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TonyRumore

Izhmash copies Tromix firing pin spring.

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Not surprising. I think the Russians are keeping a pretty close eye on what US builders are doing, and if it works - they're adopting it. Bet you never thought you'd be doing their R & D for them.

 

ETA: Funny - Shannon apparently had the same thought/comment at the same time.

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I know. There was an Izhmash rep walking around the SHOT show carrying a picture of a Tromix S-17. I guess he told a few individuals that they (Izhmash) wanted to produce something similar to it.

 

Tony

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As far as some of the internal functionality mods, I mean.

 

I know. There was an Izhmash rep walking around the SHOT show carrying a picture of a Tromix S-17. I guess he told a few individuals that they (Izhmash) wanted to produce something similar to it.

 

Tony

I think it's pretty cool that the work you guys do may be having an influence like that. Izmash USA coming soon? Lol!

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I do think it says something very positive about who is actually at the forefront in developing the platform to its absolute potential.

 

I'm sure they can make something that looks like an S-17 (god knows Tony's got enough imitators on this side of the pond), but they don't have Rumore's 'secret sauce' and special blend of herbs and spices;)

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Not surprising. I think the Russians are keeping a pretty close eye on what US builders are doing, and if it works - they're adopting it. Bet you never thought you'd be doing their R & D for them.

 

The VEPR 12 seems to have more than one or two of the US builder ideas in it. I do hope that you guys continue to push them though.

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I just met a Russian guy on Casino Beach in Pensacola and being an armature Russian speaker at best I took the chance to talk guns with him. He's only 25 but has heard of Tromix and I could not believe this he didn't know hardly anything about Izzy, except they make AK's. He thought all the AK BASED shotguns were something we made here. Didn't make sense because you have to have a smoothbore permit before a rifled permit over there. Maybe his age was the factor. But Tony people know!

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Not surprising. I think the Russians are keeping a pretty close eye on what US builders are doing, and if it works - they're adopting it. Bet you never thought you'd be doing their R & D for them.

 

ETA: Funny - Shannon apparently had the same thought/comment at the same time.

Great minds think alike!

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Not an original thought granted. More than likely something I once read by Dr. Deming. Another:

 

The moral is that it is necessary to innovate, to predict needs of the customer, give him more.

He that innovates and is lucky will take the market

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If they were really bright, they'd hire the top builders in the business, put them under contract, tie them up, and pay them to refine and develop the platform for markets throughout the US and around the world. The Germans have done this with automotive design - and its paying off for them big time.

 

Unfortunately - companies and individuals (large and small) will expend tremendous effort to copy and steal ideas, techniques and technology, cover their tracks, and deny culpability, rather than to seek out innovators and pay them to do what they do by nature.

 

The theory seems to be - that it is always cheaper copy and steal than it is to actually innovate, develop, and refine. That of course ends up being counterproductive in the big picture, but those without the insight, and vision to understand the value of working with innovators, and who lack the capacity, or ability to innovate themselves, will invariably choose to plunder, copy, and steal what they cannot create, and are unwilling to pay for.

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Izmash products have always been questionable quality when they leave the factory. The overall idea is OKAY (safety as an example of why it's not good or great). The execution is terrible. They are available cheap, hence the reason for such proliferation. The rifles, having such proven reliability helps with popularity as well.

 

It's been over half a century and the products are essentially the same. I don't think they will ever execute true refinement - at least at Izmash.

 

I wouldn't call it theft that they are using the heavier spring. This entire forum and all the business supporters suckle from the tit of Izmash anyway. It's a symbiotic relationship.

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We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. You can bolt a pistol grip on a turd, and its still just a turd with pistol grip on it. There are examples of this on every gun auction site, and occasionally even on this very forum

 

You are correct that without something to build upon, most of the innovators, product designers, and builders associated with the forum would be doing something else. By the same token, if the vendors innovators, and consumers on the forum did not exist, there would be far fewer opportunities and options to transform something very basic into something truly extraordinary, and the market for Saiga firearms would be much, much smaller.

 

A Russian manufacturer adopting the heavier Tromix type spring is a real hats off to Rumore, and who is suckling at who's tit in this particular circumstance is pretty clear.

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A Russian manufacturer adopting the heavier Tromix type spring is a real hats off to Rumore

 

There's not a drop of doubt about that. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

 

And, Yes, Izhmash benefits as well, sells more of their product thanks to Tony, yourself, this board, etc. It goes both ways Hence the reason I described it as a symbiotic relationship.

Edited by ec4321

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The new S-12's are now coming with 3.5 pound firing pin springs instead of the old 1.75 pound units.

 

Tony

I've been noticing that.

A good deal of the time when I'm removing the head off a bolt lately I've expected to see your firing pin due to the spring pressure as I release pressure from the bolt head in the process of doing GlassBolt.

This has been a rather recent thing.

 

When did you do your first bolt mod?

They may have been following your lead for some time now if you did it back when the S-12 bolts were even bigger & more rounded when they lacked the additional cut & had the 1 piece FP.

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The vepr-12 still uses the lighter spring. It also has a numbered firing pin.

 

As opposed to IZMASH, Molot guys don't have access to Internet ;).

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Hey PZ, the cool pics you sent me make me think that the Molot guy at least looked at JTE's and other similar magazine releases. Their prior competition release was fairly Rube Goldberg. Also the cool forward charging handle is at least reminiscent of systems like "ratchet cock" or maybe Nate's FAL charging mod.

 

And when you get right down to it, they straight up copied the whole idea of Vepr 12 from Saiga and refined it.

 

I think the Molot guns are great, but no one out there started from scratch. All the builders are getting ideas from each other. I don't think anyone at Molot was making shotgun compensators until after the Tromix Shark break. I could be wrong there.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think they are putting a superior product on the market, but they aren't in a position to point fingers about copying designs. I hope you understand that I don't mean this as a personal attack, just trying to keep the record straight.

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I have an 2011 model S12.Do you recommend changing out the firing pin and spring if I don't have any problems with the factory set-up? Is their any other benefit with the Tromix pin/spring beside hitting harder?

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GF Vepr-12 as well as Saiga-12-030 ware made under the same order/contract from Military/Police Special Forces who needed shotgun on the AK/RPK platform with interchangeable mags. Try to make different shotguns on the same platform. RPK is a copy of whole idea of AK, and copy as original was made by Michail Kalashnikov.

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I have an 2011 model S12.Do you recommend changing out the firing pin and spring if I don't have any problems with the factory set-up? Is their any other benefit with the Tromix pin/spring beside hitting harder?

I would say that the reason to get it is that it is less prone to breakage. Factory pins have been know to break, and depending when it broke, it could be trouble. I got it for the peace of mind I get knowing that in a HD scenario my pin will not fail me. If you replace it prior to needing it you will have a spare. One problem is that if that is all you want to order it is hard to find reasonable shipping. I did a lot of searching around to find the cheapest place to get it, so PM me if you want to know where I got it.

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Even Kalishnikov copied the designs of others during his process of designing the AK. In fact, he initally opted to go for the detached bolt/operating rod design (more like VZ-58), but changed it after he saw another competitor's design. The AK-47 was pretty raw upon his latest prototype, and it took some others to refine it. He was not above taking ideas from others, and it was encouraged.

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Vepr 12 είναι κυνηγετικό όπλο χωρικούς συγκαλυμμένα με mall ninja σιδηροδρομικών πλαστικά επάνω σχεδιασμένο από πρόσφατα καπιταλιστική Molot (μοτοποδηλάτου, κατσαβίδι και κήπο με εύκαμπτο σωλήνα εργοστάσιο) για τη λήψη χρημάτων από χρήματα εκτύπωσης, νεόπλουτων ΗΠΑ όπλο αγαπημένη μωρές rednecks. δεν αγοράζουν αυτό shogtuns, επειδή μόνο κάνοντας να φτωχές από του να δαπανήσουν χρήματα ερέθισμα πρόνοιας δημιουργήθηκε στα πιεστήρια και πραγματικά δεν με τίμια

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engrlish:

Vepr 12 shotgun villagers are disguised with plastic rail mall ninja up recently designed by capitalist Molot (moped, screwdriver and a garden hose factory) for taking money from money printing, U.S. nouveau riche favorite weapon foolish rednecks. do not buy this shogtuns, because only by doing to the poor than to spend stimulus money on welfare created presses and really do not honestly

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