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I'm guessing that the answer is "NO" because most would consider it to be a shotgun. I've heard mention of the fact that it is technically a caliber and not a guage but I don't want to be the 1st to test the ATF. Any thoughts?

 

Where'd that ATFman go!? :lolol:

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  • 4 weeks later...
If 410 is a shotgun, why are there ten round mags available to the public for it? Its semi-auto and clip fed. If its a shottie, it would be allowed only 5 rounds......

And this law is where? This is a common suspicion, that ATF will in the future make such rulings, but they have done no such thing with the Saiga. Only the USAS-12 and one by Beretta were classified as DDs, along with the Streetsweeper and Strikers. They were banned by name, their features were not.

 

You keep repeating your statements on shotgun mag capacity laws. You know what I want, Bvamp. I'm waiting. Find me the damned law.

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I will dig and put an end to this issue once and for all. Either way it goes, Ill be pleased to get a headache from the ATF laws LOL. Im fairly certain 410 falls out of shotgun territory though. why else would they sell 10 rounders to public?

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I only know of one place to get a 10 round mag and that would cost me $100 bucks. Kinda pricy just to have alittle fun with a 410. If I really thought it was o.k. to have a 410 with the standard ak furniture..I'd be out shooting mine instead of it being just a box full of parts in the basement. :( I have no faith that the ban will sunset and I can't.. I just can't.. enjoy it as it came. Want to buy a 410 that has only fired 5 rounds?

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Well, I am seeing some discrepancies in the laws here regarding .410 and the definition of shotgun. I have to make a few phone calls here...I'm going to finish this topic off once and for all if it kills me LOL. Why would you be allowed to buy the 10 round 410 mags....i dont get it. Definition of shotgun

 

(5) The term "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

 

BUT a RIFLE is

 

(7) The term "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

 

I am paying special attention to the term DESIGNED. Any gun in 12 20 or 410 with rifling IS DESIGNED JUST for slugs which are single projectile rounds....So my confusion now is a rifled 410 barrel....if you only puts slugs in it....what is it....a big rifle? or a little shotgun with a rifled barrel. I would THINK it would fall into rifle category then if it has a rifled barrel. Take a 37mm launcher. You can have one, you can use flares in it, but you cannot fire less-than-lethal ammo outta it. They will trust us to not put other ammo in THOSE. So why not in a rifled 410? according to what I see here, a rifled barreled 410 WOULD DEFINATELY be a rifle, and not a shotgun, hence giving you the ability to use a ten round mag. Im even more confused now than when i started, but im going to find out the real deal here in any event, because MY understanding of the 410 even though i dont shoot one, is already technically different. I know a few ppl to ask that are big time into the gun law, plus im going to call a few officals up. This is ridiculous already with these laws. According to the 37mm case, a 410 in rifled barrel would be a RIFLE not a SHOTgun, as would any shottie with a rifled barrel that one only uses slugs with. Let me see what i can stir up with the ppl i know and ill get back to you with a 100% answer this time. To ME anyway, it looks like anything with a smoothe bore on it is a shotgun, and anything with a rifled barrel is a rifle, regardless of cartridge type. Im pissed either way that this issue is so hard to figure out. Ill have a degree in ATF law by the time im done with this LOL...F#$%ERS

Edited by Bvamp
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That is exactly the issue Im trying to address. I just spoke to the sherriff, the state police, the ATF, the game warden, AND my local dealer. Apparantly, EAA is protecting its import liscense and doesnt want to thread on thin ice. The police had no answer, the ATF gave me a run around. The game warden however did say that a PG during hunting season IS illegal, if used during shotgun season, at least in NY where I live. Go figure. Not an answer for me. Apparantly, pistol grip nulls the definition of the law of shotgun, in that shotgun is made, desgined or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder....pistol grip makes one able to NOT fire from the shoulder...(like i cant fire from the hip with a montel carlo type stock). My dealer would get me any of it, but he said the same thing EAA says to you guys when you contact them...they want LEO paperwork/letterhead to sell it to you or my dealer. So again, we are in a circle. Is it legal to PG a saiga 410? It would seem so, but not during hunting season if used during shotgun only season where 410 is allowed. That is what the game warden told me, and my dealer told me. 410 to MY state is a shotgun because it is included in the small game laws here as a shotgun. Again, no help there. My dealer here is telling me that extended magazines ARE legal in the saigas. Period. This guy has been in business a long time, so I trust what he says about it. What apparantly is happening, is there is some sort of deal with the importer to not make available certain options to the general public in some cases with these guns. So to answer your question? I cant answer it. Noone seems to want to, either, short of the confusing explanation that Im trying to give you here. Im sorry that I cant do better than that guys. I DO know from what im reading with the ATF laws, that any smooth bore weapon that can take a shot cartridge IS technically a shotgun. A rifled slug gun would however NOT be a shotgun, but would fall into the rifle category. Its one big loophole that apparantly the ATF does not want to address. Maybe someone else will have luck asking the ATF why a 410 can legally take 10 round mags. That would make it a RIFLE. If not, a RIFLED SLUG GUN is by definition NOT a shotgun anymore. Maybe its some technical foul up on thier part or something because of the caliber thing.

 

My call on this whole thing would be NO, you cant. If I understand it correctly, any gun that was not originally MADE with a PG on it (post ban) is not eligible for PG conversion.

 

...a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder....

 

PG conversion would make the weapon able to fire NOT from the shoulder. hence you have made an assault weapon.

 

That is how I, myself, would call it. We should be allowed to buy them in PG form origianlly though, and THAT is the issue I cannot seem to get an answer on. Im thinking it is a deal the ATF has with the company importing them. Go figure. If Im repeating and re-repeating, its because im trying to keep my train of thought on this thoroughly confusing (and frustrating) subject. My guess is the ATF forgot something, and just made a private agreement with the importer, hence our confusion on the subject. I am told the clip fed magazines should not be capacity limited. More confusion. Cant get the 8 rounder for 12 or 20 gauge, but you CAN get the ten rounder for the 410? come on already....this is the very reason the gun OWNERS should be writing the friggin laws, and not the people that are scared of them.

 

I hope this doesnt add to the confusion. :( I tried. Thats all I can tell ya.

 

p.s. someone please email me some aspirin.

Edited by Bvamp
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There is NO law saying that 12 or 20ga shotguns can't take >5rd mags. They just aren't imported for business reasons. Same reason Wal Mart won't wait 3 days for an instacheck to clear in the rarest of cases. Has to be instant, and that's their private decision.

 

No pistol grips during hunting season is a HUNTING law. It has nothing to do with ownership. PA restricts hunting shotguns to 2+1rd, and no semi-auto rifles or pistols are allowed for hunting. But you can buy all the AKs, ARs, extended tube shotguns, compact pistols, assault pistols, etc etc etc for recreational, defensive, pest control, and competitive use, just not use them for hunting.

 

Take a pistol grip shotgun hunting and you'll have trouble with the game warden, NOT THE ATF. All he can do is restrict your hunting or fine you for what you do while hunting or in hunting land. He can't touch what you own in your home.

 

Any rifle above 50 cal without a sporting exemption is a DD. Period. 12ga rifle bored Mossberg 500, Rem 870, etc are SHOTGUNS. Yes, RIFLED SHOTGUNS. Yes, it's wild. But remember in the civil war they called their arms "rifled muskets"

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I see what you all are saying about EAA not giving us the 8rd mags. Legally they can be produced here and sold, but no imported due to another law (I was told his in an earlier post). I imagine if EAA started making them, the ATF would mark their Saiga as a destructive device and kill their Saiga sales which is just recently taking off (so I've been seeing).

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rifle or shotgun, this is the actual piece of the law that tells us we cannot pistol grip the gun...

 

...a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder....

 

PG conversion would make the weapon able to fire NOT from the shoulder. hence you have made an assault weapon.

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AR-15s have a pistol grip. They are legally rifles. AKs have pistol grips. They are legally rifles. They do not become illegal unless they have more than one listed restricted feature (P-grip is it)

 

Do you post while drunk? Suggesting that adding a p-grip makes a gun no longer a rifle or shotgun throws out any exposure to common sense. Yes, you must be drunk.

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Obviously you need me to walk you through this with your dizzying intellect BattleRifleG3. Here is the LETTER of the LAW:

 

(5) The term "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

 

key in on this part:

 

...weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder...

 

now, you go to the rifles, so here, let me hold your hand for you again:

 

(7) The term "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

 

again, key in on this part of that:

 

...weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder...

 

do you notice something? FROM THE SHOULDER!!! see that part in there wise ass? let me repeat that for you, as you obviously cannot read laws well...

 

...weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder...

 

now, I understand all that shooting has scrambled your brain, so let me explain what that actually MEANS to you.

 

what that MEANS is when you buy a gun WITHOUT a PISTOL GRIP on it, it has been designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder....

 

now what does that mean...see I needed clarification on this myself, so dont feel bad...what it MEANS is that if you install a PISTOL GRIP on THAT weapon....it is not a legal "assault weapon" at that point...dont get confused now on me....we arent talking about buying a gun MADE with a pistol grip on it....when you install a pistol grip on that gun....it wasnt made with one....it no longer is a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder...the pistol grip allows other firing methods. yeh, pretty dumb huh. BUT

 

now we go to the "bad parts" issue....

 

SEMI AUTOMATIC SHOTGUN = ONE BAD PART

DETACHABLE MAGAZINE = SECOND BAD PART

-------------------------------------------------------

limit on shotguns are TWO bad parts. when you put a pistol grip on a gun that was NOT MADE ORIGINALLY WITH ONE...you have just violated not only the 2 bad part LAW for shotguns, but you ALSO have violated some OTHER BASIC gun law saying that you have redesigned a weapon without being a certified gunsmith, or registering to do so with the ATF in advance. YOU CANNOT PUT ONE ON A SAIGA EVEN IF YOU GET IT IN PUMP IF IT DID NOT ORIGINALLY HAVE A PISTOL GRIP ON IT! IT IS NO LONGER CLASSIFIED THE SAME WAY IT WAS WHEN YOU BOUGHT IT! You CANNOT do it to the centerfire RIFLES either. Letter of the law. The saiga rifles that I have seen modified, are probably being let go because they can technically be called an ak-47 type action in centerfire rifle chambering or some other stupid bullshit, but Im guessing that even the ATF does want to expend resources on something that the NRA could take them to court on and win anyway in the long run. Bottom line is, it was registered as a rifle or shotgun and not as an assault weapon. You cannot change it to an assault weapon without paperwork and a legitimate reason. And if that pisses you off Im sorry. I didnt write the laws. Maybe the NRA should be writing them so that we dont have this problem anymore.

 

I really hope that is an explanation to you BattleRifleG3, as I tire of your rudeness twords me. Just because you have a gun, doesnt mean you can talk down to people, and it also does not mean that there should not be a SINGLE gun law out there. But we have had this arguement before, and anyone that was part of it knows where I stand on that. I thought you were cool when I first joined this forum, but I can see that you are an ignorant asshole. Blow me.

 

Now for you other people that I am not directing this little talk to, I have discovered when I was searching for this information....apparantly TO THE LETTER OF THE LAW only applies to US AS GUN OWNERS! What I am saying, is because it was NEVER SPECIFIED TO THE LETTER OF THE LAW like that was, 8 round magazines in the saiga ARE legal. Detachable magazines are NOT SPECIFICALLY LIMITED TO 5 ROUNDS! JUST TUBULAR MAGS IN SHOTGUNS! THEY MISSED THAT PART! The ATF is preventing them from being imported. How is that for stepping on our rights...but, come sept. with our divided congress, we wont be able to GET saigas anymore when they renew and addendum to the AWB. So stock up while you can, because saigas are included in the new form of the ban. A divided congress is a dangerous thing.

 

The bottom line is you break TWO ATF laws mounting a PG on any shotgun not originally made with one UNLESS IT IS PREBAN AND EXEMPT!!

 

You break ONE if you do this to a rifle that was not originally made with one.

 

Dont ask me why the laws are how they are. Its one gigantic clusterfuck if you ask me.

Edited by Bvamp
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What you just said bears no resemblance to an actual law.

 

There is NO law that says you may have two features. The laws either say ONE feature or NO features. On a semi-auto rifle with a detachable mag, that means one of:

1. Bayo lug

2. Flash hider

3. P-grip

4. Folding stock

5. Grenade Launcher

 

On a semi-auto shotgun, that means one of:

1. Detachable mag

2. Fixed mag over 5rd

3. P-grip

4. Folding stock

 

The Ban applies only to semi-automatics.

 

As far as adding a p-grip, even to a pump...

 

Are you suggesting that adding a p-grip stock to a 10-22 or a Mini-14 is making it no longer a rifle? Or that doing a Saiga rifle conversion to P-grip makes it no longer a rifle?

 

Guns with pistol grips can still be fired from the shoulder. Such as ARs, AKs, and such.

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I know what the problem is here....you are looking at the wrong laws here. You are referring to the assualt weapons laws. I am quoting out of the Federal Firearms Regulations Guide from the ATF. (ATF P5300.4(01-00)) out of the section named (921. Definitions (5) and (7)) This comes before the AWB laws.

 

NO you CANT put a PG on a post ban 10/22. I do believe the pump shotguns fall into this as well. They have to be the EXACT MODEL that is available WITH a pistol grip STOCK. You usually get these guns WITH a pistol grip when you buy them new. (if you havent, better get a new shop)

 

Im telling you that this is what I found out from about 20 phone calls to about EVERY place I could think of, and then looking up what was told to ME. Trying to clarify this, as I had it wrong too....think we can be civilised again or no? The clusterfuck our government has us in with these gun laws is RIDICULOUS already. They need to rework the laws into ONE friggin SIMPLE set. They dont need to go and ban more stuff. They need something plausible that everyone can understand.

 

here is description 30 which is what you refer to, and was added upon by the AWB:

 

( 30 ) The term "semiautomatic assault weapon" means -

( A ) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any

caliber, known as -

(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all

models);

(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;

(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);

(iv) Colt AR-15;

(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;

(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;

(vii) Steyr AUG;

(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and

(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper

and Striker 12;

 

( B ) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine

and has at least 2 of -

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the

weapon;

(iii) a bayonet mount;

(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash

suppressor; and

(v) a grenade launcher;

 

( C ) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine

and has at least 2 of -

(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol

grip;

(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash

suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;

(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles,

the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger

hand without being burned;

(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;

and

(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and

 

( D ) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the

weapon;

(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

 

what I am saying is that when you take something that WAS a rifle or shotgun, and it becomes a semiautomatic assault weapon, you just broke a law. yeh if it WAS one to begin with, then you can change stuff around. because it is JUST a shotgun, putting a PG on it or on JUST a rifle with a clip thats semi auto, its now jumped classifications to assault weapon. Ya fallah? or no. to the letter of the law that means that that last part there, if we have to follow it to the letter like im saying, that means the detachable magazine on the saigas are NOT limited to 5 rounds, as it is not specifically specified. but thats another arguement. I cant help what the laws say man, Im just trying to translate this bullshit for us.

Edited by Bvamp
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The law you posted states that guns so described are assault weapons, and are illegal unless it was there before the ban.

 

If it does not have two or more features, meaning it has one or less, or is not semi-auto, and if a rifle, does not have a detachable mag, it is a regular friggin rifle or shotgun.

 

A 10-22 comes without a P-grip usually. Adding one means only one restricted feature and it's ok. Who in the world said you had to buy it that way? Are you saying I can buy something brand new from the factory that is illegal to make myself? That is totally bogus. If it's legal for me to buy new production, it's legal for me to produce myself. Does somebody need an FFL to put a pistol grip on a shotgun and sell it again?

 

Could someone please step in here? Have I said anything that isn't correct here? The old saying seems to be proving true: Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded. I hope not to make a retard of myself.

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BattleRifleG3-

You have to remember the laws are written to make lawyers ritch. There is a whole different law that makes weapons over 1/2" bore "destructive devices" same as C4 but excepts weapons generally accepted as 'shotguns with a sporting nature' even with rifled barrells.This is why .410 is leagally different than .12GA. it IS less than 1/2 in. bore. Allmost all of these laws are "add on" offenses.Unless you insist on pissing in somebody's wheaties (LEO type) or are in posession of something that is pushing the limits when you get arrested than all of this is just BS. HOWEVER-please do us the favor and don't be the test case that lets some lillylivered judge "interpret" the law to make more of our toys illegal. :cryss:

 

G O B

 

P.S. If you do find yourself in the above situation,you will also be donating plenty of$$$$$$$$$$$ to lawyers! :dollar::dollar::dollar::dollar:

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We are saying in the end, the same thing, Im just going by defenitions and not clauses here. What Im saying is if its made after the laws in question went into effect, you cannot alter the original deal. The saiga with the PG, 12c, is originally MADE that way. It is not just fired from the shoulder by design anymore. That gun is made that way, hence the PG comes WITH it. The other models have different names for them. Meaning they are not the 12c specifically. Even BEFORE the AWB laws that added into there, this definition comes up FIRST in the law. That is why that model of saiga has a different name, actually. You break two laws, not one, if you PG a saiga that is NOT a LEO only. If you take that same gun, weld a steel mag into it, make it so it can be loaded even, then change it to pump or whatever, you still CANNOT put a PG on it. That model was not originally DESIGNED to have a PG on it. You break definition 5 is what Im being told, and that is a crime I guess. Two laws, AWB ban is broken, and the definitive type of gun has now been broken here. This is why when you see people arrested on firearms charges, there is often more than one thing on the arrest form. Bottom line is if the law DOES decide to do something to you, its MANDATORY time. Thats just not cool. BUT--

 

Its friggin stupid that they can use the laws like THAT on US, and we cannot take the magazine laws and the semi auto shotgun laws, and the loophole you know all exists because they forgot to specifiy that a detachable mag can only have 5 rounds in it. They missed that part because these are laws written by non-gun owning people that are honestly AFRAID of guns. All of you here surely agree with me that its not even the gun thats the problem, its the person holding it, right? Well, why isnt there a double-edged sword in this case? what? only they can tell us the letter of the law? bullshit. Someone should get the NRA going on about that loophole and test them on it.

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If I buy a Mossberg pump shotgun with a standard stock and put a p-grip on it, are you saying that it is illegal?

 

ATF considers modification to be the creation of such a gun as you are modifying yours into.

 

If Mossberg can make a pump shotgun with a P-grip, I can take their shotgun and p-grip it myself.

 

If Valtro can legally make a pump shotgun with a detachable mag and pistol grip, I can take a Mossberg and do the same... If I figured out how to do it.

 

If AK-USA can modify non-p-gripped Saiga rifles into semi-auto AK-103s with requisite US parts, so can I.

 

If the AWB states that a semi-auto shotgun may have 1 of four listed features:

p-grip, folding stock, detachable mag, >5rd fixed mag

Then I can buy a Remington 1100 or a Charles Daly auto or a Beretta Auto and add a pistol grip.

 

Are you suggesting that there are guns that are legal to be manufactured for us that we cannot legally manufacture ourselves?

 

There are no borderline categories for those who know the law. The only borderline is what you do not know. The more you know, the more clear the line is.

Edited by BattleRifleG3
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In all of your examples, yes you CAN. Why? Because every weapon you put up as an example WAS designed to accept a factory made PG configuration. In order for you to put one on say...remington trap guns will be able to pg, because the stock mounting point is the standard old reminigton mount, and there are factory grips for that particular mount. There are no factory mounts for the saiga's. Not that I am aware of. There is only one model of saiga that has a PG on it that I am aware of and it has its own model #. I havent had the opportunity to examine the way the PG is mounted onto the 12c model, but I would guess its not just a swapped out stock. Either way, its a special model #, and not an option you can get on every model. If they sold grip kits for saigas from the factory, then you could do it, but not on the shotguns. Im having trouble thinking of a common gun that is post-ban manufacture that does not have a PG option for it....I think you are missing what I have been trying to point out here. Post-ban mini-14's? Those might be a better example here. Yes, you have to go by the AWB laws too, but you have to not change the definition of your weapon to begin with. Doing so violates federal law.

 

When the manufacturers remake the AK types, they have to reregister them as assault weapons or the like. Any time you change definitions, you have to register it. Do you have an FFL and smithing license? Whats the procedure? Because you havent passed the limits of the AWB, does not mean that you might not have violated ANOTHER law is what my whole point is here. You didnt get or cant find a PG for your mossberg? dude, you can HAVE mine. Benelli's come with them too. So do some of the remingtons out there, and the stock mounting point is the same across all the remingtons. hence you can do it. There is no factory PG stock for any model other than the 12c. You cant buy a factory one without special letterhead, then you cannot make one either. Even if you change your saiga to be single action or pump. The Saiga is a tough example to not get mass confusion when discussing it, but yeh, you are correct in that it is a pretty clear line with most of the laws.

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Clearly you are making the laws far more complicated than they really are. Converting a Saiga 12 to P-grip is as easy as doing so to a Saiga 7.62x39mm. The difference is that the end result would violate the AWB if done to a Saiga 12.

 

Factory option my arse. Any pump shotgun can have a p-grip under federal law as long as the barrel is >18" and total length >26" according to the NFA.

 

You have the NFA and AWB here. AWB doesn't touch pumps, NFA only sets length specs. What other law are you talking about here?

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest FULL_AUTO_990

1.what the fuck is a PG?

2. why are 410 shells more expensive than 12ga shells?

3. do they make 20 round mags for the 410? or other clips that can be converted?

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1-Pistol Grip

2-Because they are far less used than other shotgun rounds and use different tooling to make than the larger shotgun rounds.

3-maybe, but you cant buy them here in the USA I dont think.

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