Dragons Breath/Flechette (follow up)

[msrdiver 42]

A. Please watch the video. Then read my entire response.

 

Here is a video, it isn't the full version I was seeking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paPJqUA86jw

 

 

You should have noticed the following:

Dragon's Breath

Is good for about 25 yards, still most magnesium bounced off the target at close range. NOT-AT-ALL surprising considering Mg is less dense than aluminum! How many debates are there about various lead buckshot being heavy enough to go deep enough for self defense? D.B. magnesium is losing mass as it burns before it hits the target.

 

Get some aluminum pellets and examine how fast they slow down and vastly they spread. Then consider less dense magnesium.

 

Flechette

These rounds have about 20 darts and most didn't penetrate soft armor and got stuck in the cardboard backing. I believe some are packed in backwards. Thus some flechette have to flip after leaving the wad. this means direction of travel won't be on target after they right themselves.

 

I knew a SEAL who served in the early 70's. According to him, they refused to use flechette because few darts would go to target. Most ricochet because they didn't right themselves.

 

*** I considered the statements made in the first post by the OP. ***

 

"I want to be able to fire these in my saiga(1), would be a great way to start bondfires! (also Riot Defence(2))"

-Numbers in parenthesis added.

 

1A. D.B., or most flares for that matter, are NOT intended for any semi-auto 12 gauge. You started on the wrong path.

1B. Restricted to a pump gun, consider: trigger-pump-trigger for two of these rounds and maybe immediately kill the bad guy.

Reconsider the semi auto: trigger-trigger and place 54 pellets of 4Buck in the bad guy.

Buck shot + human has been working for some time now.

1C. Congrats! You just lit the way to your concealment/cover for all other "rioters" to find you. Big OOPSY.

 

2A. Do our fellow Americans, asshole extraordinaire(s) included, deserve a burn until they die death? IMHO: No!

2B. Don't take steps to threaten a persons right to bear arms. Big flaming gun is a step in that direction and paints gun owners as lunatics. There is no public benefit to using these proposed rounds.

2C. Riot control? There are already effective riot control rounds. Most of us are civilians and need the mighty 12 gauge for defense of life not riot control. After the "riot" you might have to defend yourself against the media let alone the prosecutor. Firearm owners won't benefit here.

2D. Let's play out the riot scene. Shoot the rioting American, with the proposed round, holding an ever popular molotov cocktail and now you can enjoy the blast as well as other people trying to flee the area. Everybody loses.

 

"The flechette darts are to aid in lethality if it was used on an attacker, but primary pourpose would be to shread up the target and work in some burning magnisium."

 

Focus in your defensive shooting classes. I'm pretty certain the instructor didn't encourage maximizing the gore factor (shread up) and light 'em up (work in a burning metal that can not be extinguished). If I knew you better, I joke about your need to put down the game controller and get a girlfriend.

 

 

"don't do it" messages don't inform me of anything, not that I don't appreciate your warnings.

 

 

This community usually responds positively to innovative ideas and hardware. We are adults with vast experience and technical backgrounds asking you not to do what you are intending. There is no advantage or defensive use for the proposed rounds. The flechette do not all fly true, the magnesium is lighter than aluminum before it burns on its way to the target.

 

Defensive shooting means stopping the bad guy(s) from harming you, not setting the manicured lawn on fire. For cost, time, volume, negative public influence, and legality, just reload buck shot or slugs.

Edited September 22, 2012 by msrdiver

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

I consider the above rounds as only things to play with, and I don't play with my weapons. They are tools to be practised with and used as appropriate. IMHO, people who buy weapons and see/utilize them as toys should not have them at all.

[brad cole 65]

I agree these rounds are a bad idea for usefulness , except buck and ball. I believe that straight buckshot does the most damage in a shotgun, but birdshot is nasty at 20 yds, or possibly in a house distance.

[gunfun 3,931]

I consider the above rounds as only things to play with, and I don't play with my weapons. They are tools to be practised with and used as appropriate. IMHO, people who buy weapons and see/utilize them as toys should not have them at all.

 

I use my weapons as tools, and I play with them responsibly. I think if people are really honest with themselves almost all personal range time has more play factor than serious training. To claim otherwise strains credibility and comes across very condescending, and not very self aware. Some play is parley play and some is also useful.

 

Ask yourself this question: "would I practice the exact same amount with any of my firearms if it were not at all fun?" If you can honestly answer in the affirmative, your statement above is true. If not, you may need to get a shorter horse.

 

Cars are dangerous tools too, but I would have fun at a race track. It matters how and where you play. Play is a valid motive for any activity as long as it conforms to the rights of others, and basic morality.

 

I have a right to do whatever I want more or less so long as it does not harm or endanger others. Play is a legitimate purpose for owning a firearm. from a legal standpoint, I do not believe there is such a thing as an illegitimate purpose for owning a firearm, just illegitimate uses. 2A does not qualify my right with a purpose requirement.

 

How does that relate to novelty ammunition? I pretty much agree with all of the statements and reasoning of MSRDRIVer in the OP, to the effect that they are a potentially dangerous ineffective choice for defensive scenarios, and DB specifically tends to show a motive of cruelty more than genuine intent to stop a threat. However, if someone knows its a toy and plays with it in a responsible way, I have no problems whatsoever with that.

Edited November 16, 2012 by GunFun

[DNR 20]

I got my Saiga 12 for 3 Gun Matches. I do have a firearm for homedefense - it is more portable, easier to manipulate (ie the wife has to use it too), and kills just as dead as a 12 gauge.

I also had experience in tactical weapons in LE - the pump shotgun is still the most effective home defense gun if you can use it. The Saiga 12 to me as the same 'black gun' distinction as my AR15. If someone breaks in to my house, I know I am skilled enough to use a pistol to fix this. Some of us are aware of the legal ramifications of excessive force - criminal and civil - yes, criminals sue people who shot them. Avoid dime shot, dragons breath, and fleshettes - because a jury would likely agree with the criminal invader - you used excessive force to stop him and reward him with more hard earned money than if he stole your tv and pawned it. All the lawyer for the shot home invader has to do is show the jury your buffed up Saiga 12 with a MD20

Edited November 16, 2012 by DNR

[Marc 147]

The video posted is a propaganda piece designed only to scare and misinform ignorant LEOs and the non-gun owning public.

 

An example of this is the "Armor Piercing" ammo (which is a slug with what amounts to a sheet metal screw, screwed into the nose) is compared to buckshot. The "AP" slug removes the "securely fastened" ballistic vest from the dummy in the scariest fashion possible, and the buckshot just scuffles the vest around a little. Bullshit.

 

I wish people would do 5 minutes worth of reading on flechettes, in which they would see that the Army found that flechettes where only mildly useful/effective when several thousand of them where fired at one time from a canister load from artillary pieces in a direct-fire situation at close range...and that they sucked absolute balls from a shotgun.

[Ronswin 26]

Years ago, a friend bought several rounds of 12 ga. flechette rounds at a gun show and we proceeded to pattern the rounds at a private range. At approximately 40 yards, almost half of the flechettes hit the paper sideways and several were bent into a letter "J" going through the paper target. Not very impressive to say the least.

[lZl Jody lZl 1]

I would love to try out some dragons breath shells in a used, budget shotgun. I'm not curious enough to fire one in my Saiga though.

[Capt Nemo 882]

I wish people would do 5 minutes worth of reading on flechettes, in which they would see that the Army found that flechettes where only mildly useful/effective when several thousand of them where fired at one time from a canister load from artillary pieces in a direct-fire situation at close range...and that they sucked absolute balls from a shotgun.

 

I have seen a direct fire artillery strike with the flechettes. It is devestating at close range.

[scoutjoe 276]

I would love to try out some dragons breath shells in a used, budget shotgun. I'm not curious enough to fire one in my Saiga though.

 

Just need a pump, they leave the barrel dirty but cleans up just fine.

[gunfun 3,931]

I wish people would do 5 minutes worth of reading on flechettes, in which they would see that the Army found that flechettes where only mildly useful/effective when several thousand of them where fired at one time from a canister load from artillary pieces in a direct-fire situation at close range...and that they sucked absolute balls from a shotgun.

 

I have seen a direct fire artillery strike with the flechettes. It is devestating at close range.

 

Those would be larger more aerodynamically tuned flechettes though, correct?

[Eric Pate 478]

I wish people would do 5 minutes worth of reading on flechettes, in which they would see that the Army found that flechettes where only mildly useful/effective when several thousand of them where fired at one time from a canister load from artillary pieces in a direct-fire situation at close range...and that they sucked absolute balls from a shotgun.

 

I have seen a direct fire artillery strike with the flechettes. It is devestating at close range.

 

Those would be larger more aerodynamically tuned flechettes though, correct?

It is my understanding that flechettes (I've only ever seen the one size) are only effective when propelled at relatively high velocity by explosive charge i.e. artillery shell or aerial bomb. They are apparently quite effective against unarmored targets in that application and I've heard that they are still in the inventory for use when artillery positions are in danger of being overrun.

 

The military did experiment with a flechette which could be stabilized at lower velocities, called SCMITR: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCMITR

Its like a stack of razorblades, the larger mass means it carries more inertia. Heres a pic of one:

 

Compare this with the previous "beehive round" that used the small diameter (ineffectual) flechettes:

If you read that description you'll notice that US Gov't beehive rounds are packed into a plastic casing point-first, resting on an aluminum disc, and packed tightly with a granular filler. Which is completely different than the jumbled, non-oriented, wad of flechettes that get packed into commercially available or home-made flechette rounds.

 

They tried several variations before the project was abandoned. They made a 40mm version, theres a .45 ACP round with a single projo in a sabot. Heres a single (I think) projo in a sabot'd 20 gauge case:

 

Interesting stuff. Must not have yielded much in the way of results though.

[Ronin38 2,117]

This reminds me of all the unusual rounds that used to be fired from cannon.

 

[Syndicate 812]

You ever seen those rubber things that have fins they sell at the zombie shenanigans booths?

[gunfun 3,931]

Always interesting to learn something new.

 

That flechettes suck is common knowledge for those who care to investigate. There are always a bunch of people who want to believe marketing hype or want to believe that they can come up with something on the way home which will outperform 400 years of experimentation and development.

 

That's right. I can't believe all of the firearms industry overlooked the brilliant idea of packing a shotgun shell with finishing brads. What the industry needed was your original brilliance...

 

Not that I want to discourage real refinement or original ideas, but there are people who will just throw out lazy ideas and claim they work without testing, or looking to see if an idea has been tried before.

 

for instance this guy:

 

 

I know him and he is not joking here. I would not be at all surprised if he had bought dragons' breath as HD ammo.

[breid1970 327]

 

I wish people would do 5 minutes worth of reading on flechettes, in which they would see that the Army found that flechettes where only mildly useful/effective when several thousand of them where fired at one time from a canister load from artillary pieces in a direct-fire situation at close range...and that they sucked absolute balls from a shotgun.

 

I have seen a direct fire artillery strike with the flechettes. It is devestating at close range.

 

Beehive round?