Saiga 12 slug choke

[woodzie65 3]

Wondering if anyone knows were I can get or who has the saiga 12 choke that is rifled for slugs, I thought Tromix made them but doesn't anymore. Has anyone used this choke and is it worth finding one.I would like to hunt with my saiga 12 thinking the rifle choke would give me more distance.

[gunfun 3,931]

This: S-12 Winchoke Adapters - Cobra's Custom - forum.Saiga-12.com

 

Plus This: https://www.google.com/search?q=winchoke+rifled+choke&oq=winchoke+rifled+choke&sugexp=chrome,mod=0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Lots of choices available and you can get some handy chokes while you are at it.

 

For instance Hastings current model is 8" with a 1 in 34 twist. You would chose the "Winchester/Invector" style.

 

Or you can try to get an imported Russian one that screws on directly. Those are hard to find in the USA and quite expensive. I think they had a 6" and a 10" model, but don't hold me to the lengths.

[kindapointless 22]

The actual saiga one is about 130 dollars. What are you trying to shoot out of it slug wise? If u have a slug in mind i can tell u what type of choke you want for all are not created equal. Slug speed and wieght will depend on twist rate. Also full bore or sabot? Brenkee, foster or sauvette? (yes i am back with the super slug project)

[saltydecimator 482]

lolz kinda pointless, how bout for the 680 lee slugs?

[kindapointless 22]

What speed? If slow >1200 fps 1 in 36 to 1 in 32. 1200 to 1700 u need a lil faster like 1 in 28. American slug shooting society has a nifty lil faq on it.

[woodzie65 3]

Thanks for the info GunFUn. Kindapointless honestly i have no idea,I just decided that i would like to hunt with my 12 because we have a separate season for shotgun ,And this would give me more hunting time,I thought i just needed to get the rifle choke.But let me tell you what i would like to do. I would like to be able to shoot 100 yards as i don't normally shoot farther then that with my rifle, Minnesota has lots of woods so a round that will go threw small limbs and brush so what ever you think would be great to get me in the right direction. thank you

[HART1 92]

Thanks for the info GunFUn. Kindapointless honestly i have no idea,I just decided that i would like to hunt with my 12 because we have a separate season for shotgun ,And this would give me more hunting time,I thought i just needed to get the rifle choke.But let me tell you what i would like to do. I would like to be able to shoot 100 yards as i don't normally shoot farther then that with my rifle, Minnesota has lots of woods so a round that will go threw small limbs and brush so what ever you think would be great to get me in the right direction. thank you

 

I'd like to do the same thing. What's the BEST ammo/choke combination for, let's say 100 yards?

[kindapointless 22]

Cheapest ones you can find and practice alot truth be told. Improved cylinder and brenkee are what mine likes. If u want a rifled tube setup its going to cost more for choke setup and more per shot for slugs. When ur going past 100 is where rifled shines. Well it will always be better but 2 inch smooth bore groups i consider acceptable for deer. My super slug gun can cloverleaf at 150 but that took awhile to find right load. Best bet is go buy two boxes of everthing and try them. Check out the american slug shooting foundation for tips then get out and practice.

[shoot2thrillu 10]

any slugs your gonna buy at the store for your shotgun will most likely be rifled slugs. so having a rifled choke is a waste. i got the poly choke 2 on my saiga and i love that thing. screw it on tight and it can be adjusted with a twist. it has a slug setting ment for slugs on it. or you can twist it again to shoot doves or clays. or go to a open bore setting with another twist for home defense.

 

im very satisfied with the poly choke for a couple reasons. one i dont need to take chokes off to change. just twist till it hits the detent.

 

cost. for everything that little thing does the price is superb.

and it also has a muzzle break on it with door breacher. i did notice a difference with recoil with it on vs with off

[HART1 92]

Cheapest ones you can find and practice alot truth be told. Improved cylinder and brenkee are what mine likes. If u want a rifled tube setup its going to cost more for choke setup and more per shot for slugs. When ur going past 100 is where rifled shines. Well it will always be better but 2 inch smooth bore groups i consider acceptable for deer. My super slug gun can cloverleaf at 150 but that took awhile to find right load. Best bet is go buy two boxes of everthing and try them. Check out the american slug shooting foundation for tips then get out and practice.

 

Hmmm? Tell me more about these 150 yard shots.

Heck, tell me what to buy! Choke and ammo info please, even if you feel more comforable sending it to me in a P.M.

This is what I'm shooting. It's setup for Turkey right now, with Carlson long range choke and a 2-7x32 Nkon shotgun scope.

[kindapointless 22]

The 150 yard shots are coming out of a fully rifled rem 870 super slug gun with a 3x9 nikon bdc scope. Its a completly different animal then my s12. Im working on trying to get good groups out of my current s12. Out of the 5 i have had all liked different slugs and one could stick them in the same ragged hole at 100 yards while the one now the best i can get is 2 inch groups. If you want 150 its gonna cost, 8 inch hastings tube or a nice custom fast twist one with some nice handloads. Or call century and get some sauvette ammo. Problem is qc on these guns and off the self ammo. Start by slugging your barrel and we will go from there. I have measured barrels on these from 728 to 732. Find out what yours is.

[gunfun 3,931]

any slugs your gonna buy at the store for your shotgun will most likely be rifled slugs. so having a rifled choke is a waste. i got the poly choke 2 on my saiga and i love that thing. screw it on tight and it can be adjusted with a twist. it has a slug setting ment for slugs on it. or you can twist it again to shoot doves or clays. or go to a open bore setting with another twist for home defense.

 

im very satisfied with the poly choke for a couple reasons. one i dont need to take chokes off to change. just twist till it hits the detent.

 

cost. for everything that little thing does the price is superb.

and it also has a muzzle break on it with door breacher. i did notice a difference with recoil with it on vs with off

 

Everything I have ever read where people did testing, even "rifled" fosters performed better when fired through a rifled choke.

[HART1 92]

The 150 yard shots are coming out of a fully rifled rem 870 super slug gun with a 3x9 nikon bdc scope. Its a completly different animal then my s12. Im working on trying to get good groups out of my current s12. Out of the 5 i have had all liked different slugs and one could stick them in the same ragged hole at 100 yards while the one now the best i can get is 2 inch groups. If you want 150 its gonna cost, 8 inch hastings tube or a nice custom fast twist one with some nice handloads. Or call century and get some sauvette ammo. Problem is qc on these guns and off the self ammo. Start by slugging your barrel and we will go from there. I have measured barrels on these from 728 to 732. Find out what yours is.

 

My batteries are going dead and it's starting to blink, but I came up with 727

Looked at that Hastings rifled choke for $75. If it's top quality product, I don't have a problem paying that for it.

I've used there rifled 870 cantilever barrel in the past and really liked them. Best deer combo I ever had.

[kindapointless 22]

Hastings is a 1 in 36 choke which is good for traditioal slugs. Not so good for the fast sabots like sst. Try for some slugs around 1500 fps to give you that little extra range without quite so much drop. Its still going to be trial and error on which slugs will be best. Yes even fosters will be better out of a rifled choke. I would still jam a piece of lead down the barrel and measure it to find bore size. Some of the better slugs have minimum bore requirements. In essence you are making a big rifle so you must treat it as such. Bore size, bullet lead, proper selection of projectile to twist rate just like building a rifle. If you hand load you can do even better cause the best rifles are not the greatest rifles without handloads. Also makes shooting more affordable or allows you to shoot more.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

any slugs your gonna buy at the store for your shotgun will most likely be rifled slugs. so having a rifled choke is a waste. i got the poly choke 2 on my saiga and i love that thing. screw it on tight and it can be adjusted with a twist. it has a slug setting ment for slugs on it. or you can twist it again to shoot doves or clays. or go to a open bore setting with another twist for home defense.

 

im very satisfied with the poly choke for a couple reasons. one i dont need to take chokes off to change. just twist till it hits the detent.

 

cost. for everything that little thing does the price is superb.

and it also has a muzzle break on it with door breacher. i did notice a difference with recoil with it on vs with off

 

I'm sorry but I have to correct you here bro.

Those so called "rifled slugs" actually have nothing at all to do with real rifling. They do not leave the shot cup and suddenly take on a spinning flight from just cutting through air. This is one of the biggest fallacies about slug shooting. Those raised ribs or spiral cuts on the naked slug are not there for that purpose, and it would take much more than that to impart a spin that makes a real difference. In order to make a slug spin like a bullet, it must be fired either from a rifled barrel, or pass from a smooth bore through a rifled choke tube. And even then the regular foster slugs don't really come anywhere close to the accuracy and distance of a sabot slug. The sabot rounds take the rifling much better and spin much faster. I've shot the Remy Sluggers and Brenneke slugs through my Russian Paradox choke and noted the performance. After the first shot the soft lead of the "rifled" slugs fouls the rifling in the choke so bad it can't possibly do much better than a smooth bore or Modified choke with those slugs. May as well be shooting pumkinballs. The rifled slug choke is designed to be used mainly with sabot slugs. You can get them with actual copper jackets. These perform the best. I also have some really hard slugs designed for LEO and Military use that will pass through an engine block. These will work in the rifled choke. I have the Russian Paradox but also get good results from rifled winchoke tubes and my choke adapter like GunFun mentioned. The info about the sabot and the Paradox I first read on a Russian site.

The reason those 'rifled slugs' have the spiral ribs on them is really to provide a better seal for the gasses while it's passing through the smooth bore barrel. It expands from the hollow base and swages down the barrel, sealing the gasses and aiding in retaining the full force of the blast til it exits the barrel. If shot through a rifled choke, instead of a fully rifled barrel, it may take some spin, but most of it is lost as the rifling cuts shaves those ribs right off the slug while it's passing through. I have been wanting to do a controlled test comparison using a Saiga 12 strapped to a lead sled, with and without the choke adapter / rifled winchoke, and compare results with the Paradox, using sabots vs. fosters. One day I'll get around to it...

[gunfun 3,931]

That's what I have been saying for a couple years. I have some slugs to reload, so I may get to it soon.

[HART1 92]

any slugs your gonna buy at the store for your shotgun will most likely be rifled slugs. so having a rifled choke is a waste. i got the poly choke 2 on my saiga and i love that thing. screw it on tight and it can be adjusted with a twist. it has a slug setting ment for slugs on it. or you can twist it again to shoot doves or clays. or go to a open bore setting with another twist for home defense.

 

im very satisfied with the poly choke for a couple reasons. one i dont need to take chokes off to change. just twist till it hits the detent.

 

cost. for everything that little thing does the price is superb.

and it also has a muzzle break on it with door breacher. i did notice a difference with recoil with it on vs with off

 

I'm sorry but I have to correct you here bro.

Those so called "rifled slugs" actually have nothing at all to do with real rifling. They do not leave the shot cup and suddenly take on a spinning flight from just cutting through air. This is one of the biggest fallacies about slug shooting. Those raised ribs or spiral cuts on the naked slug are not there for that purpose, and it would take much more than that to impart a spin that makes a real difference. In order to make a slug spin like a bullet, it must be fired either from a rifled barrel, or pass from a smooth bore through a rifled choke tube. And even then the regular foster slugs don't really come anywhere close to the accuracy and distance of a sabot slug. The sabot rounds take the rifling much better and spin much faster. I've shot the Remy Sluggers and Brenneke slugs through my Russian Paradox choke and noted the performance. After the first shot the soft lead of the "rifled" slugs fouls the rifling in the choke so bad it can't possibly do much better than a smooth bore or Modified choke with those slugs. May as well be shooting pumkinballs. The rifled slug choke is designed to be used mainly with sabot slugs. You can get them with actual copper jackets. These perform the best. I also have some really hard slugs designed for LEO and Military use that will pass through an engine block. These will work in the rifled choke. I have the Russian Paradox but also get good results from rifled winchoke tubes and my choke adapter like GunFun mentioned. The info about the sabot and the Paradox I first read on a Russian site.

The reason those 'rifled slugs' have the spiral ribs on them is really to provide a better seal for the gasses while it's passing through the smooth bore barrel. It expands from the hollow base and swages down the barrel, sealing the gasses and aiding in retaining the full force of the blast til it exits the barrel. If shot through a rifled choke, instead of a fully rifled barrel, it may take some spin, but most of it is lost as the rifling cuts shaves those ribs right off the slug while it's passing through. I have been wanting to do a controlled test comparison using a Saiga 12 strapped to a lead sled, with and without the choke adapter / rifled winchoke, and compare results with the Paradox, using sabots vs. fosters. One day I'll get around to it...

 

Hmmm? That's what I thought, but hadn't considered the riflings on the choke tube shaving off the lead slug ribs.

That makes perfect sence to me Cobra.

I guess I'll test some sabots with a Hastings choke tube and see how tight of groups I can get.

Damn, I just have too many projects goning on right now! This may need to sit on the back burner for another month.

I have a custom MSG90A1 clone comming and I "REALLY" want to break it in, before it starts snowing here.

[stumpjumper 0]

don't mean to hijack the thread but i have a noob question...does adding a choke to the saiga 12 take it out of sporting conf. and would then need to follow 922r?

thanks.

[kindapointless 22]

Dont go too fast fps on a rifled choke tube you will actually lose some accuracy. Reason being is its slamming into the rifleing which can distort the slug and occasionaly jack a choke tube up. Its just like too long a throat on a rifle just a crap load worse. Full bore slugs in a rifled barrel dont shave near as bad for same reason. A mass moving at 1500 fps dosent really like to hit obstructions hence the shaving.

Edited October 19, 2012 by kindapointless

[gunfun 3,931]

don't mean to hijack the thread but i have a noob question...does adding a choke to the saiga 12 take it out of sporting conf. and would then need to follow 922r?

thanks.

 

Nope. So far they don't count chokes or other shotgun stuff as muzzle devices. They could change their minds about this in the future.

 

Basically there were 2 things that would kick you out of sporting:1) mags >5 shots ,2) pistol grip. Now it doesn't look like the pistol grip matters. The trend has been to be more reasonable and less restrictive, but we'll see what happens after November. It does look like restrictive gun laws are back on the table as a key issue this time around, but congress is probably safe enough to prevent anything too bad getting through for the time being.

 

Dont go too fast fps on a rifled choke tube you will actually lose some accuracy. Reason being is its slamming into the rifleing which can distort the slug and occasionaly jack a choke tube up. Its just like too long a throat on a rifle just a crap load worse. Full bore slugs in a rifled barrel dont shave near as bad for same reason. A mass moving at 1500 fps dosent really like to hit obstructions hence the shaving.

 

That makes sense. I had been thinking toward higher FPS for flatter trajectories. Please share your findings as to what works well and doesn't I know every one needs to find what works well in his own gun, but we can work together to come up with some good general starting points.

[kindapointless 22]

I have had good luck out of this s12 with remington sluggers and a improved cylinder choke. Lil known fact is MOST off the shelf slugs will fire through any choke down to full witch is. 035 less then cylinder. Cylinder is considered.729. See where slugging your barrel comes in? Chokes are just subtracting a set number from your bore so if your bore is less to begin with your choke is actually different not by much but it is. Now look at your rifled slug its "fins" are actually there to keep you from going stupid and killing yourself by smashing through a tight choke without over pressure. People are dumb and they had to make them idiot proof. If you measure the main body of a slug it is usually around.694 for this raeason. Heres a small list: light skeet.003, skeet.005, imp skeet.007, imp cylinder.010, light mod.015, mod.020, imp mod.025, light full.030, full. 035, extra full (turkey 1) 040, super full.050. Take those numbers and subtract from.729 which is standard for cylinder bore and you have your choke constriction.

[kindapointless 22]

So to sum that long post up once you slug your bore we can start the process to see what each choke should actually be and then trying a proof of concept to determine which choke is actually which. By proof of concept we get into the ratio of how many objects in a shot colum and the ratio of how many hit within a 30 inch circle at a given distance. I will post more on this if anyone would like in the morning cause this is a pain on a phone. Bet u guys never thought this much crap went into finding the right slug huh? I have way to much time on my hands.

[woodzie65 3]

I thought i just needed a rifled choke and slugs i was wrong. lots of good info thanks

[kindapointless 22]

No you arent wrong im just saying if you want the best theres more to it. If you arent trying to get the best accuracy possible then go for it. My saiga 12 shoots about 2 inch groups at 100 with a ic choke and craptastic slugs which is just fine for me cause i have others that do better. 2 inch groups are damn fine for anything you want to do i just have nothing to do all day so i play with my guns. Get the choke and some slugs and go have fun. If you arent happy or you get bored with the accuracy then try some other things. A 2 inch group with slugs will drop pretty much anyrhing. Hell even a 3 to 4 inch group will so just go have fun.

[gunfun 3,931]

2" at how far?

[kindapointless 22]

100 yards. Managed to pull it off several times but then some days gun just wont coperate. I can keep it between 2 and 3 inches usually. I have a nice sheltered shooting area that usually has no wind which helps immensley.

[PapaZorro 401]

Molot does two paradox (70 mm & 145 mm) that can be used with muzzle brake-compensator or flash hider

 

Edited October 24, 2012 by PapaZorro

[PapaZorro 401]

IZMASH does three paradox (150 mm, 130 mm & 128 mm)

 

 

 

[gunfun 3,931]

OOH, the ones with male threads would be lovely. I think RED333 did something similar to a browning paradox choke so that he could combine a winchoke adapter, rifled choke and GK01.