otherwise would be absurd, the time differences are easily measurable. Pumps also have more felt recoil, and favor people with long arms. Many people are small, including a lot of LE. These people will get an even greater relative improvement.

[gunfun 3,931]

And for what it's worth, most LEOs don't seem to know such a thing as a Saiga 12 exists. When they see mine at the range they ask lots of questions, and frequently say they are going to ask the brass if they can have one. It is kind of "silly" to assume that all cops know the options and are just carrying the gun they would most prefer given the choice. Cops are people with different preferences and varying amounts of knowledge. Some of them are opinionated fools too, mindlessly sticking for what is old, or mindlessly following every new fad, others are rational and choose what is most practical. Sometimes most practical means running what they have 20 years of experience on. I have a bet for you though. Give a guy who is good with an 870 a couple runs to clear a given course with his gun then let him try it twice with a good semi, and see which one is faster. My money is on the semi. More money if it is a siaga with 8 or 10 shot sticks and a magwell.

[GREYLUPO 358]

So that's a big fallacy. All ducks are in fact not white. I know the 870 is widely used, not going to say it's not. In my experience it varies by department enough so that one cannot make an accurate assessment of that claim. Unless you happen to do a police shotgun census that is.

 

I'm pretty sure that CZ, an Italian brand, or many other options that are Euro made are used in Europe. I'm sure one of the same reasons that a US made shotgun is going to be favored here, it doesn't cost as much.

 

 

 

First of all CZ is not Italian, its Czech. Second, American Police and Military use Lots of weapons that are not American. Lets see, Italian, German, Swiss, Belgium and Austrian to name a few.

Edited September 14, 2012 by GREYLUPO

[Syndicate 812]

So that's a big fallacy. All ducks are in fact not white. I know the 870 is widely used, not going to say it's not. In my experience it varies by department enough so that one cannot make an accurate assessment of that claim. Unless you happen to do a police shotgun census that is.

 

I'm pretty sure that CZ, an Italian brand, or many other options that are Euro made are used in Europe. I'm sure one of the same reasons that a US made shotgun is going to be favored here, it doesn't cost as much.

 

 

 

First of all CZ is not Italian, its Czech. Second, American Police and Military use Lots of weapons that are not American. Lets see, Italian, German, Swiss, Belgium and Austrian to name a few.

 

First of all I never said they were Italian, Read how that is worded again I said CZ, an Italian brand NOT CZ, OR another Italian brand. I never said they were Italian.

 

Never said we didn't use weapons that are foreign, but I know what GunFun is talking about from experience as well, speaking from a LEO perspective that is. No need to put words in my mouth.

 

The difference in cost from the rem shotguns and the mossbergs is quite far from a lot of the shotguns that the department I worked with tested and wanted.

 

*giggles* I'm so silly

[thebuns1 4,323]

 

*giggles* I'm so silly

 

i giggle a lot too.