steel s12 mags. Project completed.

[gunfun 3,931]

That's exciting, but it sounds like it will be a long ways out. Looking forward to seeing your patent application,and how it fits in with the MD DS mag patent.

[beefcakeb99 572]

Damn. I was hoping for another tester or even these hitting the market soon. The one I do have works great for me

[haugpatr 972]

That's exciting, but it sounds like it will be a long ways out. Looking forward to seeing your patent application,and how it fits in with the MD DS mag patent.

 

I am not a patent lawyer, but I thought that as soon as you apply for the patent you are protected, so maybe it won't be too far out.

[gunfun 3,931]

It's amazingly easy to screw up and lose all your rights with that kind of stuff. The best thing is to shut up, and don't share or show a dang thing until his patent lawyer says that he is safe to. 

[haugpatr 972]

It's amazingly easy to screw up and lose all your rights with that kind of stuff. The best thing is to shut up, and don't share or show a dang thing until his patent lawyer says that he is safe to. 

 

I agree with that!

[csspecs 1,987]

I'm going to send in a provisional and then work toward finalizing it out later. I'm not going to delay production a year or more to get it. If this ends up being a delay I'll just give up on the patent.

 

 I'm doing the drawings and writing the descriptions, if it goes through great, if not I'm not losing any sleep over it.

[gunfun 3,931]

Either way, exciting news. Do the new dies leave room for the longer 3" shells?

[csspecs 1,987]

There is more room, but not a huge amount more. I'll have to check.

[gunfun 3,931]

I think 2-3mm would probably make the difference between "most 3" shells" and "All 3" shells."

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Oops wrong topic.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Mullet Man

[csspecs 1,987]

Either way, exciting news. Do the new dies leave room for the longer 3" shells?

 

I have a box of Winchester roll crimped 3 inch rifled slugs, they measure 2.626 overall.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/57930

 

They fit the factory 8 round mags I have with .020 clearance.

They fit our new mags with .021 clearance

They fit our test mags with .006 clearance

 

I have a modification to increase the clearance to .035 that we'll be trying.

[sgmgsg9 6]

TAKE MY MONEY TOO!!!!!!!!!!! I can't wait until they come out ether!   8)

[csspecs 1,987]

Something kinda interesting.

 

http://youtu.be/A8xl00ZyjJk

[gunfun 3,931]

Cool. I've noticed the same thing with all my saiga mags. Especially if the magazine is simply jostled rather than fully replacing a stripped shell. I think I've worked out how you acheived that, but I'll just wait and see if it's what I think. 

[csspecs 1,987]

We feel very good about the magazine at this point. We are going to have the steel cut for a small production run, should be enough to let most active members buy one.

 

I'm trying to get a few made to check lockup so we can get the milled part design squared away.

[gunfun 3,931]

Excellent. I'm guessing that's not your black friday deal.

 

I've been thinking about it, and I think if it's not too late it would be good for the front lug to protrude just a bit more. It would make locking in by feel a bit easier.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Just looking at the shape of the new mag it appears you have added more curve to it. Or is this just a camera angle oddity? It's good news there is more room inside now for 3" shells. Were you able to add some room to the back when changing the overall curvature, eliminating the need for that drastic change in the angle of the spine right at the point your feed lip section is attached? This would be an important factor in whether or not your mag is going to work with the LRBHO.

[csspecs 1,987]

Gunfun.

Sorry, I really wanted to have it in time for a black friday roll out.. But the changes chewed up too much time.

 

I can make some changes to the front, I'll see about getting a little more.

 

 

Cobra.

Yes there is more curve.

 

The back is more open. However at present I don't think it is LRBHO compatible, I'm working on a way to make that happen. I'm pretty sure I can make it happen with the mag well, just less sure on the rock-lock mags.

[gunfun 3,931]

Thanks.

 

I didn't think you were planning on doing magwell mags on your first run- you've really got my attention. I assume they will be for the factory 030 type magwell /V12. . . 

 

I hope they are something I can make work with the JTE magwell too, 10 or 12 shot preferred. I think 10 would be most popular.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Gunfun.

Sorry, I really wanted to have it in time for a black friday roll out.. But the changes chewed up too much time.

 

I can make some changes to the front, I'll see about getting a little more.

 

 

Cobra.

Yes there is more curve.

 

The back is more open. However at present I don't think it is LRBHO compatible, I'm working on a way to make that happen. I'm pretty sure I can make it happen with the mag well, just less sure on the rock-lock mags.

 

My LRBHO was and has always been based on the factory mags. I made it to work with the rock & lock and the magwell mags.... unlike the factory version LRBHO in that respect. The same design has been in place since before there was anything besides factory 5 & 8 rd mags. If your mag allows enough room at the rear for the follower to come up and still trip the lever like the factory one does in the Vepr 12 or new style Izzy, then I will be working toward a way for it to work in your mag also. A big part of the problem with the various mag makers over the years who did bring us domestic mags was, the designs have not been kept to any sort of specs other than just feeding shells or not feeding. This has been a huge pain in the ass for me in trying to keep modding my design to be sure it works with all the mags.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Something kinda interesting.

 

http://youtu.be/A8xl00ZyjJk

Very cool to be able to follow the development of these magazines from concept to actual product. I wish you great success with these mags, I will be buying several.

[Kaelic 7]

I am ready to buy also (as I have been asking for years). Please put me on the list for the first run!

[Nephilim7 107]

I think 10 would be most popular.

 

I plan on holding out and ordering five of the 10 rounders.  I think ten rounds is just right, and 5 of them would hould 2 boxes of shells.  I just hope the springs are plenty stiff in the tens.  I have no real worries about your product quality though. 

 

I am ignorant here:  If I buy rock & lock mags and later get a magwell extension (JTE or 030), can the mags be ground to reliably run in an extended magwell?

 

ETA:  Oh, and working with Cobra's LRBHO is a dealbreaker for me.  It is by far the number one most desirable part for me.  LRBHO is the gaping hole in the S12 platform.

 

Can't wait to get my hands on some of these mags! 

Edited December 5, 2013 by Nephilim7

[csspecs 1,987]

Question for Cobra. How far is your lever from the point the back of the magazine contacts, and how thick is it, how wide is it, what is the shape at the end, and is it centered? Then, how much upward movement is required for a trip.

I need a basic idea of what I'm shooting for.

 

The problem with the last round bolt hold is that its not something I can get measurements from. My other problem is that unlike plastic I can't just make crazy shapes and have them fill in, everything has to come from someplace and any void is an instant weak spot.

 

Currently I have a steel mag that works, but is not compatible with follower based LRBHO, it actually won't work in guns with them. I could make one that is compatible down the road but it will be something different. It will require a modified magazine body, feedlip assembly and follower. 

 

Most people with Saiga-12 shotguns are using them without a LRBHO device as to date none have been released that are easy to install. A little point of fact, drums don't work with the factory LRBHO

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Unfortunately it is far too late in the game to start asking those questions. I did attempt to get some discussion started privately about it long ago but got no responses to my questions as I recall. Basically your magazine is the only one that has been built to date that strays so far from the original design in how the shells (where exactly they) are brought up into the magwell area to be stripped by the feed foot on the bolt.  All the domestic mags have been slightly different and that made things difficult enough, but the rear inside wall of your mag is so far forward in relation to the mag catch and ejector block, and places the follower and shell rims so far forward, it's basically just not going to work, just as you have observed with the factory LRBHO. I have been looking at ways to adapt it to work, and have a good idea I'm working on for that, but as is it is just not able to introduce the follower / shells in the sweet spot where they need to come up to engage right. My LRBHO was designed originally to work with the factory 5 and 8 rd mags, the only ones out at that time. As newer mags like the AGPs and SGMs came along... the Keep Shooting.coms and the Promags... and the drums, they all had different spine thicknesses but were close enough to work with. If you build another steel mag I highly suggest trying to keep it more traditional in the way it locks in and feeds the shells. It's difficult for someone making a part that has to interface that many different mags and work correctly with all or even most of them. That is one of the reasons mine wasn't released back in 2005 or so. After I discovered what a PITA it was going to be to try and make it work with everything I changed my mind. At that point I decided to either link up with a MFG to come out with a Cobra LRBHO specific mag, or at least agree to make a design that works with mine and the factory LRBHO, and supply me with replacement followers to sell my customers in my drop in kits, which will be modified by me to work. That is pretty much still the plan since it's too late now to have mag body molds made just for that. Kevin and I discussed this years ago with AGP mags, but it did not end up happening so I waited some more and kept tweaking things with new mags as they came along. Basically all someone has to do is build a mag as close as possible to the factory 8 rounder, something I am still blown the hell away nobody besides Kevin (AGP) and Promag have attempted to do. Those mags and the SGMs can be modified pretty easily to work with both magwells and LRBHOs. As I stated earlier in one of these steel mag threads, I was working with another guy a year ago and was designing a steel 8 - 10 rd mag that would have been near identical to the Izzy 8 but steel and look like an oversized ribbed AK 30 rd mag. That too fell through because of reasons I mentioned in the other thread. More disappointments on my end.

 As you mentioned also, the drums don't work in the factory magwell guns (unless modified). This is because of the dummy rounds not being square and not always coming up the same to engage the LRBHO lever. Drums also won't work with magwells without extending the feed tower, but they do at least present the shell in the right spot. Whether my LRBHO design or the factory Russian design...(they are actually quite similar although different designs entirely...).. the mags themselves (domestic ones) need to be within pretty close tolerances to the original mags the Saiga and Vepr are designed to work with, or it's a big PITA trying to do much about it.  Sorry but that is pretty much how it is.

 Now all that said, I haven't gotten to see the latest design and how it compares in the rear. That is why the first thing I asked up there ^ was did you make the extra room in the rear. If you can just make the front lug thicker and the rear lug thinner, or somehow shift everything back more so that the rear of the follower comes up as straight as possible under the very front edge of the ejector block (basically the same as the factory mags) then that could change everything pretty quickly.  Something else important to mention is the fact the magwell mags being able to just insert straight in, make things much more simple for me to have my trip lever waiting in the right spot. The shell rims come straight upward rather than in an arc, where they can have a problem with a claw type trip lever like you see in the IZZY LRBHO. That is why only the newer style magwell guns come with a LRBHO. I have that all worked out but need for the rear of the follower to still be in the right location. It can't be too far forward or the shell rims will catch when rocking in a new mag. I'm anxious to see what exact changes you have made with the newer curved design because I'm really hoping that one will be easier to get to work.

[csspecs 1,987]

The rounds are actually within .005 of perfect using the factory 5 and 8 as a guide (mine are a little closer to the muzzle).. The back of the feed lip assembly is still flat on current test model, which I'm assuming is not going to work with a follower level based LRBHO.

 

My current solution to the LRBHO problem is to remove a slot of the feed lip assembly to match the shape of the factory mag back, and shift the feed lip assembly .015 to .020 forward, then to add a section over the back of the feed lip assembly that will be stamped toward the rear .020. The rear lug will be made .060 thinner to compensate. The LRBHO follower design will get a larger cut out to allow it to rise higher and have an extension to match the slot in the feed lip.

 

Ideally the slot will be as small as possible, as this weakens the mag a little. And cutting the follower to allow it to rise would be very hard for your average user, its not just two tabs anymore, its part of the body that would need to be cut.. It would be far less complicated on my end to make two models rather then deal with people trying to modify their magazines.

 

One other question. If the LRBHO tab is pushed while the bolt is forward, what happens when the bolt comes back? This is assuming that the bolt riding over the follower does not in anyway diminish the force being applied to the LRBHO lever.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Taking this to PM...

[csspecs 1,987]

Well... I'll read it in the morning. Wife told me it was time to turn off the computer, in that tone that implied getting bludgeoned for non-compliance.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Well... I'll read it in the morning. Wife told me it was time to turn off the computer, in that tone that implied getting bludgeoned for non-compliance.

 

 

Oh shit you should go man! LOL been there alright!  lol

[csspecs 1,987]

OK, so I think at present we have a solution worked out to accommodate the cobra LRBHO.. It won't be present on the first batch, so the first batch is only for non-LRBHO guns.