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Is the AK platform the best to have here in the USA?


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The AR, you need the right kind of aluminum alloy for the receivers.

 

Actually, mine is made from plastic, and people have built wooden ones as well. As CNC machines become more popular, they are getting easier and easier.

 

IMO go to the sporting goods stores and take a survay of the most common ammo you can find and get the gun AK or other that uses it where ever you plan on being when the SHTF. Fair enough? This is'nt a country where every other 9yr old carries an Ak after all.

 

Im getting a .22!

 

I'm just talking from an in general standpoint. Yes I'm aware of the polymer ones and the wood one. I would not trust my life to a wood lower though. Things happen and stuff gets out of tolerances when wood warps. As for the polymer ones, you have to find the right polymer to use too, or find a way to make the right polymer. Not trying to be mean just trying to look at it right.

 

And yes CNC machines are getting easier to find.

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I'm going to agree with Pauly on this one. Marines ARE allowed to qualify with an ACOG. While I was in the regular army(the time before reddot sights) we trained and qualified with irons. When I went into the SPECOPS community we went to the Eotech and after a couple years we were allowed to qualify with them. Hitting a target at distance with an optic should not be an issue and if it is then your fundamentals need work. Now as for me I'll use my optic but I will have a set of irons for when the optic either fails or if the target is too close.

Everyone in the Military that are carrying a mounted optic HAS to qualify with it or they have to run iron sights. Thing is, you have to qualify on the irons in a different course of fire first to get the weapon issued to you, then run the optic on another course of fire to be able to run said optic whether a RDS or ACOG. This not only ensures the shooter can do the job, but ensures the irons and optic are zeroed and function so they too can do the job. Guys that are on the "pointy end of the spear" shoot a lot regardless of branch of service. Someone in the Military who doesn't shoot a lot normally is probably confined to a FOB while deployed anyway. I find it hard to believe someone who has deployed recently would claim to have trained with only 30 rounds. (Maybe Iraq in the early years). Pre-mobility training involves a shit load of shooting and re-qualifying on weapons. Everyone regardless of Military specialty goes through it before deploying and for some, it is more shooting in a few weeks than they have done in their whole Military career.

 

Ask your son what he's using when he gets "on line" and what hes allowed to qualify with.

I will. He starts Green Platoon on the 29th. 011.gif

He spent a shitload of time on the ranges during BCT BTW. More than I did when I was in the same situation.

 

Sorry for the threadjack. hijacked.gif

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I would choose the AK, because the reliability and variation in calibers. AR uppers are a bitch to get cheap and depending on what caliber you go for you may need a different lower (ie. 308). Now I can have a Saiga in 308, my 'rinco in x39 and my AR in 5.56 and be covered in all surplus calibers I would find in the USA, and if I wanted to acquire 2 more Saigas in 5.45 and 5.56 I could do so for the price it would cost me to get a new upper for the AR. Mags may be more of an issue working that way, but mag set-ups for any AR or AK variant will be difficult to find and should be prepared prior to the SHTF situation (LR-308 mags and Saiga 308 mags being hard to come by as an example). I own both platforms but I find the AK more fun, YMMV

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One potential weakness that I see in our preferred system is corrosion resistance. I've often wondered just how long a stamped steel rifle will endure in moist environments. I know that the AR with it's aluminum parts SHOULD endure better in this type of environment. But overall ruggedness is won hands down by the AK as is the intimidation factor.

 

I think that is cogent. There are an enourmous number of AKs in the world partly because they are disposable. When they are worn out and crappy, militaries sell them off to someone who can't afford to be picky. It is absurd to think they are all in usable condition still just because they are manufactured. I remember recently seeing where a deposed government had stashed their weapons, and they were all a stack of rust. Most of them were AKs and SKSs. My recollection was Philipines, Malaysia or Indonesia but the point is that the steamy climate killed them in about 20 years without cosmolene or cleaning. Corrosion is the only reason we don't use Kalashnikovs as boat guns. Sadly this includes the S12. We don't have an AR either, but in some environments such as marine use, I would rather have a stainless mini 14 or mini 30 than either AK or AR. I like either AKs or ARs better, but there are places where neither can survive.

 

While I am probably stupid to get into another one of these threads, the thing that continually occurs to me is that the lines between platforms has gotten blurry.

Everything is trending towards better build quality. and QC, increased modularity, Picatinny rails are standard on modern AKs too. ARs are often piston driven now.

Everything can and should have optics of one sort or another.

 

Really I have to echo that whatever made up scenario you want, what matters most is you. If you know how to use what you have, it will do the job. I am not really big on preparing for the doomsday, but I do believe in stockpiling ammo when it's cheap if you have the money. Not for end of the world, just for good budgeting. I also want the ability to do an inexpensive caliber swap, and AKs are behind here. I kinda think the next generation of AKs that are adopted by a military en masse will have the ability to hot swap barrels and bolt faces to switch calibers. They might be bullpup too. Short is sweet.

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The AK reliability vs the AR UN reliability is very exaggerated. People assume that an AR is an AR and thats that when thats really not the case. When you get companies that cut corners to save a buck you will get an un reliable AR. Using softer, cheaper metal on extractors, in some cases plastic parts, not proper staking, over gassing the rifle and many other cost cutting measures will get you a sub par AR. This is why companies like Larue, Knights, LMWS, Noveske, Colt, DD and a few others cost more. Because there is less cost cutting and the stick to the military blueprint for building an AR. In reality a properly built AR will run and run. Their weakest link tends to be the mags and it seems that MagPul has solved that problem.

 

Same with the AK. Everyone assumes they are tough as nails and un breakable. BS! They have to be built right, including the use of proper steel, to be un breakable. This is why you dont see any 100% made in the USA AKs. Labor and material costs money. I guarantee that if Bushmaster was to make an AK the first thing they'd look at is where can we cut corners. What type of steel is "good enough" for part A or part B because the avg civilian user is going to put maybe a thousand rounds a year out of it. Exactly what you see happening with Century built AKs/Galils. Anyone remember the fiasco with the Golani's when they first hit the market? Poorly heat treated receivers, improper bullet guides made out of brittle metal, wrong barrel twists. Then there was the Century Tantals and Bulgy 74s.This time good receivers but still improper barrels. Lets not even mention Promag and Tapco. Sometimes a buyer lucks out and their budget rifle built on substandard parts works but usually there is some sort of compromise. You get what you pay for. Often times people will pick a small problem with a specific platform, blow it out of proportion and make it seem like this is some sort of major defect that only the have discovered. Like the steel cased ammo and ARs. If your extractor broke on steel casing its not the casing it was a faulty or cheaply made extractor. Just recently I was doing research on a 1911. I stopped at a few $1000-$1500 ones. One of these being a S&W E series with the external extractor. Seems that S&W are about the only ones that got that to work right. As I asked around about it one guy told me it was basically crap because the external extractor needs more tools to take apart and clean. His example was "that if you were to ever drop it into salt water you'd need to clean everything". I responded that I live 2 hours from the nearest ocean and they are located in states where I cant carry anyways. Besides I would not be carrying a 1911 at the beach. And plenty of people in the US dont live anywhere near the ocean. He still stuck to his salt water problem.

 

-IMO a quality built rifle, AK or AR, will serve it user well. Both platforms have +/- the user has to figure out what they want out of it. The AR is very modular plug and play type rifle but for me all I want is a red dot or a scout scope which I can easily install on any AR or AK.

 

-The AK is less accurate the the AR but thats not exactly correct either. A lot of the AR accuracy has to do with bullet selection. There is a lot more quality, match ammo in 5.56/223 then in x39. The military manual call for the AR to be a 4moa rifle with the ammo that is supplied. And it is. Maybe slightly better but basically on par with the AK. Now you start changing barrel twist (military is only 1/7) and bullets and then you have yourself a more accurate gun. But even that isnt completely true. It might be more accurate on a nice suny day, sitting at the table, you're rifle perfectly benched, taking your time shooting. Now run a block and shoot try to shoot the same groups while benched. Walk a block and shoot off hand.

 

- Parts availability. AR and AK are probably the most common "black/evil" rifles out there. Every gun store I know of carries 556 and x39. Its true not everyone carries 545. Mags are everywhere and so is ammo.

 

I own 4 qulality AKs and 1 Colt AR. I both platforms equaly and wont hesitate to use either as my go to rifle

Buy quality, buy once cry once and you'll be good to go.

Edited by Arik
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+1 to what Arik said. My go to gun will always be an AR as I can run it faster because of the muscle memory I developed running it for many moons in the Military. I would only resort to an AK if the situation presented itself that would prohibit any cleaning or lubing. The AR will run fine dirty as long as lubed generously. No lube presents problems. The Dirkas and Hadjis are running dirty AKs dry of lube and they keep on ticking. Another couple of dependable battle rifles are the CETME and FAL not to mention the M1A.

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The AK reliability vs the AR UN reliability is very exaggerated. People assume that an AR is an AR and thats that when thats really not the case. When you get companies that cut corners to save a buck you will get an un reliable AR. Using softer, cheaper metal on extractors, in some cases plastic parts, not proper staking, over gassing the rifle and many other cost cutting measures will get you a sub par AR. This is why companies like Larue, Knights, LMWS, Novske, Colt, DD and a few others cost more. Because there is less cost cutting and the stick to the military blueprint for building an AR. In reality a properly built AR will run and run. Their weakest link tends to be the mags and it seems that MagPul has solved that problem.

 

But even that isnt completely true. It might be more accurate on a nice suny day, sitting at the table, you're rifle perfectly benched, taking your time shooting. Now run a block and shoot try to shoot the same groups while benched. Walk a block and shoot off hand.

 

I own 4 qulality AKs and 1 Colt AR. I both platforms equaly and wont hesitate to use either as my go to rifle

Buy quality, buy once cry once and you'll be good to go.

 

Ya I'm still waiting to hear what parts just up and wear out? I've never had a part wear out aside from my first AR I shot out the barrel (took 15 years and ass tons of shooting).

 

I know the bcg will go eventually.

 

I also looked around for plastic on my Daniel Defense, tore the entire gun down, my MOE stock, a small piece of urethane on the buffer, and the magpul rail protectors. I thought the saftey lever was plastic, nope it's not. OH my mags are Pmags. *shrug*

 

+1 to what Arik said. My go to gun will always be an AR as I can run it faster because of the muscle memory I developed running it for many moons in the Military. I would only resort to an AK if the situation presented itself that would prohibit any cleaning or lubing. The AR will run fine dirty as long as lubed generously. No lube presents problems. The Dirkas and Hadjis are running dirty AKs dry of lube and they keep on ticking. Another couple of dependable battle rifles are the CETME and FAL not to mention the M1A.

 

Ya I have my M1A and wouldn't trade it for 4 ARs, AKs, etc.

 

I still want an FAL, parts kits are so damn $$$ now

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I dont have any experience with a CETME/G3/PTR or the M1A but I do own a IMBEL FAL. I find that the FAL has one major disadvantage when it comes to civilian shooter. As a civilian Im limited to the ammo thats on the market at the moment and how much I can buy. Surplus ammo varies in powder and bullet weight from country to country and they dont all come here at the same time. For instance, I buy whats available and whats on SALE!! SO I have a plethora of surplus x51 because I buy a little over time. I have close to a thousand in Radway Green, maybe 400 in SA, 500 in Paki, 200 PPU white box, 200 German, some commercial and some Australian. The weakest part of the FAL (again for me) is the manual adjusting gas valve. I set it to one type of ammo and shoot and shoot and shoot. As soon as I switch to a different brand I sometimes have to sit and waste ammo just to re adjust the gas valve because it stopped cycling or is not cycling too hard. This is more of a pain in the ass then anything. A military is supplied by one type of ammo and once the gas valve is set you can basically forget about it. Plus the ammo is FREE!

Edited by Arik
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Arik, I agree with you man. People blow both of them out of proportion in terms of accuracy and reliability. And you do get what you pay for in both platforms. A lot of it comes back to the end user. If they do their part, the weapon should do its part.

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Also, your particular environment can help determine what you use. Whether you will be hunting with it as well, or strictly defensive use. If I were out in the sticks, I think I would go with my AR due to a more accurate at distance rifle..For ME. I have my AR dialed in to an acceptable 3" group at 300 yds and my hunting ammo is more accurate than the ammo I have for my AK. I can get good hunting groups out to maybe 150yds with the AK. The extra reach can make a big difference when hunting. Although a .223 is not much for an Elk unless I get a good head/neck shot.

If I were in an urban environment, and using it mostly for defensive reasons, I would likely choose my AK.

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I have a saiga 7.62 and a AR 5.56 and love them both. They have both never malfunctioned. I usually clean them both every 300 to 500 rnds so I can't say which of mine is the most reliable. The AR gets a bad rap as a "maintenance whore" and I think its not true. Swat magazine recently finished a test where they fired 32,000 rnds through a Bravo Company AR with no malfunctions. They never cleaned the gun. They just lubed it with Slip 2000 EWL whenever they tested it. I love my AK and would trust my life with it. But I think this and other recent test prove the newer AR's (not the vietnam era ones) are pretty tough as well. I will admit though that if I was put into a situation with no cleaning kit or lube I would rather have my AK. I cant say which of these platforms is best in the USA. But I would stock up on ammo and mags for whatever you have NOW.

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The "unreliable" ARs are usually home-built from poor quality parts, sometimes not even dimensionally compatible.

 

The "inaccurate" AKs are either shot-out rifles in a far away third-world country that the person has only ever seen or heard of on TV, or shot-out kit builds in the USA.

 

Both rifles will hit a man-sized target within the same general ranges for the average shooter, and both when made correctly will continue functioning with minimal field maintenance.

 

AKs have been as extremely popular as ARs have been ever since the AWB went away, and even more so in the last couple of years. Although ARs are more widely owned, you'd probably never have a problem finding spare parts, magazines, or ammo for an AK. Like I said earlier, if you're in a situation where you find yourself needing parts and magazines for your rifle as a matter of life or death, IN AMERICA no less, you're already in a fucked up situation that you may never find yourself getting out of.

 

The whole thing is done to death.

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Why do folks eliminate the ever popular bolt action hunting rifle as an option in these questions? If you aren't in an urban setting, it can be quite easy and efficient to use your trusty ol deer rifle......You can get food and, if you have room around you, you can keep Bad folks beyond the effective range of their Modern Sporting Rifles. If you Really do have a bunch of hoodlums aproaching, and one of them are hit @ twice the distance they can shoot, they would probably keep away.

Your own ingenuity and simple survival skills will most likely keep you alive longer than a gun.

 

edit: even with panic buying, there is not a tiny-town gas station or grocery store that does not have a pile of 30-06 ammo for sale.....the shits everywhere! Plus, you have only the bolt to remove for cleaning.

Edited by RobRez
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I have one of each, plus a couple of 12GA shottys and a couple of .22's. My AR is a home-built lower on a Palmetto upper. Oldest likes it, and can lay down half-dollar size groups compensating for my settings. I can keep my AK minute of man all day long, and lay down 2" groups with cheapo ammo if I do my part.

 

In my mind, mission dictates equipment. If it's Sarajevo in my town, then I grab the AK and wife(ex Air Force) or oldest(Army Reserve) grabs the AR. If I need to reach out and touch someone, I grab the oldest's Stevens .308.

 

As far as the AK platform, show me a rifle you can do this with.

 

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Ya I have my M1A and wouldn't trade it for 4 ARs, AKs, etc.

 

I hear that alot, and its a nice rifle, just weighs as much as 4 ARs, AKs, etc.

 

Id probably carry the AR until it wore out, because its lighter, than switch to the Saiga. Tho, plenty of people in the field have said that ARs work great, they just need a little lube.

 

I still wanna get a Ruger Takedown, plenty of support as the best overall survival tool.

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Ya I have my M1A and wouldn't trade it for 4 ARs, AKs, etc.

 

I hear that alot, and its a nice rifle, just weighs as much as 4 ARs, AKs, etc.

 

Id probably carry the AR until it wore out, because its lighter, than switch to the Saiga. Tho, plenty of people in the field have said that ARs work great, they just need a little lube.

 

I still wanna get a Ruger Takedown, plenty of support as the best overall survival tool.

 

Ha ya it's stout, but damn I shoot great with it and it just delivers, only problem I have ever had with it was a shitty 30 rd ebay mag.

 

I say that about my M1A, but now that I've sold off my rag tag ARs (one a modded/kitted S&W and one a mix and match cheap as I could home build, both were fine, but I saw the oppurtunity to upgrade) for my Daniel Defense, I would take it anywhere, and my abuse tests haven't shown me why I shouldn't.

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AK101/Saiga .223 anyone? I figure it's the best of both worlds, the reliability of the AK yet will shoot .223/5.56 in SHTF situations... That's why I bought one. Now I am just debating putting a magwell on it so I can run those AR mags in those situations

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I actually like BOTH platforms, although I view them as for differing purposes. The AK, as we all know, is less accurate. It's also, as we all know, more reliable under adverse conditions. This is where the AR crowd gets it's feathers ruffled and yells "but there's been AR's run for thousands of rounds without cleaning!". Umm... true. BUT (a HUGE but) they are FREQUENTLY lubed throughout those tests. Show me a gun that WON'T work if you kept dumping CLP (solvent/lube) in it??? That's like having a motor that burns oil and saying "this motor ran for 50 thousand miles without an oil change!"... as you keep dumping fresh oil into it to keep it running. Any motor would do that, an ANY rifle would do a few thousand rounds if kept throwing CLP in it. Those "tests" are useless.

The point is.. if you are sol with only your rifle and a few mags (and not a supply train of parts and lube)... try and tell me that an AR would be better than an AK?

Now an AR IS a beatifully engineered rifle. It is super light, simple, accurate, low recoil, etc. But they DO require maintenance (and yes.. dumping CLP in it every few hundred rounds IS maintenance). I look at the AR as a very lightweight, handy, target/varmint/range rifle. Where as I look at the AK as a crude, takes abuse, brute with FAR less accuracy.

In a SHTF senerio... I may actually prefer the AR first (while there's supplies and time to maintain, or at least keep the action lubed) for it's lightweight, manuverability, accuracy, and commonality. But as time goes on, I'd want the AK for it's ruggedness and easy repairability (except for barrel replacement).

As the two are being used currently is as they are designed to. The AK is for the "lone wolf" with little to no support or supplies. The AR is for a well supplied military who can spend the time to clean and maintain it. They each are superior in their used role.

Just my opinion.

Edited by Brian M1
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they are FREQUENTLY lubed throughout those tests. Show me a gun that WON'T work if you kept dumping CLP (solvent/lube) in it??? That's like having a motor that burns oil and saying "this motor ran for 50 thousand miles without an oil change!"... as you keep dumping fresh oil into it to keep it running. Any motor would do that, an ANY rifle would do a few thousand rounds if kept throwing CLP in it. Those "tests" are useless.

The point is.. if you are sol with only your rifle and a few mags (and not a supply train of parts and lube)... try and tell me that an AR would be better than an AK?

Now an AR IS a beatifully engineered rifle. It is super light, simple, accurate, low recoil, etc. But they DO require maintenance (and yes.. dumping CLP in it every few hundred rounds IS maintenance). I look at the AR as a very lightweight, handy, target/varmint/range rifle. Where as I look at the AK as a crude, takes abuse, brute with FAR less accuracy.

 

Im a big AK guy but thats not really acurate. A well built AR and by this I mean its not a home made or outsourced through Century or just cranked out in large numbers using sub par parts. Will run fairly dry. A guy I know has a Bushy with Colt internals. Hasnt been cleaned since it left the factory about 10 years ago. Has roughly 30k rounds by his estimation. Once you open the rifle you'd agree too that if not 30K then close to it. He runs mainly wolf. It has not skipped a beat. This doesnt mean that all ARs would but they dont need to be as wet as everyone thinks. And in a SHTF scenerio you dont need CLP or HOPES9 or whatever. Pop open a car hood. Between the engine oil, trans fluid and power steering/breaks you'll have enough lubrication for a platoon.

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I did that once at the range. Showed up and didn't want to shoot one of my AKs and SKS totally dry. Popped the hood and used the dipstick to pull out a few fingerfuls of hot oil, slabbed it on, and went to town. Granted this would work fine on just about any non-shit gun.

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I've actually been using Mobile1 Synthetic to lube my AR lately. Doesn't stink as bad as CLP, and doesn't cook off near as fast as CLP. Son told me that in BASIC they were using pretty much anything and everything to lube theirs. I jokingly said bacon grease, and he said they did use cooking oil on a M249. haha.gif

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Our military people are better trained marksmen with iron or glass and armed with weapons that are better than their enemy carry. As far as defeating the foreign enemy that’s done in a matter of days when they are left to it. Problem comes from the domestic enemy that we elected, they want our dogs of war to fight wearing a choke collar. The law should be if you point the military at a problem give them what they want to fix the problem and shut the fuck up. You can fight a war or practice worldwide public relations but not both. Only a fucktard thinks some raghead with a AK is a military warrior, these are the shitheads that shoot unarmed 15 year old girls out of fear.

 

So back to the questions of best platform and how many it takes to screw in a light bulb? The answers are AR and get candles because if you’ve got to use the AR the powers out anyway.

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Our military people are better trained marksmen with iron or glass and armed with weapons that are better than their enemy carry. As far as defeating the foreign enemy that’s done in a matter of days when they are left to it. Problem comes from the domestic enemy that we elected, they want our dogs of war to fight wearing a choke collar. The law should be if you point the military at a problem give them what they want to fix the problem and shut the fuck up. You can fight a war or practice worldwide public relations but not both. Only a fucktard thinks some raghead with a AK is a military warrior, these are the shitheads that shoot unarmed 15 year old girls out of fear.

 

 

So back to the questions of best platform and how many it takes to screw in a light bulb? The answers are AR and get candles because if you’ve got to use the AR the powers out anyway.

 

I agree on your comment regarding our current enemy, but not if it's in reference to say the Russians or Chinese.

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they are FREQUENTLY lubed throughout those tests. Show me a gun that WON'T work if you kept dumping CLP (solvent/lube) in it??? That's like having a motor that burns oil and saying "this motor ran for 50 thousand miles without an oil change!"... as you keep dumping fresh oil into it to keep it running. Any motor would do that, an ANY rifle would do a few thousand rounds if kept throwing CLP in it. Those "tests" are useless.

The point is.. if you are sol with only your rifle and a few mags (and not a supply train of parts and lube)... try and tell me that an AR would be better than an AK?

Now an AR IS a beatifully engineered rifle. It is super light, simple, accurate, low recoil, etc. But they DO require maintenance (and yes.. dumping CLP in it every few hundred rounds IS maintenance). I look at the AR as a very lightweight, handy, target/varmint/range rifle. Where as I look at the AK as a crude, takes abuse, brute with FAR less accuracy.

 

Im a big AK guy but thats not really acurate. A well built AR and by this I mean its not a home made or outsourced through Century or just cranked out in large numbers using sub par parts. Will run fairly dry. A guy I know has a Bushy with Colt internals. Hasnt been cleaned since it left the factory about 10 years ago. Has roughly 30k rounds by his estimation. Once you open the rifle you'd agree too that if not 30K then close to it. He runs mainly wolf. It has not skipped a beat. This doesnt mean that all ARs would but they dont need to be as wet as everyone thinks. And in a SHTF scenerio you dont need CLP or HOPES9 or whatever. Pop open a car hood. Between the engine oil, trans fluid and power steering/breaks you'll have enough lubrication for a platoon.

I run Militec-1 in my firearms which actually is absorbed into the pores of the metal and treats it giving it a self lubricating property and prevents carbon buildup. My ARs are not dripping wet with CLP and I don't clean them that often because they are not seeing the same conditions as my duty weapon did in the Military. Usually they get a quick wipe down with a rag and a boresnake pulled through the barrel and that's it. If I were out literally rolling around in the dirt and dust and have zero time to break it down and clean it, I may wet the bolt down with a couple drops of lube to help it out. If an AR fails to run because it has accumulated a bunch of crap in the action, wetting it down will usually get it running again without having to clean it properly. Remember the old Military school of thought was to run them dry in the desert as lube attracts dirt, and wet in wet or humid climates mainly for corrosion control.

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