Shells For Cheap - Reloading

[Squishy 1,149]

This thread will hopefully be a continuation of the "Slugs For Cheap" thread which judging by comments made was helpful to a few 12 gauge shooters. As in the SFC thread I will supply the cluelessness and hopefully I will learn how to feed the beast (The Mighty Saiga 12) for cheap by loading from scratch, nothing but an empty hull.

 

I've done quite a bit of reading both here and out on the net as I believe in doing my due diligence rather than just asking for information while making no effort to educate myself.

 

Doing the birdshot replacement does have it's limitations most probably in performance as the bottom line is by taking a load and placing it in a shell it was not designed for best results cannot be achieved.

 

As I write this I'm on the road visiting relatives but I brought all my tools for reloading (Lee Load All II) and casting slugs along with a modest supply of lead ingots. I was told around a keg a couple of nights ago that I can get copious amounts of wheel weights but I don't know if that is true or if it was the draft beer talking. I have two dates set up to go to the country and shed lead most of which will be unaltered Walmart bird shit. I'll probably end up with around 1,000 empty hulls before it's over with at least half of which will be Federal Game Loads with the paper based hulls. I have yet to buy the rest which I'm most likely going to do tomorrow.

 

I would normally mail order what I need but since I need the stuff now and don't know where I'll be for sure until I get back to the home stump I'm going to try and buy from a store locally. There's a Gander Mountain store in Greensboro so I thought about checking it out Thursday.

 

So here's the thing, I've made about 200 Birdslugs since I've been here but I still have roughly 250-300 Lee 7/8 oz slugs and I want to reload them into empty hulls. And like I said, I have my melter and new Lee 1 oz mold so I can make more.

 

One comment I've read repeatedly is to use the reload data for the hulls you have but correct me if I'm wrong, bulk hulls don't show up on these tables. Now there may be something that does show that's essentially identical to them but I don't know that for sure. So it's hard to use the tables when certain components are unknown.

 

I think it's clear that I'll need the Fed 209A or Win 209 primer but as for the wad, powder type and amount and any shot card I'll need I have no clue.

 

Can anybody hook a brother up with a recipe for reloading the Fed paper base 2 3/4" hull using a Lee 7/8 oz and 1 oz slugs?

 

Once I get off the road I'll try obtaining some new hulls to see how that works but for now I want to use all the slugs I have made.

[RED333 1,025]

Ballistic products is all I am gona say, learn the site, sign up for the e-mail.

They will send out sales info in the e-mail.

I use Alliant Green dot powder for all my loads.

I am sure others will chime in on other powders.

[rickyblaze 8]

Squish,

 

Found this online look at the table lower right : http://www.federalpremium.com/pdf/FP294_ShotshellReloadingData.pdf

[rickyblaze 8]

Sorry, page 3 lower right. It lists the exact shell sold in the walmart bulk pack.

[Groovy Mike 36]

Others will tell you that the sky will fall if you follow my advice. But I follow the lead of my reloading mentor who has been doing this for 40 years and it has been working fine for me for 20 years....

 

Most here will tell you that I am going to blow mself up - but I use the cheapest primer, hull, and wad in any combination I happen to have on hand. I only pay attention to the powder charge and shot (or slug) weight in the load books and ignore everything else. It works for me. Your mileage may vary.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Groovy Mike

[Squishy 1,149]

Thanks for everyone chiming in so far and I want to say that I understand if you give me advice based on your own experience I take that advice at my own risk. My results may be different and if I misread, misinterpret or just plain FU, I may have a "bad day" behind it. I hold no one responsible but myself. After all, we are talking about a serious subject here.

 

Thanks Red And Ricky for the input and Mike, in all the years I've known you I've gotten good advice from you in spite of your being a Yankee which I forgive you for without your even asking because I know it is not your fault.

[rs51085 136]

Ballistic products is all I am gona say, learn the site, sign up for the e-mail.

They will send out sales info in the e-mail.

I use Alliant Green dot powder for all my loads.

I am sure others will chime in on other powders.

 

good advice there. i use green dot too. its good cheap stuff.

 

Others will tell you that the sky will fall if you follow my advice. But I follow the lead of my reloading mentor who has been doing this for 40 years and it has been working fine for me for 20 years....

 

Most here will tell you that I am going to blow mself - but I use the cheapest primer, hull, and wad in any combination I happen to have on hand. I only pay attention to the powder charge and shot (or slug) weight in the load books and ignore everything else. It works for me. Your mileage may vary.

 

for the most part this is what i do. i find load data for the type of hull i am using and load it with the amount of powder they recomend for the weight of shot or slug that is going in it. fyi you will not find much info for reloading slugs easily. this is why i use load data for bird shot or buck shot loads. just make sure that the data is for lead and not steal.

[Groovy Mike 36]

Mike, in all the years I've known you I've gotten good advice from you in spite of your being a Yankee which I forgive you for without your even asking because I know it is not your fault.

 

When I was 10 years old, my parents sold our home in NY and were closing on a house in NC where we spent our family vacations. The buyer in NY backed out and declared bankruptcy pretty much destroying my parents' finances. They were forced to back out of the closing on the house in NC and we have lived in NY ever since. I was disappointed and sometimes wonder how life would have been different had we made the move..........

 

Of course our friends in NC told me that I would always be a yankee no matter what. They explained "Just 'cause a cat puts her kittens in the oven, don't make 'em biscuits."

Edited October 31, 2012 by Groovy Mike

[Squishy 1,149]

Of course our friends in NC told me that I would always be a yankee no matter what. They explained "Just 'cause a cat puts her kittens in the oven, don't make 'em biscuits."

 

I'm glad you took my comments in the spirit in which they were meant. While I am and have always been proud to have grown up in the South and to call it home I've been fortunate enough to have traveled extensively and met people from all over this, the greatest country on the planet. I must say that good people can be found from "sea to shining sea". And while the purveyors of mass media make more money on doom, gloom, and focusing on the worst of us, I know the reality is that the good far outweighs the bad. I think we tend to forget this.

[Squishy 1,149]

I've found a local source for supplies, Gander Mountain specifically. I think I can safely say I'll be using Win 209 or Fed 209A primers, green dot powder but I need a clue about the wads and most importantly which bushing to use in the Load All. Ricky I assume the info you pointed to shows what the breakdown is for the factory loads or if you wanted to put exactly the same load back in the shell. In this case I'll be taking the hulls and putting a lighter payload (7/8 oz Lee Slug) back in which I'd think would dictate a different wad and a different amount of powder.

 

Here is the table from the Lee Mold with data for 7/8 oz and 1 oz slugs;

 

 

Any substitution recommendations?

[gunfun 3,931]

The Federal bulk hulls are called Federal fiber base 2 3/4" on some tables, and Federal 2 3/4" game hulls in Lyman's manual. Federal Gold medal are different hulls.

I haven't found the winchester cheapies in the tables.

[RED333 1,025]

Here ya go Squishy

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/LA1071.pdf

[Rottieman33 90]

try here

http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp

[Squishy 1,149]

Here ya go Squishy

http://www.leeprecis...ruct/LA1071.pdf

 

Not seeing 12 gauge in this doc, what am I missing?

 

try here

http://data.hodgdon....tshell_load.asp

 

Ok, I can select (1), (2) and (3) but when I get to the shell I'm not seeing anything that corresponds to any of the bulk shells (Win Universal or Federal Field & Target - Multi Purpose unless "2 3/4" Winchester Compression - Formed AA & HS Type Plastic Shells" works for the Win Bulk).

 

Then only Hogdon Universal or HS-6 powder works.

 

This is the problem. If I could select any hull on the Lee table (which I will in the future but for now I want to reload the bulk birdshot shells) it would be straight forward.

[RED333 1,025]

Look at the 2nd page.

You have to know what powder and how many grans you want.

The bold number is the bushing number, the number right below that are the amounts

of that brand of powder it will drop.

Alliant Green Dot will drop 12.3 grans with the .095 bushing.

it will drop 25.7 with the .198 bushing.

[Squishy 1,149]

Look at the 2nd page.

You have to know what powder and how many grans you want.

The bold number is the bushing number, the number right below that are the amounts

of that brand of powder it will drop.

Alliant Green Dot will drop 12.3 grans with the .095 bushing.

it will drop 25.7 with the .198 bushing.

 

How do I know how many grains I need for a given hull, specifically one that's not on any of the charts, tables etc. i.e. Win Universal or the Federal Game Loads although GunFun offered some insight as to how the Fed hulls might be seen on some charts. I understand now what you are showing me, how to determine which bushing to use for a given grain count using a given type/brand of powder.

 

But the question remains, how to determine the grain count for the bulk shells using the Lee 7/8 oz slug. It seems like it should be simple but I guess the fact these bulk shells don't show on the charts everyone uses is gumming up the works. I could simply duplicate the factory specs but in most cases they are for a 1 1/8 oz payload. Couldn't better performance be obtained with an amount of powder and wad better suited to a payload that's 1/4 oz lighter?

 

I'm going to stop by Gander Mountain tomorrow but I'm not sure what I need to get aside from the 209 primers, and Green Dot powder. I'm going to take some empty bulk shells and a 7/8 slug with me and maybe from this I can figure out what Wads I need.

 

Oh, and for the record if anyone says "This is how I reloaded these hulls" I don't see this as giving advice or accepting legal liability. This may not be an issue here but if it is, I publicly state that I will hold anyone giving input harmless regarding what the outcome might be if I use said information.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Squishy

[rs51085 136]

Oh, and for the record if anyone says "This is how I reloaded these hulls" I don't see this as giving advice or accepting legal liability. This may not be an issue here but if it is, I publicly state that I will hold anyone giving input harmless regarding what the outcome might be if I use said information.

 

To answer your question this is how i reload federal bulk pack. This is for a 1 oz slug but you could use the same source i used for load data below. They have data for 7/8 oz listed. they refer to the federal bulk pack hulls as paper base hulls if it helps you find the data.

 

 

for 1 oz lee slug

i use the 171(22 grains) bushing with green dot powder

federal paper hull (bulk pack) you can see the paper at the bottom of the hull inside

federal 209 a primer

1/8" 20 gauge nitro card under the slug for spacing

and federal 12s4 wad

 

This makes it go about 1300 fps and it is accurate.

 

This is where i got the load data from:

 

http://www.alliantpo...ge=12&gtypeid=3

Just select federal 12 ga 2 3/4 paper target shells and the weight of slug you are using. then go nuts. EDIT: I just checked this chart for 7/8 load data and while they do have some data it does not list green dot for 7/8 ounce payload. strange it does for 1 oz.

 

Here is a thread on payload substitution you should read that explains why it is safe to substitute slugs for shot load data.

http://castboolits.g...ad.php?t=107590

 

This is the load i have been using for the last year 1000+ slugs and i love it. It is accurate and has just enough recoil to reliably cycle my saiga 12.

 

Here is a thread i started a year ago on about the same topic. It shows how clueless i was when i started and where i got some if the info that helped me out. Pay close attention to every thing turbo 1889 says. he is the man.

 

http://forum.saiga-1...ndation-please/

 

Hope this helps.

Edited November 1, 2012 by rogers

[Squishy 1,149]

Thanks for the input Rogers. I'm going to read through the links you provided. I was in a couple of different stores today or gun shops I should say that had some reloading supplies. But they'd have one thing but not the other and I don't want to get into substitution unless I'm sure it will work. So I think I'm going to wait until I'm back home and just order what I need from Ballistic Products.

[Squishy 1,149]

Here's a question. Do those of you who order powder and primers from the web find that generally speaking it is still cheaper than "retail" given the product price, shipping and hazmat fees?

 

ADD: FWIW I see that you can order no more than 32lbs under a single hazmat fee so in the case of Alliant that would be 4 - 8lb jugs. Primers would be under the same fee but the total can be more more than 70lbs...can't imagine this being a problem as 32lbs of primers would last a looong time.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Squishy

[patriot 7,197]

...if you buy in bulk.

[rs51085 136]

Here's a question. Do those of you who order powder and primers from the web find that generally speaking it is still cheaper than "retail" given the product price, shipping and hazmat fees?

 

Yes but I buy at least 8 lbs of powder at a time. If you buy powder and primers at the same time some places will combine the hazmat fee and some won't. I order from nanchezz. They had the best prices at the time but that was a year ago. They only charged me one 25$ hazmat fee for as many powder and primers I could order up to 48 lbs. The last time I ordered I got enough stuff for roughly 3000 shells so it does require a big commitment to save money in the long run.

 

Edited November 1, 2012 by rogers

[RED333 1,025]

I buy my hulls and wads on line.

Powder and primers local, I have a whole saler that cuts a deal for bulk.

[Squishy 1,149]

I'll get at least 16 lbs maybe 24...the primers, wads, shot cards will add up but I'll get what I can out of that Hazmat charge.

[msrdiver 42]

Squishy,

 

I ordered 16 lbs of powder and several thousand primers once. I instructed the package to be held at the UPS depot. Imagine my surprise as I arrived home to find all that on my front porch. BTW I am in an urban environment with city buses rolling 25 feet from my house. Big ol boxes labeled HAZMAT and just sitting there on the porch. UPS also left my S-12 on the porch after being instructed to hold it at the depot.

 

I hope you have good and understanding neighbors who'll hold your packages fer ya since UPS won't.

 

Order your stuff all at once and pay just one HAZMAT fee. This may mean comiting to a powder for multiple loads. I gave away almost 4 lbs of Clays because it sucked for buckshot. Sure Clays burns clean but the pressure spiked too high too soon for my buckshot loads. I'll recommend WSF for clean burn and multiple uses (shot, buck, slugs). If you intend magnum loads then Blue or Longshot are good choices.

 

Order more than you think as the supplies do go fast and nothing is getting cheaper.

[Squishy 1,149]

Hey I read the thread at the link Rogers provided to castboolits and yes, turbo1889 is most definitely the man. Nothing against the other folks posting in that thread but it was interesting to see T1889 call BS on a statement that was made (no small point either) and then get asked point blank to "prove it". And by God he did. I tried to read it all in detail but my brain started to hurt so I stopped...I did get a couple of important points through that changed my thinking, or enlightened me about this process.

 

As for shipping I'm fortunate to live in a good neighborhood and I've actually had neighbors bring me stuff UPS dropped at the wrong house. But I think for powder at least I'm going to try and order a fair amount so I won't have to do it too often.

 

When a rifled barrel is available for the S-12 things will get complicated indeed.

[Squishy 1,149]

Amazing what you can find down in the country when you start looking around. I think I'm hooked up with powder and primers now. While I have the means to cast 7/8 and 1 oz Lee slugs I've been looking at some of the slugs at Ballistic Products some questions have some up. One is, the "Sabot" round. Is there a downside to using this round in a smooth barrel or is it just not as accurate or effective when used in a smooth barrel?

 

I have a lot of other questions getting into this reloading thing but I think what I need is a good manual and I've seen a few...one that was recommended in another thread from Midway is no longer available. Any recommendations?

[AJ Dual 43]

A sabot round generally has to be used in a rifled barrel. The sabot itself won't make the slug unstable, the lack of spin will. A smoothbore needs the Foster type slugs like your Lee molds provide so that they have a weight-forward distribution in the tip so that they're aerodynamically stable with drag like a badminton bird or a dart etc.

 

One option for another weight forward design is the Lyman slug molds which are essentially an enormous airgun pellet in shape.

[Squishy 1,149]

Thanks for the input AJ although I was aware of some of the points about Foster slugs etc. I guess I just wondered for my own information what the outcome would be of using a Sabot slug in a smooth barrel and from what I'm seeing it would not do harm but would be inaccurate because the lack of spin would cause the round to tumble or whatever.

 

Another interesting thing I found...in the Slugs For Cheap thread I brought up the idea of drilling a hole in the end of a Lee slug to make a hollow point and the idea was said to be unworthy of consideration because removing material might upset the nose heavy balance. But I see these on the Ballistic Products site and I wonder.....

 

[Squishy 1,149]

I'm doing some calculations to determine how much of different components I'll need.

 

So if I have one pound of powder and the load is 3 drams (.0625 x 3) one shell will require .1875 oz of powder. Divide 16 by .1875 = 85.33 So for every pound of powder with a 3 dram charge you'll need 85, primers, wads, hulls and whatever overshot cards or other "fillers" the payload will need.

 

I ask to be sure as I am the side of the brain type person that liked to drop pencils and look up short skirts in school, I guess the right side. Math seemed like a waste of time...and then I figure out it's the key to the universe.

[rs51085 136]

Something is not right in your calculations i think. I just used a converter calculator to see how much .1875 oz is in grains and it said it was 82 grains. that looks to me to be way to much powder for one shell no mater what powder you are using. It is usually around 20 -40 grain depending on the load data you are using.

 

the way i calculated it for the load i was planing on using was like this.

 

1lb of powder = 7000 grains

7000 grains divided by x grains per shell= how many shells a lb will make.

 

so for example if the data calls for 20 grains per shell then 1 lb or 7000 grains divided by 20 gr per shell= 350 shells per lb

 

If your data calls for 82 grains or .1875 oz per shell then your are correct that 1 lb will make 85 shells but i think 85 grain per shell is not correct. check your load data.