Teig 0 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 I've bought a Saiga 12 recently -already converted and lightly used- and no matter what I shoot out of it (tried 2.75 buckshot, birdshot, and slugs alike out of 5, 10, and 20 round mags) I get a FTE every single time. With the gas settings at #2 (even tried #1 for the hell of it) the action cycles back just fine (so I am doubting this is an issue with the gas block), however the empty shells always either stovepipe or just don't go anywhere at all. As I've heard the guns usually spew em out pretty far and this just isn't happening. Disassembling the gun and working the action manually without the recoil spring, the empty shells again just fall straight down. Admittedly I am brand new to this but it seems to me like an extractor problem. Now, this is my first Saiga 12 so I'm not entirely sure what those're supposed to look like, but I'm suspiscious that this ain't it. You guys have any thoughts or suggestions on what I can do? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 If you hand cycle it does it eject? Does it move past the hammer all the way back easily? Does it have a rubber recoil buffer at the rear of the spring? if it cycles all the way back with a pinky finger, try cleaning out the piston chamber, it will collect plastic from the wad as it passed the ports. I had problems this weekend and it was full of shavings. The piston should also just slap around in the chamber after its cleaned. You can polish the bolt carrier as well if it doesn't cycle easily by hand. you can also buy a better gas plug and piston that has 4 settings and allows more gas by. My old plug could be backed out 2 full turns to number 2 and it would cycle better as well. Did the previous owner have problems? If it hangs up on the hammer the person converting may not have shaped it like a stock one. Lots of things it could be..... keep us posted Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/17824-please-help-diagnose-a-chronic-fte-problem/ http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/33836-modification-to-repair-fte-issues-on-saigas-with-blocked-gas-ports/ try these as well Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Teig 0 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 They'll pop off the claws just fine every time either hand cranking or firing, trouble is they don't go at much of an angle. Hand cycling with all the gusto I can muster I can get them to leave the port but they only travel about two inches at most. As far as internal friction goes everything moves back very smoothly and it cycles with minimal effort. It has no recoil buffer and the piston chamber is clean as a whistle. Rides just a tad on the hammer but not enough to make cycling difficult, feels and looks just the same as my other AKs if that means anything. So in short it cycles smoothly but the shells still just kinda plop, even hard hand cycling. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Teig 0 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Actually now that I've read around a bit it seems like that hammer resistance is causing enough hang up to stop it from getting enough speed to eject hard enough. (had to use two hands but with some extra elbow grease I managed to get one to eject "normally") Hammer moves down a good fourth of an inch, I feel just polishing it wouldn't do much good and taking about 1/8 of metal from the hammer might solve the problem. What do you think? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sergii 142 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Found that either above the ejection port? Sight, red dot or something? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Teig 0 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 There's a rail on top of the dust cover but it isn't obstructing anything, has a cutout in the same dimensions as the dust cover.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sergii 142 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 This may be the reason. Larger bolt handle is also sometimes interfere. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Teig 0 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Even with the rail off it still does not improve. The bolt handle is unmodified. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Teig 0 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Some other relevant information, the gas port is a 3-hole. After complete disassembly I can easily poke a standard paperclip through each one with lots of wiggle room. I'll get around to working the hammer (it's a Tapco G2 trigger, by the way) on a grinder for about 1/8" and see how she runs after that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Don't grind your hammer! Or next you'll be about us about light strikes. Just contour the squared edges to a smooth radius. Take your dust cover off, observe where the hammer strikes the firing pin, leave that area alone.after contouring the squared edges pilotage the entire hammer face, and underside of the bolt carrier. Don't forget your rails on the gun and the slots on the sides of your carrier. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 When I did my first hammer I actually added resistance. It took my quite a while to figure out how to do it properly. Look at some of the pics of the professionally done triggers before you start. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TORKIT 20 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Have you replaced the main spring yet? CSS sells a softer performance spring for six bucks, I had to replace both main springs to make mine work great, so order 2 just in case. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Teig 0 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 I'll keep that in mind, I'll try to just soften up the edges a bit, may as well polish everything up a tad more too. While I'm at it since I haven't replaced the spring (or anything else, really) would it be worth it to just go ahead and get the reliability kit as well? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PLUMBER 6 Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 I tend to agree with torkit I was getting FTE even after polishing the bolt and rounding and polishing the hammer and carrier checking the ports and making sure it slides smooth after that I still got FTE then I changed the springs both of them I've not had a problem with it since, I also added a recoil buffer pad just to be safe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 before you go buying anything, just pull out the hammer and see if it cycles the same with out it. you shouldn't be using 2 hands to cycle it. the saiga 12 hammer is cut significantly different than the AK hammer which a tapco is. The grinding is on the back, not the striking surface, it hits on the receiver, plus teh trigger can be a problem as well, but usually not what your describing http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/33023-fcg-install-problems/page__hl__trigger+group Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) the tapco trigger group is made for an ak. the s-12 hammer has less material on the back and around the base. do not grind the striking face. Edited October 10, 2012 by utahhandyman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 ....... feels and looks just the same as my other AKs if that means anything. Try swapping the FCG with one of your AKs (if you have a FCG that's not a Tapco G2). The stock profile on the G2 is a problem, it needs to be more like the stock S-12 profile. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 finally found some pics of hammer differences 3rd post http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/73870-new-saiga-hammer-does-not-strike-firing-pin/ more info http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/5178-cobras-aks-12-conversion-details/ http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/79256-s-on-saiga-12s-and-tapco-g2-triggers/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Teig 0 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 The hammer, being the G2, does sit a lot higher yeah. It gives a significant amount of resistance where it has to be pushed down 1/4 of an inch or so when the bolt moves rearward which is why I considered grinding it down a bit. Other than that I'm noticing that a loaded mag puts up a fair bit of resistance as well so polishing the conflicting surfaces may help a bit as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 If you do it right, it will help A LOT. Take your time and read the HOW TO'S in the TECH SECTION. Don't grind on your trigger, and stay away from the reliabilty kit till you've done the proper mods. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Teig 0 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I'm having trouble finding a good reference for what a reprofiled G2 hammer should look like, after lurking the forums a bit it seems like there was one once upon a time but it was deleted? Suppose I'll just go the tiniest bit at a time and test her out in between. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Okay first up I got a side by side comparison of an UNMODIFIDED Tapco G2 next to a polished, Saiga 12 stock hammer. You'll notice that it's pretty extreme difference. But keep in mind that it doesn't require THAT MUCH off the hammer face, just the angles need to be removed. Now here is the G2 installed in my S12 you'll see the profile isn't that extreme. This is a 3 port gun .070" ports. And has no reliabilty issues, but I have completely polished the carrier and bolt. This is a picture of where the hammer strikes the pin, try not to remove too much from this area, if any at all! Edited October 10, 2012 by poolingmyignorance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 In my last post first link. There is a better pic. Did it cycle easier without the hammer in? Just noticed your top pick. That does show the difference well. Ive been searching for those old how pics from 2009 or 10. Still searching. Hard on smart phones Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Teig 0 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 That is going to help tremendously, thank you very much. And yes utah, effortlessly so. I should have all the supplies I need for polishing up the whole thing and re-profiling the hammer in a few days, wish me luck, eh? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Yes good luck. Probably why your new shotty was lightly used. After you get your trigger resolved, see if it cycles target shells. If not break it in with 200 or so 00 buck rounds and try the polishing. After that consider drilling the 4rth gas hole or the low brass reliablity kits. Mine works fine with just the plug and piston upgrades and stock springs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Try the polishing before the X-hundred rounds, thats kinda the point of doing it. Price some 220, 600 grit sand paper and a polishing wheel for your dremel with some rouge vs 200-300rnd of 12ga slugs and tell me which is cheaper. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Try the polishing before the X-hundred rounds, thats kinda the point of doing it. Price some 220, 600 grit sand paper and a polishing wheel for your dremel with some rouge vs 200-300rnd of 12ga slugs and tell me which is cheaper. the point is seeing what functions and what doesnt, these things have to be broken in Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) No Sir. What exactly is it that you think"breaking in" does? It hones moving parts via friction of the action. That is all. This can be supplemented by virtually working the Acton manually as well. Professional builders guaranty their guns run new out the fruit with no breaking in. How? By refining the action.Most reprofile, and some even do a nickle coating. Hundreds of rounds are not necessary to make your gun function properly. If you can get a few factory mags to cycle low brass from the hip, your gun works fine. (assuming you don't have am over gas issue) but that's another topic. Edited October 10, 2012 by poolingmyignorance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WingedOne 14 Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 If you have a retaining plate make sure it isn't dragging on the carrier. I had to shave a bit off the top near where the safety passes through. Don't know if it applies to you but? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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