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#1 pickpocket

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:36 AM

I have read and searched and cant really find any reviews on these products.

mid barrel break
breacher break
FAB GL-Stock
ITT Shot Shock Shotgun Recoil Buffer


From what i have found is that a mid barrel break seems to be the best for recoil. But what about barrel breacher breaks?
What if you used both breaks at the same time?
What if you use the GL-stock with ITT recoil buffer?
Hell what if you used all four?!?!?lol





1.Whats the best mid barrel break?
2.Whats the best breacher break?
3.Whats are your thoughts on the recoil buffer and gl-stock?

I would like info from ppl with or have ran the products in question.

#2 GunFun

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:03 AM

There is no shortage of discussion about those things. The answers that are true for the same or similar parts for the Saiga, will be true for MKA.

#3 pickpocket

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:21 AM

There is no shortage of discussion about those things. The answers that are true for the same or similar parts for the Saiga, will be true for MKA.


funny how if i search here i cant find it.
can you show these threads or info?
like i said i have search and really nothing i have found.

Edited by pickpocket, 30 October 2012 - 01:22 AM.


#4 GunFun

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:58 AM

Hokay.

Use google like this " forum.saiga12.com muzzle brakes"

Enidine shotstock vs. Pheonix vs. whatever which is best. There are eleventy threads like that.

Bottom line. Everyone likes whatever they own. Whatever I have is better than whatever you have. blah blah.

I think all the technologies are good and help, but the easiest, most effective and cheapest is what people tend to do last because tactical he-men are too cool for recoil pads.

Start with a basic good recoil pad. Next simple step is probably something like JT comp/, tromix mini monster, shark, RJF mojo, Chaos warthog, or whatever. If all you do is dump birdshot, think about getting a choke instead. Compensators help with the light loads but they are a smaller help with weaker ammo. With the heavy stuff, the quality starts to show.

Click here Conversion Parts List - forum.Saiga-12.com It lists most every new fad part at the time that particular new guy was sitting in your shoes. I'd like to actually update it and clean up the list.

Answering all your questions now

mid barrel break This is for a professional installation or pro level skills. You need to do serious machining to your gas system to make these work. Probably worth it if you do all the other stuff though. I'd like a couple, and internal choke threads.
breacher break Which one? Some are good, many suck. Most of the ones worth getting cost around $85

FAB GL-Stock One of the 2 or 4 popular revolutionary unique one of a kind technology pogo sticks. Springs absorb kick then kick back a little . they can pinch you depending on length of pull and cheek weld. Also most of these don't have room to squish down on the shortest setting or two. People either love or hate pogo stick stuff. People who like to hold the gun tight lose the benefit. Long armed guys who like a long stock may get the advantage.

ITT Shot Shock Shotgun Recoil Buffer One of the 2 or 4 popular revolutionary unique technology pogo sticks. Springs absorb kick then kick back a little . they can pinch you depending on length of pull and cheek weld. Also most of these don't have room to squish down on the shortest setting or two. People either love or hate pogo stick stuff.

Ditto Pheonix kick-light.

ditto knocks stock

Ditto Mako pogo.

See also Enedine magical Money tube.™ FYI the more hype they give a simple moving weight or spring, the less respect I have for a company. Not saying springs don't work just saying they aren't such a stunning development. Your car has springs to absorb impact too, but they use gas pistons to reduce rebound.

Moving weight systems such as Dead-Mule and mercury tubes work, but they add weight. Mercury doesn't have rebound issues.


From what i have found is that a mid barrel break seems to be the best for recoil. But what about barrel breacher breaks? There are probably 3 huge active threads on this topic right now. look in the upper right. Click the [new content] button and go back in the first 3 pages and you will find at least 2 of them.
What if you used both breaks at the same time? Law of diminishing returns. They need gas pressure to work. The first few holes in the barrel vent the pressure, so you can only get real effect from compensators that are close together. i.e. double mid barrel.
What if you use the GL-stock with ITT recoil buffer? -They are doing the same job. If you put them together you have made a longer spring. if you collapse them down you have made a low tech shock absorber that bottoms out.
Hell what if you used all four?!?!?lol some people have done that sort of thing. Since some of those are squishy, they both collapse into the same space, so you don't gain much and might pinch yourself.

In a sense I have something in each of the areas you can mess with. 1) pad that hits your shoulder with rubbery stuff or a spring. 2) Use gas at the front to cancel some of the rearward thrust 3) adjust the gas system so as to spread the cycling force out over time. (auto plug)+ AK buffer Fine timing tuning is the next level past mine. 4) use moving weights to transfer the energy. Mercury for me.

Look at the products you listed and determine which of those things each part is supposed to do. 3 parts with the same job may not offer perceptible improvement.

1.Whats the best mid barrel break? Dunno. Wish I did. The original was WAKAL dreadnought. They work. several shops that used to install them, make their own versions now. Obviously they are going to think their version is better. I have never seen of a close direct comparison. Really they require enough changes to the gun, that a controlled comparison would require building 3 otherwise identical $3000 guns from the ground up.
2.Whats the best breacher break?There is not currently a single person who has the ability to give you a meangful answer to this, and 3 active threads where people who have tried one or two compete to shout the loudest.
3.Whats are your thoughts on the recoil buffer and gl-stock. I'd go a different route. A single good recoil pad such as kickeez or limbsaver is probably a better choice. I chose to make a folder with kickeez and a C&H mercury tube. Here's how: http://forum.saiga-1...a-modern-touch/

Edited by GunFun, 30 October 2012 - 02:12 AM.

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#5 isma

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:14 AM

For the breache break,; Anyone buy one of this?
http://forum.saiga-1...y-one-of-these/
This one works.

Edited by isma, 30 October 2012 - 03:21 AM.


#6 Alaskapopo

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:26 AM

I read that a mid brake will not work ont he AKDAL due to the way the gas system works on it. (the port being further down the barrel than the Saiga). The problem being the comp will rob too much of the gas needed to make the gun function.
pat

#7 Syndicate

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 07:39 AM

I read that a mid brake will not work ont he AKDAL due to the way the gas system works on it. (the port being further down the barrel than the Saiga). The problem being the comp will rob too much of the gas needed to make the gun function.
pat


go on firebird's website or search for firebird MKA 1919
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room," I'll be an elitist! (From Get Your War On!)
 
ADD is a hoax. There’s no scientific and then there was a car chase, and ooh, I gotta go pee, then this guy, you’re funny! Yesterday I lemonade

 

 

#8 compshootfl

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 08:34 AM

I just invested $20 in a used Comp-N-Choke..I will let you know if it works. 2 thumbs up for a Limbsaver pad...they DO work.

#9 Syndicate

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:17 AM

I'm using the buffer tube and putting a Graco rifle recoil reducer, a big ole mercury tube, I use one on my feather weight over/under that kicks like a sob and it makes a huge diff.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room," I'll be an elitist! (From Get Your War On!)
 
ADD is a hoax. There’s no scientific and then there was a car chase, and ooh, I gotta go pee, then this guy, you’re funny! Yesterday I lemonade

 

 

#10 Alaskapopo

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:07 PM


I read that a mid brake will not work ont he AKDAL due to the way the gas system works on it. (the port being further down the barrel than the Saiga). The problem being the comp will rob too much of the gas needed to make the gun function.
pat


go on firebird's website or search for firebird MKA 1919


Actually Jim posted that mid brakes won't work on Enos and that is where I got my information. Jim the owner of Firebird.
Pat

#11 PYRO

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:16 PM



I read that a mid brake will not work ont he AKDAL due to the way the gas system works on it. (the port being further down the barrel than the Saiga). The problem being the comp will rob too much of the gas needed to make the gun function.
pat


go on firebird's website or search for firebird MKA 1919


Actually Jim posted that mid brakes won't work on Enos and that is where I got my information. Jim the owner of Firebird.
Pat


You must have read it wrong,,,,,,Jim puts MBBs on most of his race guns. I have one on the MKA that I built and it work great.
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#12 Syndicate

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:18 PM

I thought they had a mid also
I guess those are higher up now that I think about it and look at them lol

heh oh well

I'm thinking to be a mid brake it would have to be farther back from the end of the barrel pyro

kind of like mid engine vs rear engine I guess lol
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room," I'll be an elitist! (From Get Your War On!)
 
ADD is a hoax. There’s no scientific and then there was a car chase, and ooh, I gotta go pee, then this guy, you’re funny! Yesterday I lemonade

 

 

#13 Syndicate

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:26 PM

http://forum.saiga-1...-fits-the-s-12/
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room," I'll be an elitist! (From Get Your War On!)
 
ADD is a hoax. There’s no scientific and then there was a car chase, and ooh, I gotta go pee, then this guy, you’re funny! Yesterday I lemonade

 

 

#14 Alaskapopo

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:41 PM




I read that a mid brake will not work ont he AKDAL due to the way the gas system works on it. (the port being further down the barrel than the Saiga). The problem being the comp will rob too much of the gas needed to make the gun function.
pat


go on firebird's website or search for firebird MKA 1919


Actually Jim posted that mid brakes won't work on Enos and that is where I got my information. Jim the owner of Firebird.
Pat


You must have read it wrong,,,,,,Jim puts MBBs on most of his race guns. I have one on the MKA that I built and it work great.


I will answer a few MKA questions here.
Lets start with recoil, In the Saiga the gas system is shortened, this allows porting closer to the chamber.
Being able to dump so much energy early in the cycle when pressure is still quite high, results in the low felt recoil.

Its not an issue of the comp being better, you can take them off and still have about the same recoil.

The MKA design does not allow a shortened gas system, and it has a long pressure dwell time to cycle correctly.
This and other issues prevent ports or comps from being placed very far back on the barrel, so they are less effective.

The biggest issue I see with the Saiga is maintainability, NO major components are available!
I know several people who have broken bolt carriers, and have had to buy a new gun just for parts.
I also know a number of people that have run various Saigas for many years with HIGH round counts that have had to repeatedly replace battered and worn out guns.
With a cost north of $3000.00, no replacement parts and a rather short life span, I was unwilling to continue manufacturing them.

The MKA has is own list of shortcomings, but parts availability is not among them.
And most of the top issues in the MKA have been addressed or are being addressed.
You have to keep in mind the Saiga has been here for well over 20 years, I have been building MKAs for one year.
In the next year many new things are going to happen with the MKA, that will eclipse what has come before.

Please don't get the wrong idea about what I am saying here, both guns are highly capable, and well suited to competition.
Its just a simple evaluation, In my opinion the Saiga has come about as far as it can, and the MKA has a bright future in respect to where it is now.

Time will tell...I am just getting started
Jim
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#15 Redhunter2486

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 05:28 PM

I have the enidine buffer tube on mine and am very happy with it, the enidine is different than the spring only buffer designs, it is also a mercury tube- it combines spring and hydrolic recoil reducing properties very well. It doesn't bounce as much as the mako stock that my dad has on his saiga and reduces the recoil just as effectively. The cons of it are that its $100 just for the tube and its a little heavier than a reg tube, if weights an issue.

#16 pickpocket

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 07:00 PM

Hokay.

Use google like this " forum.saiga12.com muzzle brakes"

Enidine shotstock vs. Pheonix vs. whatever which is best. There are eleventy threads like that.

Bottom line. Everyone likes whatever they own. Whatever I have is better than whatever you have. blah blah.
i hear you thats why i have been trying and reading and reading and all you can do is make a educated guess and hope it works for you.

I think all the technologies are good and help, but the easiest, most effective and cheapest is what people tend to do last because tactical he-men are too cool for recoil pads.
Well i am not a tacticool he man. i have surgery and with my metabolism i cant gain weight if i try and i am 145 soaking wet. thats why its important to me. So i am going to try the limbsaver and work my way forward.

Start with a basic good recoil pad. Next simple step is probably something like JT comp/, tromix mini monster, shark, RJF mojo, Chaos warthog, or whatever. If all you do is dump birdshot, think about getting a choke instead. Compensators help with the light loads but they are a smaller help with weaker ammo. With the heavy stuff, the quality starts to show.

Click here Conversion Parts List - forum.Saiga-12.com It lists most every new fad part at the time that particular new guy was sitting in your shoes. I'd like to actually update it and clean up the list.

Answering all your questions now

mid barrel break This is for a professional installation or pro level skills. You need to do serious machining to your gas system to make these work. Probably worth it if you do all the other stuff though. I'd like a couple, and internal choke threads.
breacher break Which one? Some are good, many suck. Most of the ones worth getting cost around $85
This is what i am talking about i want stuff that works dont really care about tacticool junk and to me it looks like ppl just put them out for the cool aspect. Only functional parts on my gun's.

FAB GL-Stock One of the 2 or 4 popular revolutionary unique one of a kind technology pogo sticks. Springs absorb kick then kick back a little . they can pinch you depending on length of pull and cheek weld. Also most of these don't have room to squish down on the shortest setting or two. People either love or hate pogo stick stuff. People who like to hold the gun tight lose the benefit. Long armed guys who like a long stock may get the advantage. Think i will pass on this one.

ITT Shot Shock Shotgun Recoil Buffer One of the 2 or 4 popular revolutionary unique technology pogo sticks. Springs absorb kick then kick back a little . they can pinch you depending on length of pull and cheek weld. Also most of these don't have room to squish down on the shortest setting or two. People either love or hate pogo stick stuff.

Ditto Pheonix kick-light.

ditto knocks stock
KNocks is crap, i have shot it. So i guess all the spring version are in void for me.

Ditto Mako pogo.

See also Enedine magical Money tube.™ FYI the more hype they give a simple moving weight or spring, the less respect I have for a company. Not saying springs don't work just saying they aren't such a stunning development. Your car has springs to absorb impact too, but they use gas pistons to reduce rebound.

Moving weight systems such as Dead-Mule and mercury tubes work, but they add weight. Mercury doesn't have rebound issues.

Going to read up on the mercury tubes.

From what i have found is that a mid barrel break seems to be the best for recoil. But what about barrel breacher breaks? There are probably 3 huge active threads on this topic right now. look in the upper right. Click the [new content] button and go back in the first 3 pages and you will find at least 2 of them.
What if you used both breaks at the same time? Law of diminishing returns. They need gas pressure to work. The first few holes in the barrel vent the pressure, so you can only get real effect from compensators that are close together. i.e. double mid barrel.
What if you use the GL-stock with ITT recoil buffer? -They are doing the same job. If you put them together you have made a longer spring. if you collapse them down you have made a low tech shock absorber that bottoms out.
Hell what if you used all four?!?!?lol some people have done that sort of thing. Since some of those are squishy, they both collapse into the same space, so you don't gain much and might pinch yourself.

In a sense I have something in each of the areas you can mess with. 1) pad that hits your shoulder with rubbery stuff or a spring. 2) Use gas at the front to cancel some of the rearward thrust 3) adjust the gas system so as to spread the cycling force out over time. (auto plug)+ AK buffer Fine timing tuning is the next level past mine. 4) use moving weights to transfer the energy. Mercury for me.

Look at the products you listed and determine which of those things each part is supposed to do. 3 parts with the same job may not offer perceptible improvement.

1.Whats the best mid barrel break? Dunno. Wish I did. The original was WAKAL dreadnought. They work. several shops that used to install them, make their own versions now. Obviously they are going to think their version is better. I have never seen of a close direct comparison. Really they require enough changes to the gun, that a controlled comparison would require building 3 otherwise identical $3000 guns from the ground up.
2.Whats the best breacher break?There is not currently a single person who has the ability to give you a meangful answer to this, and 3 active threads where people who have tried one or two compete to shout the loudest.
3.Whats are your thoughts on the recoil buffer and gl-stock. I'd go a different route. A single good recoil pad such as kickeez or limbsaver is probably a better choice. I chose to make a folder with kickeez and a C&H mercury tube. Here's how: http://forum.saiga-1...a-modern-touch/ think i am going to go this route thanks for your time.


Edited by pickpocket, 30 October 2012 - 07:01 PM.


#17 Montana3gunner

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 07:55 PM

See my post from my review after having shot the MKA at the MGM Iron Man.

I use a "Dial a Duck" Aka an adjustable choke, with the comp. I called the company, they promised about 18% reduction in recoil, and I think that was about accurate.

A better pad will help quite a bit.

I am only using mine for competition, so weight is not an issue. Therefore, I weighted mine down about 2.5 lbs. That eliminated the recoil issues. Now, even heavy loads are fairly comfortable.
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#18 GunFun

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:26 PM

glad to help. Since you have an MKA, I'd just get either a limbsaver or Kickeze pad and saw a bit off of your buttstock to make up for the length. If you want a collapsible AR stock, anyway, that opens up your options a bit for ready fit options. Limbsaver makes a pad that snaps onto standard CAR stocks, and one specifically for magpul stocks.

I hadn't heard anyone other than the above poster say anything about polychokes doing anything for recoil. I'd like a chance to test that and see.

I was thinking mostly in terms of products available for saiga 12. I belive MKA uses remchoke threads. If so, there are many screw in chokes with built in Cuts style compensators, or holes on them. They might help a little, but they have very little surface area to direct the gasses. Further, most of them have rotational symmetry in the placement of the holes, which means however much they might help or not help with recoil, they will do nothing for muzzle flip. For that reason, I would be more inclined to go with tromix's MKA comp which sleeves on and internal screw in chokes, or Firebird's not quite mid barrel comp. I have no way of knowing which performs better, but they are probably both decent choices.

Firebirds would require holes drilled in your barrel, but would give you greater freedom of choke selection. For the tromix, I believe but am not certain, that you can screw in chokes through them, but need a longer choke wrench. Tromix sells one, and the wrenches would be very easy to make. Some extended chokes or rifled chokes might not fit trough the i.d. of the tromix shark. The tromix comp is not a permanent mod. You basically are gluing it on with loctite and a tight fit.
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#19 Syndicate

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:34 PM

Gunfun and I have discussed much of this in PM hehe
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room," I'll be an elitist! (From Get Your War On!)
 
ADD is a hoax. There’s no scientific and then there was a car chase, and ooh, I gotta go pee, then this guy, you’re funny! Yesterday I lemonade

 

 

#20 Montana3gunner

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:53 PM

To be clear, I do think the Carlsons decreased Recoil the amount I described. This is entirely subjective. I did not test it scientifically, although that would be interesting.

By far, the biggest reduction in recoil came from the added weight.
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#21 GunFun

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 01:11 AM

FWIW, I'd listen to anything Jim above has to say. He seems to be the main builder of Adkal based race guns. His customers are happy with what he sells.
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#22 jim032374

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 03:03 PM

I'm using a DPH Billet Aluminum Stock with a 1.0" ACE Recoil ButtStock Recoil Pad. The recoil is minimal while shooting 1,600 fps Slugs, even after 80rnds. Also, I have a MAgpul MOE+ rubberized grip to minimize shock via the grip. For the muzzle, I simply have a Trulok tactical choke, more for looks than recoil.... I guess.

The ACE recoil pad is superb, is 1.0" of very soft rubber, but only compatible with ACE, DPH, Tromix, CSS Raptor, and RJF buttstocks.




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