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Alleged AK gunsmith said this..


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"The Vepr 12 is gonna be the same as a Saiga12, but with rails and a thicker receiver.

 

The ticker receiver doesn't matter by the way. The Saiga 12s use a thick receiver as well.

 

Molot doesnt make higher quality shit by any means. If you didn't know, Russia makes its guns in its large factory complexes. The light vehicle (motorcycles, cars) plant at izhmash also makes the AKs and SVDs and Makarovs and maybe some other shit. The Molot plant makes heavy vehicles (tractors and shit), and also RPKs and other shit.

 

The Vepr12 will have its bolt carrier broken just like the Saiga12 gets after a while. Why? Cause AKs were not really meant for a 12 gauge. The thicker receiver does nothing to improve anything really. The only reason that it is thicker is because the plant that makes it is equipped with tools for making RPKs. Saiga12s at izhmash, they have tools to make AK receiver shit and similar.

 

People think that the vepr12 will be cooler than the Saiga12 because the Vepr rifles are cooler than the Saiga rifles. The Vepr rifles are cooler because Vepr is an RPK, which means that it has a thicker barrel than an AK, which matters when it comes to rifle cartridges. Veprs make more accurate rifles than AKs, and they are more rugged due to being thicker and whatnot.

 

The Vepr12 is just a pimped out Saiga12 with rails and folding stocks and pistol grips and shit. You can do most of that to a Saiga12, and youll end up with most of the cost of the Vepr12.

 

What makes the Vepr appealing is the fact that it is ready to go from the box. This means that all you limp wristed ******* dont have to use scary hand tools to achieve a better gun.

 

That being said, I will still buy one even though I am an AK smith.

 

Do you understand?"

 

 

 

Any of this true?

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There are threads on here about all kinds of Saiga problems from undrilled gas holes (lol), to cracked bolt carriers. And yes, Russia is building stuff commie style, and their gun "companies" make vehicles and machinery too.

 

I make car for the driving, yes? I make gun for the shooting at the same time.

 

P.S. I wouldn't call an AK smith an gunsmith. AKs are guns, but you can slap one together in your garage with the simplest of tools, which will not really teach you about smiting other guns, I dont think. Just my opinion.

Edited by Agent Lemon
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But does his argument hold merit regarding the bolt carrier?

 

No gun maker makes 100% perfect guns every time all the time. Except HK lol. I am sure there will be lemons just like with any other manufacturing. The real test will if any problems are defects ( 1 off problems) or systemic issues (design flaws). Only time will tell. Furthermore these are the first VEPR's to be brought into this country, so everything is mostly speculation unless it comes from first hand experience in another country.

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An 'AK gunsmith' is not a real gunsmith. He is an armorer. A true gunsmith can deal with any gun.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

Also Vulgotha, where did you read the pasted block of text? The guy sounds like a bARFCOM poster.

 

Of all places, 4chan /k/ thread (weapons).

 

And yea, I've looked into this a bit and have seen alot of cracked carriers for the S12 talked about on this very forum. The jerk armorer\smith said this is due to americans 'overgassing' their guns and abusing the weapon. Even still, I don't want to trash my Vepr y'know?

 

replacement parts will be extremely rare or expensive..

 

So if you know of any reason why his statements are incorrect I'd love to know. Or if you can think of ways ammo types that are effective which won't beat the gun to death.

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Well, maybe Sergi or PapaZorro will pop in with better info but seeming how they have in depth firsthand knowledge of both platforms and have stated that the Veprs are better built guns with more focus on quality control, I'm going with their reports over your gunsmith.

 

Standby and I'll try to dig up Sergi's thread on his Veprs...

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Of all places, 4chan /k/ thread (weapons).

 

And yea, I've looked into this a bit and have seen alot of cracked carriers for the S12 talked about on this very forum. The jerk armorer\smith said this is due to americans 'overgassing' their guns and abusing the weapon. Even still, I don't want to trash my Vepr y'know?

 

replacement parts will be extremely rare or expensive..

 

So if you know of any reason why his statements are incorrect I'd love to know. Or if you can think of ways ammo types that are effective which won't beat the gun to death.

 

Not sure about the ammo. A different gas regulator could help I suppose.

 

The Vepr 12 should have a self regulating thing though, so it shouldn't beat stuff to death.

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Well the cost bit is wrong, if you start with an S12 and add all the parts to get to a vepr you are going to spend way more. if you start with an O_x_O model, you are going to have simliar money. - correct me if I am wrong here and tally parts to come up with a total. Just a TWS rail and Dinzag RSB makes up most of the difference right there and you haven't even converted...

 

but the point about weight makes sense to me. Since no saiga 12 receiver has ever failed or come close, the extra thick walls are just extra weight for no reason. That is not what I call a plus.

 

The talk about bolt failure is an interesting point too, but how many people have actually had the bolt itself fail? I've only ever seen the carrier where the op rod connects. Vepr may well be tougher there.

 

All in all, I would love a Vepr, and so far I think I would rather have one than a mid range professionally converted saiga for the same money. Also, no waiting list. They either have it or not. Well, they take pre-orders I suppose, but that's not like waiting for magic day once a year to get a basic conversion with no customization and half the options.

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Well the cost bit is wrong, if you start with an S12 and add all the parts to get to a vepr you are going to spend way more. if you start with an O_x_O model, you are going to have simliar money. - correct me if I am wrong here and tally parts to come up with a total. Just a TWS rail and Dinzag RSB makes up most of the difference right there and you haven't even converted...

 

but the point about weight makes sense to me. Since no saiga 12 receiver has ever failed or come close, the extra thick walls are just extra weight for no reason. That is not what I call a plus.

 

The talk about bolt failure is an interesting point too, but how many people have actually had the bolt itself fail? I've only ever seen the carrier where the op rod connects. Vepr may well be tougher there.

 

All in all, I would love a Vepr, and so far I think I would rather have one than a mid range professionally converted saiga for the same money. Also, no waiting list. They either have it or not. Well, they take pre-orders I suppose, but that's not like waiting for magic day once a year to get a basic conversion with no customization and half the options.

 

Sounds like a pretty good deal. How much more is it to make them 922r compliant?

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One of my main reasons for getting the vepr is the mag well setup. Sure i know there are aftermarket ones, but a factory magwell seems more likely to come closer to a standard which one can benefit from in terms of magazine availability, possibly even compatibility with other AK based shotties with factory magwells one day, etc.

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So his allegations are not necessarily a fault with the design per se? Meaning a poorly put together weapon platform that is prone to breaking itself apart?

 

I think the guy's point is that the Saiga 12 and Vepr 12 are of similar quality, that the receiver thickness is negligible and only translates into increased weight, and the barrel advantage of Vepr rifles is lost in the shotgun format.

 

So the advantages of the Vepr 12 are its out-of-the-box features (which still justify the cost, imo), but DIY types might want to grab a Saiga and DIY...

 

It's like the Arsenal SLR 106FR v. Saiga 223 argument, which ends up in circles.

Edited by Koljec
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it's just like in the car world you are not a mechanic if you are just throwing parts at a car.

 

you are not a gunsmith if you are just putting scopes on guns and simple tasks.

 

The terms get used very loosely.

 

The 2 gunsmiths I go to are old, crotchedy, and damn good at what they do. They get more biz from "gunsmiths" then anyone else. And if something is beyond what their shop or just not a skill they have, which there are few between them, they won't bullshit you and then mess up your stuff, they'll tell you and then let you know who can do what you want. One is an aerospace engineer, machinist, etc. that has been working on guns since he was 15, his dad was an old school smith, machanist, engineer as well. The other has a similar background, but changed careers to being SWAT (is vietnam vet) and an armorer.

Edited by Syndicate
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but the point about weight makes sense to me. Since no saiga 12 receiver has ever failed or come close, the extra thick walls are just extra weight for no reason. That is not what I call a plus.

 

 

 

If thats the case, then the Vepr should never have an issue in that regard.

 

 

 

So his allegations are not necessarily a fault with the design per se? Meaning a poorly put together weapon platform that is prone to breaking itself apart?

 

the guy just sounds like a fucking moron to me

 

Well said Hammer. Guy bashes it, then says he's going to get one. He dont know shit about it, and is basing everything off of the S12.

 

And he can say what he wants, but Molot does have better QC overall.

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teh thicker receiver is easier on all the other parts, and decreases(too many variables so not always) friction in the moving parts. When fired the receiver flexes all over the place, with a thicker receiver it flexes less. Less flex = less binding/hammering of moving parts. it is not simply a question of receiver failure.

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How many op rod failures do you see on a saiga 12. I have been on here for several years and have seen no more than 4 separate occasions if that. Most people blame this on over gassed guns and or bad metal on the carrier maybe improper pining or receiver gas block not alligned correctly. Its a non issue.

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Cadiz makes heavy duty op-rods, which leads me to believe that it happened enough for Tom Cole to be motivated to make a heavy duty replacement. I don't know the primary cause of this issue, but it happens to some people. I'm sure that poor QC has something to do with it. Regardless, I still think that the longer vepr-12 op rod will prevent this issue.

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How many op rod failures do you see on a saiga 12. I have been on here for several years and have seen no more than 4 separate occasions if that. Most people blame this on over gassed guns and or bad metal on the carrier maybe improper pining or receiver gas block not alligned correctly. Its a non issue.

 

99.9% of the op rod failures we see occur due to improper heat treating. About 1/2 of the failures that do occur are because the metal is too brittle. The other 1/2 occur because the metal is too soft.

 

Bolt carrier defects -which are less frequent than defective op rods - are almost always attributable to casting quality, and porosity.

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My bolt carrier cracked towards where it was peened. I drilled out where it was peened, installed a heavy duty op rod and riveted it in the opposite direction. I haven't had a problem since. This leads me to believe that the peened area is weak point when the puck hits the op rod. It may not be a problem, if QC is not problem. I just think that since the Vepr-12 op rod is longer, there will be less shock due to impact of the puck and op rod. More of a push and less of a collision.

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"The Vepr 12 is gonna be the same as a Saiga12, but with rails and a thicker receiver.

 

The ticker receiver doesn't matter by the way. The Saiga 12s use a thick receiver as well.

 

Molot doesnt make higher quality shit by any means. If you didn't know, Russia makes its guns in its large factory complexes. The light vehicle (motorcycles, cars) plant at izhmash also makes the AKs and SVDs and Makarovs and maybe some other shit. The Molot plant makes heavy vehicles (tractors and shit), and also RPKs and other shit.

 

The Vepr12 will have its bolt carrier broken just like the Saiga12 gets after a while. Why? Cause AKs were not really meant for a 12 gauge. The thicker receiver does nothing to improve anything really. The only reason that it is thicker is because the plant that makes it is equipped with tools for making RPKs. Saiga12s at izhmash, they have tools to make AK receiver shit and similar.

 

People think that the vepr12 will be cooler than the Saiga12 because the Vepr rifles are cooler than the Saiga rifles. The Vepr rifles are cooler because Vepr is an RPK, which means that it has a thicker barrel than an AK, which matters when it comes to rifle cartridges. Veprs make more accurate rifles than AKs, and they are more rugged due to being thicker and whatnot.

 

The Vepr12 is just a pimped out Saiga12 with rails and folding stocks and pistol grips and shit. You can do most of that to a Saiga12, and youll end up with most of the cost of the Vepr12.

 

What makes the Vepr appealing is the fact that it is ready to go from the box. This means that all you limp wristed ******* dont have to use scary hand tools to achieve a better gun.

 

That being said, I will still buy one even though I am an AK smith.

 

Do you understand?"

 

 

 

Any of this true?

 

Just from the way this reads the guy seems like a real daa-ooosh bag IMO

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I apologize for the translation.

I own a gun Vepr-12 about five years. And I would like to say why my choice was not in favor of the Saiga 12. Vepr12 has a barrel of cold rotary forging, as Saiga - hot-forged barrel. Cold forging - it is more expensive and high-quality manufacturing process barrel of a gun. Hardening of the bolt is the normal technology at Vepr12. Saiga - this product for perverts who can not live without adventures on his ass, and still pay for that money. Izhevsk bungler product, made in violation of all processing technologies and hardening metal.

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I apologize for the translation.

I own a gun Vepr-12 about five years. And I would like to say why my choice was not in favor of the Saiga 12. Vepr12 has a barrel of cold rotary forging, as Saiga - hot-forged barrel. Cold forging - it is more expensive and high-quality manufacturing process barrel of a gun. Hardening of the bolt is the normal technology at Vepr12. Saiga - this product for perverts who can not live without adventures on his ass, and still pay for that money. Izhevsk bungler product, made in violation of all processing technologies and hardening metal.

 

Do not appologize, my friend. That is fucking hilarious!

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