Super Gunk - Gas Puck and Plug - On New/Port Modified Saiga

[dcgregorya 5]

Hey all,

 

Appreciate any of your insights. Just bought an unconverted Saiga 12, had a bunch of bells and whistles including having the port work performed on it. Recently took it out to the range and shot 100 rnds of Remington 00 2.75 through it. Handled perfectly - it came set to setting #2 and (from you guys) I already knew I had to set it to #1 so I did that before I shot it. Went to clean it and the gas plug had seized up with gunk so much that to get it off I had to use a flat piece of metal (wrench in this case) with the pin depressed and about 30 minutes of inching it along to get it off. Entire puck/plug are completely filthy. Had to use a dowel to press out the gas puck from the breech side.

 

I pinged the seller/gunshop I got it from and told them it might be overgassed and that I'm concerned about it damaging the gun. His response was that it was normal - from dirty/cheap ammo - and that a modified V-plug is what I should get for it.

 

I'm not against getting the 5 setting V-plug but I'm concerned that they might've over dremel'd the ports and I might be taking on a gun that won't last me to 2000 rounds - especially given how hard it is to find replacement Saiga parts.

 

What do you guys think and what would you recommend?

 

Thanks much.

[rnemhrd 165]

I have had the same issue with gas pucks that fit tight(factory pucks are tight, some like tapco are loose) and with the factory gas plug with about that many rounds. A little lube on the plug treads helped.I use a little grease. Not much at all. That stuff happens. As far as the ports. Need to know how many and how big they are. Someone with more exp. will help then I'm sure .They will want pics. Be warned. I have a V-plug and the fact that you do not need to press the detent in to adjust and more of it to grip is reason enough for me to buy it.I'm sure the day Evl had his gun spewing molten wad out of his barrel he had to beat his puck out.

Edited September 20, 2012 by rnemhrd

[dcgregorya 5]

I have had the same issue with gas pucks that fit tight(factory pucks are tight, some like tapco are loose) and with the factory gas plug with about that many rounds. A little lube on the plug treads helped.I use a little grease. Not much at all. That stuff happens. As far as the ports. Need to know how many and how big they are. Someone with more exp. will help then I'm sure .They will want pics. Be warned. I have a V-plug and the fact that you do not need to press the detent in to adjust and more of it to grip is reason enough for me to buy it.I'm sure the day Evl had his gun spewing molten wad out of his barrel he had to beat his puck out.

 

Thanks for the response. Glad to know I'm not alone in this issue and that hopefully swapping in a V-plug will help the situation. I'd gladly take pictures but from what I understand I need to remove the gas block and use a bore scope to take a photo of the ports right?

[Nephilim7 107]

How many ports and what size are they? Are they drilled at an angle with the top of the drill itself slanted back toward the rear of the gun?

[OBITUARY 12]

I would check to see if the gas ports were drilled straight down or at an angle. My opinion is that they should be angled like the factory made them to keep carbon at a minimum and direct gas flow to the piston face/ front. Some people grind the front sight bead and drill gas ports straight down which could make them entirely to large when the angled portion breaks off or blows out . I would not want one that someone performed the port work like that .It can get gunked up faster,and overgass . Some times i have to bump my factory piston out. but its usually after a session of 300-600 of wally world 100 round value packs . federal,winchester ,or remingtons . My ports are 3 factory I have done no gas work on my own . But I have pulled a few gas blocks and corrected them keeping the proper angle. This is my opinion and others may not agree.

[45Bretired 19]

Evl is a firm believer in the stock plug and his vids prove they work. I'm a Auto Plug guy myself but that's not important right now. Pics pics pics of the gas ports themselves. I saw a guy drill his at the opposite angle than Izzy did and he got a cheese grater for wads. Very messy make sure if you pull the block off we can tell which direction the barrel is pointing. If you take the pic close enough for us to see the ports we may not be able to see the step in the barrel.

Edited September 20, 2012 by 45Bretired

[dcgregorya 5]

How many ports and what size are they? Are they drilled at an angle with the top of the drill itself slanted back toward the rear of the gun?

 

Took the best picture I could - you can also see some of the gunk still in there (haven't cleaned it since I saw this issue):

 

 

You can see there's 4, angled towards the rear of the gun - none of them seem any larger than each other. Should I take the gas block off for better pics? Is there an easy way to do that?

 

Thanks so much for the awesome responses!

Greg

Edited September 20, 2012 by dcgregorya

[OBITUARY 12]

Don't pull the block unless you need to . pic looks good and proper i would just make sure they are not blocked i use o ring picks some use dental picks some people by using a paperclip . I don't put any kind of lube on the piston as it attracts dirt and it sticks to it.make sure you clean all oil and fouling from the piston and gas block. If you did not clean it prior to shooting it the oils may have caused your issue. They are assembled with oily substance to prevent corrosion.

Edited September 20, 2012 by OBITUARY

[rnemhrd 165]

Good pic.I have to say, that is a tease. WHERE IS THE REST OF HER? As stated all looks ok. Obit is right. I would'nt pull the gas block. My gun was a 3 port with one covered.Vodka special. Yours looks nice in there. I have read of guys running 400 to 500 rds through there guns and they ran fine, but had to beat there pucks out. It gets dirty in there. Nature of the beast.

Edited September 20, 2012 by rnemhrd

[dcgregorya 5]

Good pic.I have to say, that is a tease. WHERE IS THE REST OF HER? As stated all looks ok. Obit is right. I would'nt pull the gas block. My gun was a 3 port with one covered.Vodka special. Yours looks nice in there. I have read of guys running 400 to 500 rds through there guns and they ran fine, but had to beat there pucks out. It gets dirty in there. Nature of the beast.

 

Alright, sounds awesome. Going to pick up the V-Plug then, stick with the factory piston, will get it all cleaned up and polished and upload some follow up pictures of the whole gun .

 

Thanks for all the help guys!

[OBITUARY 12]

Check out the autoplug also it works awesome. only drawback is you are limited to using 2 3/4 shells

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I would check to see if the gas ports were drilled straight down or at an angle. My opinion is that they should be angled like the factory made them to keep carbon at a minimum and direct gas flow to the piston face/ front. Some people grind the front sight bead and drill gas ports straight down which could make them entirely to large when the angled portion breaks off or blows out . I would not want one that someone performed the port work like that .It can get gunked up faster,and overgass . Some times i have to bump my factory piston out. but its usually after a session of 300-600 of wally world 100 round value packs . federal,winchester ,or remingtons . My ports are 3 factory I have done no gas work on my own . But I have pulled a few gas blocks and corrected them keeping the proper angle. This is my opinion and others may not agree.

Are you referring to "professional results"?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1JLON0xkSY

 

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

How many ports and what size are they? Are they drilled at an angle with the top of the drill itself slanted back toward the rear of the gun?

 

Took the best picture I could - you can also see some of the gunk still in there (haven't cleaned it since I saw this issue):

 

 

You can see there's 4, angled towards the rear of the gun - none of them seem any larger than each other. Should I take the gas block off for better pics? Is there an easy way to do that?

 

Thanks so much for the awesome responses!

Greg

From the left to the right at the front of the gas block (left to right in relation to the pic)....

 

You have the threads, the small flat behind the threads, then the lip, then the interior of the gas block (the cylinder, if you will). The lip has been compromised and it is a major contributor to the plug being extremely difficult to remove after the weapon is fouled.The fouling (plastic) from the shot cups and wads is blowing into the threads. It can be fixed, but should be done by a competent welder.

 

ETA: Almost forgot. The ports look like they are angled well. However, there could be a few small burrs on the inside of the barrel that are shaving the cups and wads as they go by the ports.

 

Take a good look in the barrel from the muzzle. Stick a white rag or something at an angle where the carrier would be. Let some light shine on the rag while you look in the barrel. You may notice some burrs on the inside of the barrel. If you do....

 

Remove the gas block. The pins come out from the left to right. Use the side of a drill bit that is smaller than the ports to push and pull the port burrs back and forth until they break off. I do it while looking down the barrel. Done yet?

Edited September 21, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[rnemhrd 165]

I think I could pull a gas block off in the amount of time it took to grind the bead off, drill and tap a hole for a new bead in that shop and done it the right way. He has tha balls to say the Russians are asleep at the wheel. He's to lazy to start the car. See someone with more exp. would help. We missed that. Good catch Dr. Evl.

Edited September 21, 2012 by rnemhrd

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I think I could pull a gas block off in the amount of time it took to grind the bead off, drill and tap a hole for a new bead in that shop and done it the right way. He has tha balls to say the Russians are asleep at the wheel. He's to lazy to start the car. See someone with more exp. would help. We missed that. Good catch Dr. Evl.

The funniest thing about the whole bit is that he thinks he is doing it in a professional manner. I am horrified, but I still laugh every time I watch the video. People wonder why I never want their used Saiga 12s....

Edited September 21, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[gunfun 3,931]

That gunk is the normal by product of not cleaning after several hundred rounds. Don't worry about being "over-gassed" unless your bolt carrier is smacking the rear trunion. If you aren't sure, put some tape on the rear trunion. Then you can see if the tape gets beat up.

 

If it is easily eating all the ammo you feed it, there is No Need to pull the block or do anything to the ports.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

That gunk is the normal by product of not cleaning after several hundred rounds. Don't worry about being "over-gassed" unless your bolt carrier is smacking the rear trunion. If you aren't sure, put some tape on the rear trunion. Then you can see if the tape gets beat up.

 

If it is easily eating all the ammo you feed it, there is No Need to pull the block or do anything to the ports.

I don't agree with the tape method. Almost all S12s that eject reliably with more than one different ammo are going to hit the rear block hard enough to beat up the tape. I would suggest taking a look at the bolt tail and firing pin and look for mushrooming of the metal. Hitting the rear block is part of the design, beating the rear block hard enough to mushroom the bolt tail and firing pin is not. I wish I had some data on how much force is more than desirable and a material that could make the force measurable by the amount it is compressed. A range of compression would fall in the scope of 'normal'. anything beyond that would be considered 'overgassed'. The Autoplug could be used to counter the overgassed condition.

[rnemhrd 165]

or a progressive 1911 mainsprings in 18 or 20lb depending. The gas block on my gun is to far forward so instead of finding a welder to fill in the pin grooves and maybe mess up my barrel I added a 4th port, but got the springs incase I had any issues with to much gas. It was fun tuning the gun. I run it with a 20lb spring for what I do with it. It has run everything including bulk wally 7/8oz. 100%. I could never sell it in good faith knowing it is a true vodka special though.

Edited September 21, 2012 by rnemhrd

[Salt1219 176]

Ok i watched the video... And not to beat a dead horse and all but why didnt he remove the gas block? I just dont understand why he would remove his front sight to drill holes, he couldnt possibly get enough angle through that hole.

 

I knocked off my gas block and used a standard drill motor. Only took a few mins

[dcgregorya 5]

 

From the left to the right at the front of the gas block (left to right in relation to the pic)....

 

You have the threads, the small flat behind the threads, then the lip, then the interior of the gas block (the cylinder, if you will). The lip has been compromised and it is a major contributor to the plug being extremely difficult to remove after the weapon is fouled.The fouling (plastic) from the shot cups and wads is blowing into the threads. It can be fixed, but should be done by a competent welder.

 

ETA: Almost forgot. The ports look like they are angled well. However, there could be a few small burrs on the inside of the barrel that are shaving the cups and wads as they go by the ports.

 

Take a good look in the barrel from the muzzle. Stick a white rag or something at an angle where the carrier would be. Let some light shine on the rag while you look in the barrel. You may notice some burrs on the inside of the barrel. If you do....

 

Remove the gas block. The pins come out from the left to right. Use the side of a drill bit that is smaller than the ports to push and pull the port burrs back and forth until they break off. I do it while looking down the barrel. Done yet?

 

Yup, right on both counts. Burrs inside the barrel and the lip is missing in the spot where they widened that hole. Ugh, not happy. Sent the gunsmith the info along with the pic. Thanks for the response. I think what might be useful is for someone who knows what they're doing to post a pinned thread specifically about what *NOT* to do when doing port work lol. At least its a fixable thing - my only complaint about Saiga's is having to buy another one just for spare parts :-P.

 

Ok i watched the video... And not to beat a dead horse and all but why didnt he remove the gas block? I just dont understand why he would remove his front sight to drill holes, he couldnt possibly get enough angle through that hole.

 

I knocked off my gas block and used a standard drill motor. Only took a few mins

 

Why? Because some people weren't meant to "think" . He went and did some thinking and that's where he went wrong lol.

[rnemhrd 165]

What the guy did to your gun is refered to as a D-mod, but looks more like he drilled the gas block out. He came to far out and took the lip away. I had to go the other way on mine so my gas plug does'nt fully cover the last port. Why I run a heavier spring. My gun belongs in the land of misfit toys. I would never sell it. It runs well and it's like your first girlfriend. I know I will never buy a saiga with out eyes on it first and know what to check for now. I would'nt know half as much about the gun if it ran perfect out of the box. One way to look at it. Good luck and keep us posted.

Edited September 21, 2012 by rnemhrd

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

What the guy did to your gun is refered to as a D-mod, but looks more like he drilled the gas block out. He came to far out and took the lip away. I had to go the other way on mine so my gas plug does'nt fully cover the last port. Why I run a heavier spring. My gun belongs in the land of misfit toys. I would never sell it. It runs well and it's like your first girlfriend. I know I will never buy a saiga with out eyes on it first and know what to check for now. I would'nt know half as much about the gun if it ran perfect out of the box. One way to look at it. Good luck and keep us posted.

It was the D mod (the "don't do it mod", lol). Look at the small angle on the side of the port orifice. You can see where the side of the file got into the side of the orifice. This level of noticing detail plaques me though some people view it as a gift. icydedppl

[dcgregorya 5]

First follow up -

 

Per evl's suggestion, threw a couple wraps of teflon (PTFE) tape around the gas regulator threads. Of my own accord I went and picked up (unrelated, just general gun maintenance stuff) some graphite lubricant (gunslick) and tossed that on the rails in the receiver that carry the bolt. Gave her a good polish and threw 50 2 3/4 slugs down the range (gunsmith's recommendation to knock out any remaining burrs). So far so good, tape worked perfectly, gas regulator/plug came right off by hand afterwards. With the graphite lube the action is nice and smooth. Gun is accurate enough that I was more or less writing my name out at 50 feet with the slugs.

 

Going to put another 100 rounds of Remington 00 through her tomorrow and will post another follow up. But that PTFE tape trick is money, good call on that evl.

Edited September 23, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Paulyski 2,227]

I wish I had some data on how much force is more than desirable and a material that could make the force measurable by the amount it is compressed. A range of compression would fall in the scope of 'normal'. anything beyond that would be considered 'overgassed'. The Autoplug could be used to counter the overgassed condition.

lol... I've actually thought of fabbing up a rig & trying to find a gauge tough enough to measure gas pressure. I can't seem to find gauges that stay at the peak pressure & are resettable though & really don't have the time to tinker, but once a gauge is found, it'll be a really easy & useful tool to make & have. It'd be interesting to ship it around to people with different port sizes & see what each combo delivers.

Until then I just use minimal porting & tune them for ejection to be 6' to the two-o-clock with weak value pack shit. I never go over 3@ .093 0r 4 @ .078, so if they're not ejecting 6' to the two-o-clock with all but the shit that says "for break action & pump guns only" (which tends to cost more than value pack shit anyhow) I know I need to tune more because I missed something.

If you run with the idea & find a gauge, give a brotha a heads up. It'd be neat to take measuring these to a whole new level & begin recording stats.

I can turn down, thread & tap some stock to make the test plug if someone can find the right gauge.

 

I think if everybody can contribute info, like say a forum project that a whole lot of us participate in, we can all get a really good idea for formulas to determine all barrel/gas system lengths & what ports ideally need to be.

Meh... Or maybe I'm just obsessive compulsive when it comes to measuring.

[rnemhrd 165]

Found a digital gauge that recorded peaks spikes and all that jazz. $825.00. Thats a negative. I have been standing next to a 300psi oil filled pressure gauge that popped at 200psi in a pumping system. About shit myself. glass and oil everywhere.Not sure how many psi go in the the gas system of a saiga 12, but the gauge better be stout or your head turned if you're not sure.

Edited September 23, 2012 by rnemhrd

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Measuring the impulse gas pressure is a very interesting idea and, with all of the different ammos out there, a lot of data could be recorded for each port combo. However, what I want to measure is the pressure at which the carrier strikes the rear block. The portion of the device that actually does the measuring would really have to be compact and offer very little resistance to the rearward motion of the carrier.

 

Wow.... it just came to me. I know exactly how to do it. I'll put that on my list of 'projects to prototype'. I'm not one to just throw things out there, so when I get time to make it and have thoroughly tested it, I'll share it. I still need to work out how to address wear within the mech. I know of a very simple way to do it, but it would require use of a high-speed camera, which is too expensive for me right now. Too many other things well above that on the "short list".

 

 

dcgregorya,

I'm glad that worked out for you. Sometimes solutions are so simple that they elude us. The teflon tape also limits the escape of gases that would be better put to use cycling the action. I have seen S12s that were on the 'edge' cycle much better after a little teflon tape.

[olsn500 4]

hey evl, what about using plastigauge on the surface of the rear trunnion or on the bolt? you could tune a gun to the lightest operation by seeing what the smallest width of plastigauge you get, is to cycle the gun reliably. it would also give you a quantifiable measurement for different ammo. if it didnt break every time you fired the gun. also a high speed camera and the firing the gun with the cover off would probably allow for some tuning. crap you just said high speed camera......

Edited September 24, 2012 by olsn500

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Debris will get in there regardless , but more debris and larger pieces of debris will get in there if the shoulder is compromised. The large ports and compromised shoulder are a bad combo. At least with the teflon tape, the OP can turn the regulator a little easier. Short of welding, there aren't many options for making the ports smaller.

[olsn500 4]

I wish I had some data on how much force is more than desirable and a material that could make the force measurable by the amount it is compressed. A range of compression would fall in the scope of 'normal'. anything beyond that would be considered 'overgassed'. The Autoplug could be used to counter the overgassed condition.

lol... I've actually thought of fabbing up a rig & trying to find a gauge tough enough to measure gas pressure. I can't seem to find gauges that stay at the peak pressure & are resettable though & really don't have the time to tinker, but once a gauge is found, it'll be a really easy & useful tool to make & have. It'd be interesting to ship it around to people with different port sizes & see what each combo delivers.

Until then I just use minimal porting & tune them for ejection to be 6' to the two-o-clock with weak value pack shit. I never go over 3@ .093 0r 4 @ .078, so if they're not ejecting 6' to the two-o-clock with all but the shit that says "for break action & pump guns only" (which tends to cost more than value pack shit anyhow) I know I need to tune more because I missed something.

If you run with the idea & find a gauge, give a brotha a heads up. It'd be neat to take measuring these to a whole new level & begin recording stats.

I can turn down, thread & tap some stock to make the test plug if someone can find the right gauge.

 

I think if everybody can contribute info, like say a forum project that a whole lot of us participate in, we can all get a really good idea for formulas to determine all barrel/gas system lengths & what ports ideally need to be.

Meh... Or maybe I'm just obsessive compulsive when it comes to measuring.

 

Automotive compression testers use a tattletale pressure gauge. Maybe you could use a small engine one or something like that to measure your gas pressure.

[OBITUARY 12]

Those impact/stickers that phones use / or the ones they use for shipping would probably be the most economical. Or a compression tester . But could use of a compression tester ( If you have one with that thread size or an adapter). I'm not gonna try it