evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 Lots of knowledge in Cobra's post. Read it twice. If what I thinks I see is what I really see, then this is close to how your ports should be arranged. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dcgregorya 5 Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 The whole "break in" school of thought is complete and utter bullshit, if the gas ports are obstructed or of insufficient size. ANY S-12 can benefit greatly by the proper re-profiling and polishing that I do, Pauly does, and others who understand the whole concept. And finally... Just "polishing" the parts is not doing near half of what can be achieved with an improved profile (On bolt, carrier, AND hammer...). I think that's all very true. If your ports are blocked, that's a warranty covered thing. Smoothing out the carrier action with lapping compound, is not going to help you load on a closed bolt like cutting away metal off the bolt will. And finally, having a professional polish your entire system is going to work better than you doing it yourself. That being said, having a professional reprofile your gun isn't technically necessary to have a reliable gun. If you want the best of the best, then you pay for the best. If you just want basic reliability, you get your warranty work done by Cadiz and you lap down the carrier rails and you're good to go. Personally I'd get the ports handled by warranty, get it to a baseline of reliability, then choose what bells and whistles you want to add on. After all, $100 buys you a new sight system, or a mercury recoil reducer and a basic slant brake or a variety of other things - you shouldn't need to spend that just to get the thing firing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 Cadiz still does warranty work??? Im not sure about that. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pro2A 17 Posted October 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Lots of knowledge in Cobra's post. Read it twice. If what I thinks I see is what I really see, then this is close to how your ports should be arranged. Thanks for the location, if there's a fourth it's nowhere exposed. I have read it twice,......and exchanged emails Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 The whole "break in" school of thought is complete and utter bullshit, if the gas ports are obstructed or of insufficient size. ANY S-12 can benefit greatly by the proper re-profiling and polishing that I do, Pauly does, and others who understand the whole concept. And finally... Just "polishing" the parts is not doing near half of what can be achieved with an improved profile (On bolt, carrier, AND hammer...). I think that's all very true. If your ports are blocked, that's a warranty covered thing. Smoothing out the carrier action with lapping compound, is not going to help you load on a closed bolt like cutting away metal off the bolt will. And finally, having a professional polish your entire system is going to work better than you doing it yourself. That being said, having a professional reprofile your gun isn't technically necessary to have a reliable gun. If you want the best of the best, then you pay for the best. If you just want basic reliability, you get your warranty work done by Cadiz and you lap down the carrier rails and you're good to go. Personally I'd get the ports handled by warranty, get it to a baseline of reliability, then choose what bells and whistles you want to add on. After all, $100 buys you a new sight system, or a mercury recoil reducer and a basic slant brake or a variety of other things - you shouldn't need to spend that just to get the thing firing. Define "reliable"... To me a $600 - $1200 shotgun is not anything near reliable if : 1. It's hard to load on a closed bolt, 2. You can't even leave the thing loaded for longer than a little while without the bolt locked back, or no mag in the weapon. (TRD...) 3. It still works but feels clunky when charging it. 4. It gouges shells in the mag, as well as during attempting to chamber a round... sometimes resulting in FTF. 5. The amount of excess friction encountered (even with lapping compound having been smeared on internals for a 'poor man's polish') is too great to allow guaranteed 100% reliability with low brass. 6. The gun starts gettting a little dirty or the gas system fouled from crappy ammo, and it soon starts experiencing FTF and FTE. 7. I could go on.... Even if you can find someone still performing warranty work on these lemons, it will just be a basic quick fix to get it to cycle low brass. What used to be done, and I don't think is even available any more, is a small access hole was drilled in the top of the gas block, then ports could be added or enlarged til it would cycle. Sorry but I would much rather address the root of the problem and gladly pay $100 + to have my already expensive Shotgun work on the gas system it was given at the factory, and test fired with at the factory. Many times just relieving the S-12 of it's inherent design flaws, is enough to make it run reliably without having to enlarge the ports, and end up getting more and more crap built up in the gas block, causing what again??? UN - reliability. That's just my opinion but hey.... take it with a grain of salt since I do in fact sell a service guaranteed to fix these problems in all but the most severely under gassed guns. Those guns need work on either the gas block, the barrel (ports), or both. My point was... it's smarter to take on the problem at it's source. The biggest problem with the S-12 is NOT the irregularity and poor quality control that results in hidden or under sized ports. That's a big one, but it isn't the worst problem. The worst problem ( IF you want a military war dog of a weapon like this to wear pretty little bows in it's ears [hang a bunch of junk off it] and jump through flaming hoops while being fed cheap low grade cat food...) is the excess material it has in certain places, on certain parts, along with the crusty irregular painted finish on moving parts or the surfaces they rub against... already making it unreliable in it's basic "sporter" configuration it gets imported in. THEN you take this already poorly designed gun (for your use) and stick a PG on it, and all kinds of other parts, including some parts that clamp down on the gas tube and sometimes impede proper function... and even worse, stick a US made FCG in there with a hammer about .04" thicker on the face, than it needs to be in the S-12... What you get is a very unreliable weapon that no amount of "warranty work" is going to make run the way it really should run. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbull 3 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 OK, But, where do you go after you have had the polish and profile (Paully's Glass bolt) done, Gas ports have been re-drilled to a 5/64(4 port gun) and 300 rnds of Win. full recoil 00BUCK 9 pellet 1325 fps through it and still FTE about every 3rd round regardless of mags, drums or gas setting using an MD- adjustable gas system?? It will try to eject but just stove pipes brass side down and get pinched between the bolt and carrier and barrell. Please realize that the work that Paully did is exceptional and after the glass bolt i was atleast able to fire three rnds together wher before if it did not FTF it would FTE. i am just at the point of giving up! i have over 2G's in this thing and just becoming more and more dis-enchanted. What is the next practical place to start looking to fix the problem??? PleASE HELP!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dcgregorya 5 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 OK, But, where do you go after you have had the polish and profile (Paully's Glass bolt) done, Gas ports have been re-drilled to a 5/64(4 port gun) and 300 rnds of Win. full recoil 00BUCK 9 pellet 1325 fps through it and still FTE about every 3rd round regardless of mags, drums or gas setting using an MD- adjustable gas system?? It will try to eject but just stove pipes brass side down and get pinched between the bolt and carrier and barrell. Please realize that the work that Paully did is exceptional and after the glass bolt i was atleast able to fire three rnds together wher before if it did not FTF it would FTE. i am just at the point of giving up! i have over 2G's in this thing and just becoming more and more dis-enchanted. What is the next practical place to start looking to fix the problem??? PleASE HELP!!! What ammunition are you having FTEs on? Were you having FTE's on 00? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbull 3 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Win. 00buck, 9 pellet, 1325fps. full recoil. Yes with this ammo. Thanks!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 OK, But, where do you go after you have had the polish and profile (Paully's Glass bolt) done, Gas ports have been re-drilled to a 5/64(4 port gun) and 300 rnds of Win. full recoil 00BUCK 9 pellet 1325 fps through it and still FTE about every 3rd round regardless of mags, drums or gas setting using an MD- adjustable gas system?? It will try to eject but just stove pipes brass side down and get pinched between the bolt and carrier and barrell. Please realize that the work that Paully did is exceptional and after the glass bolt i was atleast able to fire three rnds together wher before if it did not FTF it would FTE. i am just at the point of giving up! i have over 2G's in this thing and just becoming more and more dis-enchanted. What is the next practical place to start looking to fix the problem??? PleASE HELP!!! First off, most of the people you are soliciting advice from, don't know shit about how to actually spec out a Saiga 12 shotgun. They may have built a few, but that does not make them a Pro Level Gunsmith by any means. These guns vary so much from one to another, there is no way possible to diagnose the problem over the internet. For example, your receiver may be slightly twisted, the barrel may be 2-3 degrees from where is needs to be for proper bolt timing/lockup, the rails may not be level with the trunnion block, the recoil system may be causing too much bind/friction, excessive volume between the piston and the clean out plug, and quite a few more potential problem areas. The gun operates as a system, and unless you have seen and/or built over a hundred of these guns, there is no way you can see all the problem areas that may rear their head. They are very easy to correct, but you need to know what to look for. I have been doing gun smith work for over 30 years, and I can say the Saiga 12 is the EASIEST Firearms Platform I have ever worked on. That is what makes them desirable to build from a business sense. In other words, the gun needs to be in the hands of a reputable builder to diagnose the cycling issues you are having. Stop throwing good money after bad. If you want the eye candy, build for performance and reliability first, and then go the bling route. To the trained eye, the problem will be a no brainer, but trying to do it over the forum will become an exercise in frustration, not always, but a lot of times. Regards, Jack Win. 00buck, 9 pellet, 1325fps. full recoil. Yes with this ammo. Thanks!! The gun should run like a sewing machine with that load. The system is binding somewhere. Jack 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbull 3 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 That all makes perfect since to me!! Do you take in full guns to diagnose and repair?? Please advise. Thanks Jack!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 I don't believe in soliciting work on the general forum, I believe that is what the business members sub-forum is for. I am only offering some friendly advice here. Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbull 3 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Uderstood. i will look you up there? Thank You!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Give me a call and I will try to help you get it squared away. Regards, Jack Travers JT Engineering 337 353-3534 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 OK, But, where do you go after you have had the polish and profile (Paully's Glass bolt) done, Gas ports have been re-drilled to a 5/64(4 port gun) and 300 rnds of Win. full recoil 00BUCK 9 pellet 1325 fps through it and still FTE about every 3rd round regardless of mags, drums or gas setting using an MD- adjustable gas system?? It will try to eject but just stove pipes brass side down and get pinched between the bolt and carrier and barrell. Please realize that the work that Paully did is exceptional and after the glass bolt i was atleast able to fire three rnds together wher before if it did not FTF it would FTE. i am just at the point of giving up! i have over 2G's in this thing and just becoming more and more dis-enchanted. What is the next practical place to start looking to fix the problem??? PleASE HELP!!! Do this. Remove the bolt carrier. Flip it over. Do you see a streak running down the bottom right side? If you do, then your retaining plate (if that's what you are using) is rubbing on the bottom of the bolt carrier. If that's the case, you need to remove material from the top of the retaining plate. If you don't see that, inspect the bolt carrier from top to bottom. Do you see any wear spots? IF you do, post a picture so we can have a look at it and try to offer a solution. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DLT 1,646 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 While you are at it, post a pic of a shot out hull. I'd like to see if your shells are catching on anything. I've seen issues on AR's where the chamber was causing the problems because a burr was causing the whole system to lock up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbull 3 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Actually i am using a retainer plate rather than a shepard's crook. i will take a look tonight and take some pics. i do not have any spent shells right now as i have to go to a range to shoot and do not reload so i just discard them at the range. Thank You!! J.T. I will give you a call for sure and more than likely i will be sending it to you. Thank You!! You guys are great!! This Forum has been extremely helpfull!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TORKIT 20 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 When you get done trying all that and it still stove pipes, do what I did, get 2 performance springs and replace both main springs, they're softer springs, I know what your going through I've been there, carrolina shooter supply has them for 6 bucks each, now mine is 100% reliable. One way to know for sure is put the buttstock on your hip and if it works then, well you know its a recoil issue, put softer springs in and it'll work, I've polished, ported and prayed, but the springs fixed it. GET THE SPRINGS. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbull 3 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Hey TORKIT, You know thats about the only thing that hasnt been done to this thing! I love the concept of the weapon but, damn!!! After all the time and $$$$ spent on this thing i am just at my peak frustration level!!! I will Look into the CSS Springs. Thank You for your time!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TORKIT 20 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Ya thats what I thought, I spent alot of money and time to fix such a simple thing, mine is not the only one, my best friend had the same problem, we put my spring assy in his s12 and woohoo it shot his 20 round drum mag with no stove pipes, and this was low brass, I made a recoil buffer pad out of a mouse pad its just a a 1 1/2 inch by 1 inch pad with a big hole in it, slip it over your spring at the rear where metal meets metal, or buy one for ten bucks. Changing the rear spring requires knocking a pin out and it may not be easy, mine was, my friends was a bitch. And you can always put the stiffer spring on the front if you want to run hi brass but you'll probably find it wont work without both springs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dcgregorya 5 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Win. 00buck, 9 pellet, 1325fps. full recoil. Yes with this ammo. Thanks!! Honestly, you need a gunsmith. It's not a "breaking in issue" if you can't cycle 00 buckshot. When people talk about the "standard FTE on low brass" issues with Saiga they're talking about birdshot typically, like #7 1/2. #1/00/000/slugs should never have problems. Edited October 8, 2012 by dcgregorya Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Groovy Mike 36 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Win. 00buck, 9 pellet, 1325fps. full recoil. Yes with this ammo. Thanks!! Honestly, you need a gunsmith. It's not a "breaking in issue" if you can't cycle 00 buckshot. When people talk about the "standard FTE on low brass" issues with Saiga they're talking about birdshot typically, like #7 1/2. #1/00/000/slugs should never have problems. I agree (and I'm an advocate of "break -in" ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 SPRINGS = BAND AIDS Send the gun to Jack. Like he said, it has deeper problems than you know if it won't run on 00 buck. You people who can't grasp the concept of fixing the gun itself, not trying to "fool it into working" by sticking a bunch of aftermarket parts in / on it just have no clue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbull 3 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Thanks Everyone!!! I agree obviously it is over my head so, I will be contacting Jack soon. Paully gave ma a couple of small things to look at so I will check his suggestions out 1st but even a couple of things he said to look at will require a gunsmith to actually fix!!! It's just time to stop the bleeding and start enjoying this damn thing!!! Thanks again to all!!!!!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbull 3 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) Hey Everyone, Just wanted to update the situation. i have sent the gun to Jack and it is now in route back home (Within a week and Jack has told me that she is running like a sewing machine!!!!! One of the biggest problems was my MD-arms V-plug so I am going back to the OEM 2 position gas plug per Jacks suggestion but, do not have the original plug. However thanks to a new member to the Forum (flyincedar) I am expecting one in the mail soon! I will give a range report ASAP. Once again i would like to thank everyone for your suggestions and a huge Thank You to Jack for his time and skills and Flyincedar for his generosity and help!!!! Edited November 2, 2012 by jbull Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dcgregorya 5 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Hey Everyone, Just wanted to update the situation. i have sent the gun to Jack and it is now in route back home (Within a week and Jack has told me that she is running like a sewing machine!!!!! I will give a range report ASAP. Once again i would like to thank everyone for your suggestions and a huge Thank You to Jack for his time and skills!!!! Jack is a good guy and knows his stuff. Can't wait to hear the range report . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KennyFSU 249 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Hey Everyone, Just wanted to update the situation. i have sent the gun to Jack and it is now in route back home (Within a week and Jack has told me that she is running like a sewing machine!!!!! One of the biggest problems was my MD-arms V-plug so I am going back to the OEM 2 position gas plug per Jacks suggestion but, do not have the original plug. However thanks to a new member to the Forum (flyincedar) I am expecting one in the mail soon! I will give a range report ASAP. Once again i would like to thank everyone for your suggestions and a huge Thank You to Jack for his time and skills and Flyincedar for his generosity and help!!!! Why was the V-Plug giving you issues? Was it defective? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 It was not defective, but it was partially blocking the ports in this particular situation. I put a stock plug back in, with a slight modification, and all was good. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KennyFSU 249 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Thank you. Could you expand on the "slight modification" part? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheDarkHorse 216 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Thank you. Could you expand on the "slight modification" part? Trade secret. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Thank you. Could you expand on the "slight modification" part? Yes, I could, "It is a very slight modification". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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