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My first problem, cycling, naturally


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So I followed the forum advice, and took my brand new Saiga 12 out of the box and went from hi brass down to cheap federal game loads.

 

Hi brass went well with out a single problem.

 

Cheap game loads would not cycle about 90% of the time.

 

Low brass doesn't work well on either setting.

 

Should I go the cheap route first, and put in the reliability kit for about $50, or pay to have Pauly do the expensive polish job?

 

After studying videos, and many many posts, I learned and understand all aspects of the gun, except for the gas ports.

 

Should that be the first problem to address?

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I used to be a break-in guy because it worked for my borderline gun to just shoot it a lot. I really believe that hand cycling the weapon will do the same thing as shooting it to break-in. Bottom line

You must REALLY trust that bolt hold open!!!

"So I followed the forum advice, and took my brand new Saiga 12 out of the box and went from hi brass down to cheap federal game loads."   I'm a newbie here but I'd imagine before you spend any mone

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How much of the hi brass did you put through it before switchiing to the low brass? A lot of people recommend an average of between 100-300 of hi brass for breaking the gun in. Then it should (but not necessarily will) cycle the low brass better. I'd try that before dumping a lot of money on parts just yet.

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"So I followed the forum advice, and took my brand new Saiga 12 out of the box and went from hi brass down to cheap federal game loads."

 

I'm a newbie here but I'd imagine before you spend any money at least polish/grease the rails and run a couple hundred rounds of high brass through it. Cycling is a matter of resistance vs force. Adding more gas cycles it better but so does reducing the resistance of the bolt. I know I'm still working on my rails myself, just bought some lapping compound for them. Mine already has the ports enlarged (bought it that way, see my other thread). But, if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have gotten any port work done, I'd have racked the gun 1000 times with lapping compound and if that wasn't enough swapped out the piston spring with JTE piston spring and if that still didn't work just gotten a V-Plug. Did you change to setting 2?

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I learned and understand all aspects of the gun, except for the gas ports.

 

Should that be the first problem to address?

 

what don't you understand? The gas ports are the holes that gas escapes from the barrel into the gas tube with. That gas moves the puck and cycles the gun. If the ports are plugged, no gas gets through. Open ports = reliable cycling. Watch my avatar if in doubt....

Edited by Groovy Mike
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'break in' is BS. Do you think TAC47, Lonestar, Tromix or I run hundreds of rounds of 'high brass' through these things to make them run 'low brass'? No, we don't.

 

Not sure what you're implying. You don't think the action gets smoother after the springs and rails have been pounded by a couple hundred rounds?

 

I know this goes against what some of the veteran forum members think but I was able to solve all of my low brass FTEs with just buying the MD Arms V-Plug; no polishing needed, no gas port work needed, nothing (mine already had 4 ports).

 

Well I think every gun should have a basic polish on the rails/slides. There's a huge difference between machine polishing the bolt to a glass finish and just running some lapping compound through it or racking the hell out of it - the 2nd one is easy and just practical imho just as a matter of getting the most out of your possessions. I want to be able to rack the action with my weak-side pinky, just makes the gun more fun/natural to operate.

Edited by dcgregorya
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Welcome to the forum. beer.gif

 

Definitely acquaint yourself with the gas ports (as well as everything else you can regarding your S12).

 

Here's a decent place to start researching:

 

http://forum.saiga-1...ead-this-first/

 

The whole "break in" thing can be misleading. For your average owner that doesn't buy and sell Saigas, having one that doesn't cyle will often be dealt with over the course of time with different loads, buying some aftermarket things to see if they help or working on the firearm to try and smooth things out. If the gun isn't getting enough gas and/or the action is having to overcome too much friction, it won't reliably cycle. Simple as that. As evlblkpnz points out, people that are in the business of converting and selling custom Saigas don't have the time or inclination to break them in. They'll polish up the areas that rub on each other, to reduce friction and they'll make sure the ports are there and not blocked. That's all you really need to do.

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How much of the hi brass did you put through it before switchiing to the low brass? A lot of people recommend an average of between 100-300 of hi brass for breaking the gun in. Then it should (but not necessarily will) cycle the low brass better. I'd try that before dumping a lot of money on parts just yet.

OK, only put about 30 hi brass, and 50 low brass through it.

Did you change to setting 2?

I used setting 1 for hi brass, and setting 2 for the other, I think that's the way I read it here.

 

Welcome to the forum. beer.gif

 

Definitely acquaint yourself with the gas ports (as well as everything else you can regarding your S12).

 

Here's a decent place to start researching:

 

http://forum.saiga-1...ead-this-first/

 

The whole "break in" thing can be misleading. For your average owner that doesn't buy and sell Saigas, having one that doesn't cyle will often be dealt with over the course of time with different loads, buying some aftermarket things to see if they help or working on the firearm to try and smooth things out. If the gun isn't getting enough gas and/or the action is having to overcome too much friction, it won't reliably cycle. Simple as that. As evlblkpnz points out, people that are in the business of converting and selling custom Saigas don't have the time or inclination to break them in. They'll polish up the areas that rub on each other, to reduce friction and they'll make sure the ports are there and not blocked. That's all you really need to do.

 

I've been through quite a bit of those posts, thanks for the welcome.

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Your results with an out of the box S12 sound typical to me. I don't think you are doing anything wrong. The fact that the "high brass" runs well is a good sign. It is worth confirming that the gas ports are open and not clogged by residue, bits of plastic hull etc. After that I'd say reassemble and just go shoot it more. If you don't want to work through the rough edges by firing it go ahead and buy the CSS "low brass reliability kit" to run in your gun for the next two or three hundred shells. Then you should be able to switch back to the original spring for all loads. Just my two cents....

Edited by Groovy Mike
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'break in' is BS. Do you think TAC47, Lonestar, Tromix or I run hundreds of rounds of 'high brass' through these things to make them run 'low brass'? No, we don't.

 

Not sure what you're implying. You don't think the action gets smoother after the springs and rails have been pounded by a couple hundred rounds?

 

I know this goes against what some of the veteran forum members think but I was able to solve all of my low brass FTEs with just buying the MD Arms V-Plug; no polishing needed, no gas port work needed, nothing (mine already had 4 ports).

 

Well I think every gun should have a basic polish on the rails/slides. There's a huge difference between machine polishing the bolt to a glass finish and just running some lapping compound through it or racking the hell out of it - the 2nd one is easy and just practical imho just as a matter of getting the most out of your possessions. I want to be able to rack the action with my weak-side pinky, just makes the gun more fun/natural to operate.

200-300 rounds of high brass may or may not do anything at all, in the way of making the weapon reliably fire 'low brass' loads. It definitely will never do what a decent set of files, grinding and sanding implements, quality drill bits, and sand paper will do. I'm just saying that dollar for dollar, an action job or some tools will better serve the user than trying the beat the weapon into submission and likely still not getting anywhere but broke. If it was as easy as firing a bunch of expensive ammo, people wouldn't send their guns and parts out for months and pay someone to work on them.

 

Here are a few of good questions to consider....

How much is 300 rounds of the cheapest non-low recoil buck?

How much is a reprofile/polish job on the action?

How much are the tools to do it yourself?

 

The guys that aren't handy, should probably just send the stuff out. The guys that are should go buy some tools.

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I used to be a break-in guy because it worked for my borderline gun to just shoot it a lot. I really believe that hand cycling the weapon will do the same thing as shooting it to break-in. Bottom line is that smoothing the action by reprofiling can not be matched by break-in. If the ports are blocked or undersized that is the problem.

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I'm not a break-in believer either. I do, however, believe that the factory plug leave a lot to be desired. There are plenty of options out there.

I modify the factory regulators and exclusively use them or Autoplugs, depending on the purpose of the individual weapon. However, I do wish the factory regulator would have been designed so that it could be adjusted easily with no tool. I believe the design was geared more toward reducing liability.

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So you get all this Pro2A ,If not let me throw in my noobie experence with you I took my new s-12 out of the box ran 10 rd. high brass and Wal-mart trash,

After 700-800 rds low brass I polished the bolt with the guidances of a good friend who had already did the same to his had some FTE then changed the springs out with performance springs and she been alot of fun to shoot since, just listen to the guy's in here and the'll guide you into some good information have fun.

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I'm all for trying suggestions, and I'd like to start with the cheapest fix.

I'm not against polishing the bolt, but I'd just like to have a cadillac "glassbolt" job done on it someday.

I've just read elsewhere on the board that polishing didn't do much for them.

Like Black Russian suggested, I'm wondering if it's a port problem.

Is there such a thing as overgassed? Does that beat up or break the parts. I really tried to search for something like that and couldn't get any over gassing opinions.

I took the best picture I could, and you can see the edges of the other two ports with the naked eye, but I can't get the camera angled in there good enough.

I'm wondering if this is the procedure that would help out immensely,......http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=33836

 

Here is my port situation......

2530657-glnk.jpg

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It looks like the front port is probably covered by the gas block. Remove the gas block and increase the factory bevel a little there. Just enough to clear the port and do not do anything that will disturb the interior of the gas block.

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It looks like the front port is probably covered by the gas block. Remove the gas block and increase the factory bevel a little there. Just enough to clear the port and do not do anything that will disturb the interior of the gas block.

Can you take a bent paperclip and stick it into all the ports?

evlblkwpnz, I thought the other two "unseen" ports would be blocked, and the bevel would need to be filed a little, like you said.

But before I started taking the whole thing apart, I tried the bent paperclip "tool", and I can put it in all 3 ports and clearly see it in the barrel when looking down it.

And the clip comes right thru the holes, with no effort or wiggling.

So in my amateur opinion, the ports are totally clear.

I guess I'm leaning back to the polishing and removing rough edges step.

I just don't want to remove the wrong rough edge.

Edited by Pro2A
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I have two s12's and had to break them both in.

 

All I had to do is put some gun oil on the carrier and rails, hand-cycle the action a couple hundred times while watching TV and then bought two Walmart value pack birdshot (200rds) and the first 100 I had to manually cycle to load/eject...

*BUT*

Now have two S12's that cycle 100% with low brass/birdshot and I have never polished anything on the guns.

 

It just takes a little oil

A little elbow action

200 birdshot. ($45)

And a little patience.

 

Try it. If that doesn't work, come back here and call me out on it. But if I'm right, well....

 

Oh, and I forgot to mention...

 

I have an '09 3-port and an '11 4-port. Both were gritty when cycled out of the box and as I said, both are 100% now with no modification.

Edited by TheDarkHorse
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It looks like the front port is probably covered by the gas block. Remove the gas block and increase the factory bevel a little there. Just enough to clear the port and do not do anything that will disturb the interior of the gas block.

Can you take a bent paperclip and stick it into all the ports?

evlblkwpnz, I thought the other two "unseen" ports would be blocked, and the bevel would need to be filed a little, like you said.

But before I started taking the whole thing apart, I tried the bent paperclip "tool", and I can put it in all 3 ports and clearly see it in the barrel when looking down it.

And the clip comes right thru the holes, with no effort or wiggling.

So in my amateur opinion, the ports or totally clear.

I guess I'm leaning back to the polishing and removing rough edges step.

I just don't want to remove the wrong rough edge.

What year is the weapon?

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It looks like the front port is probably covered by the gas block. Remove the gas block and increase the factory bevel a little there. Just enough to clear the port and do not do anything that will disturb the interior of the gas block.

Can you take a bent paperclip and stick it into all the ports?

evlblkwpnz, I thought the other two "unseen" ports would be blocked, and the bevel would need to be filed a little, like you said.

But before I started taking the whole thing apart, I tried the bent paperclip "tool", and I can put it in all 3 ports and clearly see it in the barrel when looking down it.

And the clip comes right thru the holes, with no effort or wiggling.

So in my amateur opinion, the ports or totally clear.

I guess I'm leaning back to the polishing and removing rough edges step.

I just don't want to remove the wrong rough edge.

What year is the weapon?

From what I've learned here, 2012.

The first three serial digits are H12

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Just because a paper clip will fit in there that doesn't mean much. Depending on how big a paper clip you are using, it should be able to fit a much larger wire. A standard small paper clip is only about .026" thick. That's only a third of the minimum size your ports need to be to actually work with low brass. Even a larger size paper clip is only .034"...still less than half.

 

The whole "break in" school of thought is complete and utter bullshit, if the gas ports are obstructed or of insufficient size.

 

ANY S-12 can benefit greatly by the proper re-profiling and polishing that I do, Pauly does, and others who understand the whole concept.

 

And finally... Just "polishing" the parts is not doing near half of what can be achieved with an improved profile (On bolt, carrier, AND hammer...). Just walking into the nearest walmart and buying a dremel, then carefully and tediously polishing and shining everything up is not anything at all similar to what my customers experience when they operate their S-12s after the upgrades. SHINY does not improve function like the way it needs improved on these guns. You can make the damn thing gleaming mirror reflective from one end to the other, inside and out, but it will still be an overbuilt russian tank that is more difficult to load on a closed bolt, and takes much more energy out of the system to cycle the bolt.

Anyone who has actually been around AKs and has handled / used them.... knows first hand exactly how liquid smooth the operation of the weapon is...the older and more seasoned the better. Yes "breaking in" an AK RIFLE over hundreds and thousands of rounds DOES help make it much smoother. An AK is NOT the same as a Saiga 12 shotgun. It shoots a much higher pressure round for one, so reliable cycling is a non issue with good mags and ammo. It's more important to realize though, that an AK rifle has a much smaller bolt, and a different carrier profile, as well as a completely different gas system. The S-12 has a tappet added to the front end, then a huge over sized bolt and carrier all crammed down into the exact same sized receiver as an AK rifle. It sits lower, applies more pressure downward on the top round in the mag AND the hammer, during cycling (especially an un-profiled AK RIFLE hammer like the G-2 on a converted gun...), a different recoil spring, much larger shells that have to be flung free of the action on ejection, and a much different feed ramp / barrel hood that also comes into play. The shells themselves are fat and blunt on the leading edge... not small and pointed to aid in chambering. Everything important about the gun makes it a lot harder to get reliable operation from, compared to a real AK rifle. So it's very important if you plan on using weak shitty ammo it wasn't even meant to shoot, that every last little bit of friction and resistance be removed from the system, if you want to trust your life with it. My guns are as smooth as silk, with actions just as smooth as my well worn Maadi 7.62x39. There is zero resistance or hanging up on anything cycling the bolt. You can NOT achieve that by just shooting a bunch of magnum loads, or even if you polish every stinking part of the gun so shiny you need sunglasses to look at it. It's the actual geometry that's holding these guns back from running super smooth. BAD design for light loads...period. This is not an opinion, it's a very simple and very real fact. Anyone who denies it has not felt the difference a real re-profile and polish makes.

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