msrdiver 42 Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) My goals are a fairly easy to make slug load that is also easy on the shoulder. This rules out the 1400-1500 fps loads using a lot of slower burning powder like Blue or Longshot. I have Universal powder and I don't use it in my favorite loads. So, I decided to try Universal behind my 1 oz Lee Key Drive slugs. The powder is faster burning so I expect a higher pressure sooner. It is my intention to get the slug moving yet generate enough pressure to cycle the action. I am seeking 1300 fps loads, we'll see the results when they come back from Tom Armbrust. Onto the load backstory... I chose the Federal Target hull with a paper base wad due to the straight wall design. I figured it would be easy enough to get a lot of Universal powder and the wad-slug combo to sit in the hull without a sharp pressure rise. I am using the Federal S3 wad (pink). So some of you know the problem already. Yep, the slug doesn't sit on the bottom of the wad. The petals keep the slug off the wad by about 1/8." Lo and behold, I have 1/8" felt wads <--- convenient huh? I also read that the slugs are mo better accurate if a hard card is behind them. So I put a 20 gauge overshot card on top of the 1/8" felt. Primers, which to use is so hard to choose so I'll try all three, of course! I'll be sending off three loads using each primer listed below. Testing each load costs $5, so that's $45 just getting started. I'm beginning to consider buying my own testing set up. The details: Hull: Federal Target with paper base wad. Primers: Fed209A, Rem209P, Win209 Powder: Universal 25.4 grains. Bushing #171 on my Lee Load All II. Wad: Federal 12S3 1-1/8" felt 1- 20 gauge over shot card Slug: 1 oz Lee Key Drive (439 grains) Crimp: 8 point, no rattling observed. Results are forth coming.... Anybody, what do you have made that could be sent off soon for testing? Slug load or buckshot is fine. You ship it to Tom Armbrustand I'll pay for the cost for the testing. results are shared. Tom Armbrust 1108 W. May Avenue McHenry, IL 60050-8918 Edited October 30, 2012 by msrdiver 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 I kind of expected you would do your first few batches with those recipes on the instructions to the mold. I guess you are more inventive. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
msrdiver 42 Posted October 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 From what I remember, those loads had more universal powder and were closer to 1400fps. I'm looking for an easier to shoot ~1300fps slug that weighs almost 4X's as much as a 115 grain 1200fps 9mm slug. More mass and a small increase in speed from a much heavier gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted October 30, 2012 Report Share Posted October 30, 2012 for "homework"? I go back and forth with slugs. something soft shooting is nice for the quick followup, but they have soooo much drop when you get out toward the end of range.., And let's face it- I just like the absurd amount of power a full house 12 gauge slug represents. I can take the pain, and I have a gun that means I don't have to. PS, I'll do some calling around tomorrow looking for a local source on that buckshot. The people who tried it liked the load, and it was pretty quick to make since I could just pour the shot in rather than taking the time to stack carefully. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
msrdiver 42 Posted December 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Okay I have two more loads made to send off for testing. Both use WSF (28.45 grains) and LEE Key Drive 1oz Slug. Each has a 1/8" fiber card under the slug. Slugs were pushed in finger tight. Great crimping on both hulls. Three of each are being shipped off this week. 1. Remington hull with genuine Winchester pink WAA12 wad and R209P primer. 2. Federal Top Gun hull, with fiber base wad, genuine Federal 12S3 wad, and F209A primer. The slug was much easier to set in the Federal hull/12S3 wad combo. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) Cool. I've ordered the 12SO wads, so when they come in I will be building some with that wad and sending them in. That wad is about 1/8 shallower, so it will eliminate the need for a nitro card. I figure you can put 1 20 ga card underneath to eliminate key bite if desired, so that is how I will send them in. I know you wanted lower velocity, but since I am developing the loads anyway... Are you interested in data for longshot powder? I bought some of that, because there are a number of listed loads with higher velocities using the same components without gaining much pressure. 30 grains of longshot takes up roughly the same space as 20 grains of WSF. Most of the listed loads use the federal primer. It seems to me that it would be nice to make a mid velocity load at ~1300-1400 FPS for moderate recoil with a fairly flat trajectory. There are a few recipes for 1/18 oz shot loads that look suitable for this. I would also like to use gold medal hulls to try and achieve a hotter load somewhere above 1600 FPS. Lyman doesn't have much data for powerful cartridges in 2 3/4" to work from. Therefore, I will send samples in for testing for anything that exceeds book data before I consider firing it. Because of the trajectory thing, it also occurs to me that 7/8 oz of lead at 1400 FPS or so might be a pretty good compromise between recoil and drop. No 7/8 oz mold at the moment though. Edited December 4, 2012 by GunFun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 PS, when I tried the felt +OS card thing, it seemed to make for springyness, which would usually crimp alright. The problem was some of them would push the crimp back open a few days later. Have you noticed any of this? I also have concerns about felt getting stuck in the back of the slug and messing accuracy up. Hopefully the OS card will be adequate to prevent that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 I load the Lee 1oz slugs using data straight from Hodgdon... 2-3/4" Remington hulls, 36 grains HS-6, WAA12SL wad. They averaged 1305 fps out of my 19" S-12. They did a little better than that out of a 20" pump. No trouble cycling. I have the MD arms gas plug, will not function ANYTHING on settings 1 and 2. Cycles 3" magnums on setting 3, and these slug handloads on position 4. Some trap loads will function on setting 5. So, somewhere in between magnums and light loads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
msrdiver 42 Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Oh No! not HS6! That'd mean another powder to buy. I think I'll stick to my 1 1/8oz field loads and adapt that to the slug. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 But there are so many loads that use Blue Dot or HS6, including the pistol calibers. What's another can on the shelf? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 But there are so many loads that use Blue Dot or HS6, including the pistol calibers. What's another can on the shelf? Yeah, not wanting to buy another can of powder is kind of a silly reason to re-invent the wheel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 i'm all for reinventing the wheel in the name of exploration or fun, but if there is load data for a different powder that makes the velocity you want with the components you want to use, a can of powder costs the same as having it tested. I've changed my mind about trying to devise and test high power loads because I was reminded that Lee already gives us a few of those I can use. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
msrdiver 42 Posted December 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Reinventing, exploring, curiosity, call it what you like. It is fun finding out the performance of new, at least to me, recipes. Netpakrat: Another bottle on the shelf? Umm, I now have only four or five1 lb bottles. Most containers I had/have are the 4lb jugs. Another can on shelf would be feeding the addiction beyond reason. I'd like to play around with Blue Dot but that has a reputation of not metering well through the plastic LEE Load All II bushing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) Any issues with HS-6 or Green Dot metering? Those are both useful for the pistol calibers I am fooling around with. Also most of the 1250 FPS ish data for the 12SO wad uses Green Dot. Edited December 8, 2012 by GunFun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) I think I have the bushings that came in my Load-All in a box someplace... I have never used them. I have measured all of my shotgun charges with an old RCBS Uniflow powder measure, which seems to work fine. I have only loaded slugs and buckshot so far, so it hasn't really slowed me down at all. And if I were trying to feed a trap habit and needed to load a higher volume of shells, I certainly wouldn't be using a Load-All. And with all of the problems I have had with static here due to the dry air, I couldn't imagine using a powder system with plastic bushings... I had to wash all the hulls in dishwashing detergent to kill the static (to keep the powder from creeping out of the hulls), and use a metal funnel just to get it to pour. I've had to buy metal funnels for pretty much every caliber I load for this reason.. I wish I could have found HS-6 in 4 or 8 pound jugs... All I could find is the one pounders; the local shop I spoke with about the bigger jugs said that since they come in cases of 4, I would need to commit to buying 4 jugs for them to even order it. Edited December 8, 2012 by Netpackrat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Squishy 1,149 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Any special considerations when sending shells to the address above with regard to shipping? Hazmat? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 I think I have the bushings that came in my Load-All in a box someplace... I have never used them. I have measured all of my shotgun charges with an old RCBS Uniflow powder measure, which seems to work fine. I have only loaded slugs and buckshot so far, so it hasn't really slowed me down at all. And if I were trying to feed a trap habit and needed to load a higher volume of shells, I certainly wouldn't be using a Load-All. And with all of the problems I have had with static here due to the dry air, I couldn't imagine using a powder system with plastic bushings... I had to wash all the hulls in dishwashing detergent to kill the static (to keep the powder from creeping out of the hulls), and use a metal funnel just to get it to pour. I've had to buy metal funnels for pretty much every caliber I load for this reason.. I wish I could have found HS-6 in 4 or 8 pound jugs... All I could find is the one pounders; the local shop I spoke with about the bigger jugs said that since they come in cases of 4, I would need to commit to buying 4 jugs for them to even order it. Wipe your stuff down with a dryer fabric softener sheet to kill the static. I do this in the winter when I need to . Works like a charm! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Thanks for the dryer sheet tip. that makes good sense. I found that my LLA charge bar was beginning to drag and had smeared powder build up every time I changed bushings. I scraped that off carefully each time, but fine powders and flake types such as WST seemed to make a bigger mess. So I rubbed it down with some lee sizing wax I had for metallic cartridges and let it dry before putting it back. It runs so much more smoothly, and I think I cured the build up issues. Side note, Green Dot meters well. My only dislike of it is that it has a sour smell when fired. I am used to enjoying the fireworks smell when I get back from the range and open my case, not a stink. Will try to get some pictures of recovered 12S0 wads soon, along with the cutaways. The key drives all or most of the way through the floor of the wad without card. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Wipe your stuff down with a dryer fabric softener sheet to kill the static. I do this in the winter when I need to . Works like a charm! That was the first thing I tried. It helped some... It made it just barely possible to put powder into the hulls without some of it migrating all the way out the top. It still migrated partway up the inside of the hulls though. Plus it was time consuming to wipe each hull. On the recommendation of a user at another forum, I dumped all of my hulls (after removing primers so they would drain properly) in the kitchen sink full of soapy water. Then let them dry thoroughly. This killed the static once and for all. The first time I tried that, I rinsed the soap off in clean water before setting them up to dry. This still helped some (about as well as with just using dryer sheets), but didn't work nearly as well as using soapy water only, and letting it dry directly off the hulls. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
msrdiver 42 Posted December 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Keep the box open for UPS to inspect. They'll label it ORM-D and write small arms cartridges on the label. No hazmat fee if the shell is completely reloaded. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
msrdiver 42 Posted January 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2013 OKAY! Tuesday I'll ship the shells for testing. I got side tract with nailing and painting trim work and hanging curtains and shades while I had the money. I like the second recipe more because the shells were faster to assemble, I'll still ship both designs, in the name of curiosity, but will favor this recipe: Okay I have two more loads made to send off for testing. Both use WSF (28.45 grains) and LEE Key Drive 1oz Slug. Each has a 1/8" fiber card under the slug. Slugs were pushed in finger tight. Great crimping on both hulls. Three of each are being shipped off this week. 1. Remington hull with genuine Winchester pink WAA12 wad and R209P primer.2. Federal Top Gun hull, with fiber base wad, genuine Federal 12S3 wad, and F209A primer.The slug was much easier to set in the Federal hull/12S3 wad. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
msrdiver 42 Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 After this bill I think I'm done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Fyi, a couple of the loads I intended to test failed to cycle. when I went out shooting. I thought they were verified. So I held off on shipping until I can be sure the recipe I send in is based on a load that runs reliably. Sorry for the delay on data. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
msrdiver 42 Posted February 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2013 Shells were shipped last week. I am waiting on results which usually arrive by mail. Please continue to be patient. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
msrdiver 42 Posted April 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 (edited) Results received yesterday! The 3 shell results details: Slug is hard lead measuring 0.686 diameter. Three PRIMER substitutions listed first.Hull: Federal Target with paper base wad.Primers: Rem209P, Powder: Universal 25.4 grains. Bushing #171 on my Lee Load All II.Wad: Federal 12S31-1/8" felt1- 20 gauge over shot cardSlug: 1 oz Lee Key Drive (439 grains)Crimp: 8 point, no rattling observed. FPS / PSI 1329/7000 1313/6700 1272/6100 Hull: Federal Target with paper base wad.Primers: Win209, Powder: Universal 25.4 grains. Bushing #171 on my Lee Load All II.Wad: Federal 12S31-1/8" felt1- 20 gauge over shot cardSlug: 1 oz Lee Key Drive (439 grains)Crimp: 8 point, no rattling observed. FPS / PSI 1346/7100 1363/7500 1356/7400 Hull: Federal Target with paper base wad.Primers: Fed209A, Powder: Universal 25.4 grains. Bushing #171 on my Lee Load All II.Wad: Federal 12S31-1/8" felt1- 20 gauge over shot cardSlug: 1 oz Lee Key Drive (439 grains)Crimp: 8 point, no rattling observed. FPS / PSI 1379/8100 1361/7600 1375/8100 Latest favorite... Hull: 2 3/4" Remington Gun Club.Primers: Rem209P, Powder: WSF 28.45 grains. Wad: WAA12SL plus 20ga. fiber card under slugSlug: 1 oz Lee Key Drive (439 grains), 0.686 diameterCrimp: 8 point, no rattling observed FPS / PSI 1414/7300 1449/7900 1463/8300 Just because load Hull:2 3/4" Fed TopGun with paper base Primers: Fed-209A, Powder: WSF 28.45 grains. Wad: Fed12S3 plus 20ga. fiber card under slugSlug: 1 oz Lee Key Drive (439 grains), 0.686 diameterCrimp: 8 point, no rattling observed FPS / PSI 1392/7200 1158/4300 Crimp had popped 1330/6100 Edited April 3, 2013 by msrdiver 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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