Shells For Cheap - Reloading

[Squishy 1,149]

I started to think I used the wrong word here but I didn't, drams not grains, 1 dram equals .0625 ounces. The average shotshell charge is 3 drams right? So 3 x .0625 oz equals .1875 ounces. With 16 ounces per pound, divided by .1875 you get 85.33 Makes sense? 1 dram = 27.34375 grain, 3 dram or 3 x 82.03125 grain.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Squishy

[DNR 20]

I buy from SGAmmo.com - I have no problems with Sellier Bellot ammunition 12 gauge and it is the cheapest.

 

AVOID Dupleks' monolit steel slugs - while the box says 2 3/4" - they really are 2 7/8" - they will work in factory 5 rnd mag, but jam in ProMag 20rnd drum.

And steel slugs do less damage than lead slugs.

 

http://www.sgammo.com/product/12-gauge/250-rd-case-12-gauge-12-pellet-oo-buckshot-sellier-bellot-275-inch-ammo

 

250 rd case - 12 gauge 12 pellet OO buckshot Sellier Bellot 2.75 inch ammo $148

 

http://www.sgammo.com/product/12-gauge/250-rd-case-12-gauge-pmc-buck-shot-number-4-buck-high-velocity-1330-fps-ammo

$139 250 rnd case of PMC #4 buckshot high vel

 

http://www.sgammo.com/product/12-gauge/250rd-winchester-ranger-1-oz-law-enforcement-slug-ra12rs15

$179 Winchester 1oz slug 250 rnds

[Squishy 1,149]

Well actually I buy from SG also and I've used Rio High Velocity 00 Buck and it works very well in my AGP stick mags and so will DDupleks Monolit28/32 and Hexolit and Dupo28 expanding slugs. The Rio is the best deal at $110 for 250 shells. I have MD Arms 20 round drums but I don't use them nearly as much as the stick mags.

[gunfun 3,931]

Thanks for the input AJ although I was aware of some of the points about Foster slugs etc. I guess I just wondered for my own information what the outcome would be of using a Sabot slug in a smooth barrel and from what I'm seeing it would not do harm but would be inaccurate because the lack of spin would cause the round to tumble or whatever.

 

Another interesting thing I found...in the Slugs For Cheap thread I brought up the idea of drilling a hole in the end of a Lee slug to make a hollow point and the idea was said to be unworthy of consideration because removing material might upset the nose heavy balance. But I see these on the Ballistic Products site and I wonder.....

 

 

There are numerous fosters that have hollows in the front, but they tend to compensate by having a larger frontal area around the hollow, and thicker walls up front. If you look on youtube and google for test media recovery of slugs you will find that many of the popular slugs, including Winchester hollow point fosters tend to splat and turn into a doughnut on impact. They all seem to be tuned to penetrate to a fairly similar depth and there are a number of ways you can shape lead to do that. I think hollow points in fosters serves about the same purpose as angled rifling versus straight, or rings. It works the same but it sounds like it might work better, There are a few people who will buy the box of slugs that says hollow point over the one that doesn't.

Perhaps I have recently introduced some confusion in other threads. I'll try to clear it up.

 

Some of the confusion here is the term "3 dram". Dram Equivalency, the number you find on a box of shells, is only useful as a reference for how much a shell will kick (and effect a rule of thumb for what should cycle in an autoloader). It is a mathematical relationship between projectile weight and velocity. It was a system devised after people stopped using black powder for ~40 years to compare the power of modern loads to black powder loads that were based on an approximate measure of old formula black powder in drams (an archaic measure of powder approximately 60 grains). Do not use drams as a measure of powder volume unless you want to see what the inside of your barrel looks like on the outside.

 

Many people get reasonably angry that this number is used at all precisely because it causes confusion. A better number would be total energy in joules out of a 20" barrel. That would take all of the hype out of terms like "low recoil", "express", "Nitro", etc. However, until people quit being satisfied with vague adjectives and demand clear numbers, shotgun shells will be classified by dram equivalency, and the small 12fl oz coffee will be sold as "tall".

 

A quick look at a reloading manual will tell you with most modern powders, safe loads are between aprox. 19 and 37 grains or so and are very dependent on the choice of powder brand and each of the other components. It would be really dumb to try to reverse engineer a shell by weight or volume. They often use special powder blends in commercial loads that don't have a direct equivalent to powders you can buy.

 

As a reloading newbie, I have enough trouble trying to load a decent looking shell just using a commercial recipe or one of the lab proofed loads that were shared with me, that I don't have an intense desire to develop recipes from scratch. It looks like the most economical loads use very few grains of potent powder, and are the most touchy about very small tolerance issues. I think I would want a loader that was a bit more consistent with powder drops than a lee loader if I were to be basing my loads out of those. Most people seem to be advising me to use mid bulk powders as they are more flexible and more forgiving to minor inconsistencies.

 

 

If that is all confusing, sorry, perhaps approximately 12 Drams (1 Jigger) of whiskey may help calm you down.

[Squishy 1,149]

Well, it seems I drank a lifetime's worth in about 38 years so they cut me off for good going on 20 years ago but thanks for the effort to help. I see what you mean about "equivalency" and now that you mention it I am seeing the word in use.

 

For this purpose I was simply trying to get an idea of the other consumables I'd need to go with 1 pound of powder. So if I use the high side, 37 grains as 1 grain equals .0023 oz or .0851 (37 grains) then 16 divided by .0851 would equal 188 loads per pound.

 

So for one pound of powder I'd need 188 of everything...correct?

 

Oh and you simply will not let me drill a hole in a slug....

Edited November 9, 2012 by Squishy

[RED333 1,025]

This was posted before.

There are 7000 GRAINS in 1 POUND of powder.

Stay away from trying to use (oz.), use GRAINS to figure your loads per pound of powder.

34 grans sounds like way to much powder, the most I have used is 22 grans in a 2 3/4 hull,

use the bushing chart to get the right amount of powder load in your hulls.

[gunfun 3,931]

and verify a few powder drops with a with a scale.

 

Squishy- before you buy any powder, just buy a good reloading manual for about $15 and tally up the ingredients from a recipe. Then just buy everything off the list.

 

The slug guys on castboolits seem to think that using federal wads and a couple 1/8" paper spacers under the lee slug makes for a good load for smoothbore. Delete a spacer as needed to get the crimp right: Also some have had issues using the Winchester AA wad in straight hulls getting leakage, so they say for the federal cases federal or remington wads are a little better. I have Almost no first hand knowledge. But I have been getting lots of good help lately. I attempted #3 below and found that the WAA12 wads tended to crush a little giving uneven height, and screwy crimps. I think I will try to get my hands on some federal wads since they are a stronger column.

 

Here are a couple from lyman's 5th ed. Shotgun manual: pp 144-146 I haven't tried any and these are all for 1 1/8 oz loads substituting a lee slug for the shot. These are the ones I am planning to start with. I may move to using a load built around 7/8 oz capacity wads to eliminate spacers.

 

Each load below is for Federal Plastic Hunting Cases Paper basewad (Bulk pack, top Gun, Pink shells, and similar)

 

Slug sub load suggestion #1/2: Powder 23.0 or 21.5 gr WST (winchester brand), Fed 209A primer, Fed 12S3 Wad, 1-2 20 gauge card spacers to get the tip of the slug at the top of the wad +slug. Load is for 1 1/8 oz of shot. As long as the slug + spacers weigh the same or less than 1 1/8 oz of shot it should be safe. -Obvious disclaimer here-

 

Slug sub load suggestion #3: Powder 22.0 gr WST (winchester brand), Win 209 primer, Win AA12 white wad (not claybusters clone), They suggested 1-2 1/8" card spacers to get the tip of the slug at or just above the top of the wad +slug. Load is for 1 1/8 oz of shot.

 

Slug sub load suggestion #4: Powder 23.5 gr unique (hodgedon brand), Fed 209A primer, Fed 12S3 Wad, 1-2 card spacers to get the tip of the slug at the top of the wad +slug. Load is for 1 1/8 oz of shot.

 

Slug sub load suggestion #4: Powder 23.0 gr unique (hodgedon brand), Win 209 primer, Win AA12 white wad (not claybusters clone), 1-2 card spacers to get the tip of the slug at the top of the wad +slug. Load is for 1 1/8 oz of shot.

[rs51085 136]

This was posted before.

There are 7000 GRAINS in 1 POUND of powder.

Stay away from trying to use (oz.), use GRAINS to figure your loads per pound of powder.

34 grans sounds like way to much powder, the most I have used is 22 grans in a 2 3/4 hull,

use the bushing chart to get the right amount of powder load in your hulls.

 

+1

 

Just to slow things down a bit. have you decided on a powder? this would help you out a lot in figuring this out. depending on the powder you pic it will get you pretty close per shell on the amount of powder to use. Most powders can only be loaded with about the same amount per shell give or take about 10 grains no matter what load data you use. this is because most powders have pretty specific applications for payload weight and fps. to make it a little clearer. for example if you look at load data for green dot powder the most common load data is for shot weights from 1 oz to 1 1/4 oz anywhere from 1100 fps to 1300 fps. if you want to go faster than that or shoot a different weight you need to change powders. you can't just put drastically more of the same powder in there and get a faster shell. It might blow up on you due to burn rates.

 

As far as your calculations go I will just say this if you are not sure then just buy more of the cheap stuff like wads and shot cards and primers. the powder and lead is where you will spend your money mostly. And FYI do not buy knock off claybuster wads for slug loading because they have ridges on the inside of the shotcups. I made this mistake and now have 1000 that i cant use. I have to say for slug shooting the federal 12s3 and 12s4 wads are great.

 

and for what is worth for me with green dot powder 1 lb would load about 300 shells.

[DNR 20]

hey squish, Yea I run the Pro-mags. I figure out of spec rounds will work in stick mags. Pro-mag Drums (or MD20 as you guys call 'em?) have very little tolerance for anything beyond 2 3/4" - 2 7/8" will jam both mine.

[Squishy 1,149]

Just to slow things down a bit. have you decided on a powder?

 

Thanks Rogers, you've been a great help in all this and I appreciate it very much and yes, I need to slow down a bit here. What I actually have at this point in time is something you and I think Red recommended, Alliant Green Dot powder and Winchester W209 primers. I have a source for this where I can get good pricing and take physical delivery avoiding the extra fees so I wanted to try and get what I'd need while I can and then fill in the blanks (wads etc.) with stuff that will ship normally. I'm away from the home stump now but I will be back next week. And rest assured, when I get down to it I'll be very careful and precise. I understand that getting "creative" with this can cause "bad days" and that's something I'm not looking for. Thanks again.

[Squishy 1,149]

hey squish, Yea I run the Pro-mags. I figure out of spec rounds will work in stick mags. Pro-mag Drums (or MD20 as you guys call 'em?) have very little tolerance for anything beyond 2 3/4" - 2 7/8" will jam both mine.

 

The DDupleks and Rio shells are not really "out of spec", it's just that the specs are European. From my experience they are very good shells at a good price but as is fairly common knowledge around here they won't run in drum mags of any kind. Also the MD 20 drum is accepted as being the best 20 round drum made, created by Mike Davidson a forum sponsor. I'm not sure as to availability though, I haven't checked recently as I have all I need. The e-store on this site has some, find them here.

 

From what I know there is nothing wrong with Pro Mag drums though as they seem to be much less problematic that many of their various stick mags. I actually have a 12 round PM drum and it works without issues.

 

Here is a whole thread devoted to what will work with the MD20 drum and I'd assume it is valid for any S-12 drum. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/46189-md20-ammo-table-guide-pdf-attached/

Edited November 9, 2012 by Squishy

[Squishy 1,149]

Ok, the straight skinny on primers. Would you say it's a rule of thumb that you'd use Win primers on Win hulls and Fed primers on Fed hulls? What about "odd" hulls? I have some Remington Slugger hulls, and Rio hulls which I understand require a Rio primer, the Wins and Feds won't work.

 

I did some research on this and about the only notable thing I found is that the Fed 209A is a "hotter" primer.

 

Also, obviously I need a good manual, there are many out there and I've been reading reviews etc which is next to no help as one manual will have 5 star reviews and 1 star. What would you recommend?

[Groovy Mike 36]

Use whatever you can get cheapest They all go bang.

[Squishy 1,149]

Use whatever you can get cheapest They all go bang.

 

Ok, point taken but am I correct then in assuming from this that as for "fit" American made primers will fit American made hulls most or all of the time?

[rs51085 136]

I have heard that the rio hulls you mentioned and a few of the other foreign made hulls use a slightly larger? Primer and that the american made primers don't fit snugly in them. So that is the only thing I am aware of to watch out for as far as primers go. The fed 209a primers are supposed to be hotter than the rest of them but I do not think it is enough to matter in most cases. I am with groovy mike on this one they all will pretty much work fine.

[RED333 1,025]

Use whatever you can get cheapest They all go bang.

 

Ok, point taken but am I correct then in assuming from this that as for "fit" American made primers will fit American made hulls most or all of the time?

Get ya one of these, I use one and I can use a 209 primer in any hull.

http://www.ballistic...ctinfo/2301816/

Edited November 9, 2012 by RED333

[Squishy 1,149]

Damn Red, this tool is the Bee's Knees....never worry about a primer not fitting or, just buy one primer knowing it will work on anything, even European shells which are really well made. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

In GF's recipes above I notice the primer called for goes back and forth between Win and Fed...is the really necessary? Do you use one kind all the time?

[RED333 1,025]

If you want to keep things easy, just use 1 make and type of primer.

I use CCI 209m, it works well with the Green Dot powder I use.

I only shooot to have fun, I cant hit a fake bird(clay), and

dont want to try to get brtter at clays.

[rs51085 136]

that is a nice tool. I would have never thought they existed. thanks for the info!

[Squishy 1,149]

Yeah, I don't feel compelled to get into clay shooting. Thing about the Saiga is it's fun to shoot even when you aren't aiming at anything in particular. I'm sure all this could get complicated real quick if you let it but I'd prefer to settle in on a couple of good recipes and keep it at that. I've got some good factory "go to hell" shells for the occasional Werewolf, Graboids and of course, the Undead.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Squishy

[RED333 1,025]

I have had mine for a few months, it works great, bit slow but it does work.

I bought some primed Euro hulls from ballisticproducts, shot a few and used

the tool and it let me use CCI209M primer just fine.

[Squishy 1,149]

I finally went to the country (well I was already in the country but I went to a spot where I could shed lead with impunity) yesterday and had some fun shooting with my nephew and his buds. Of course the S-12 got raves and more than one "I need to get one of those" statements. One thing I wanted to share, I was in my main supplier of cheap shells and I grabbed a hundred round box of Winchester shells and I didn't pay close enough attention to what I was grabbing. These are 2 3/4 - 1 1/8oz - 7 1/2 shot...and here's what I didn't notice, 2 3/4 DR. EQ. After GunFun's repeated attempts to educate me about what "DRAM" actually means finally sunk in, I had doubts as to how well these would cycle. Btw, the Winchester designation on the box is "WM127" which I assume is a product number but in Googling it I cannot find a single instance where this number is used. So I'm wondering if it's one of those deals where these are made for WallyWorld only...or whatever.

 

Anyway, I loaded one ten round mag and sure enough I got about 3 FTEs. After that I let the "kids" shoot them and interestingly, not one subsequent FTE. I use a TAC47 Autoplug which allows cycling of the majority of bulk shells but I do have to avoid low recoil which is no problem. Your gas system may run these WM127s fine though.

 

I'm going to evacuate the rest of these shells and hold on to the hulls for reloading but I thought I'd give a heads up about these. All other things being equal I'd snag other shells for fun in quantity at least 3 DR. EQ. They're priced the same.

 

Oh, and there was Tannerite....and a small fire.....but it all ended without incident.

[DNR 20]

thats dram for powder -

 

"Some common sizes that you will see are 2 ¾ and 3. You may also find 2 ½ through 3 ¾. The higher the number of dram, the faster the shot travels. This also means that, the higher the number, the harder the gun will kick."

 

Since the FTE was with one person, I would check that you are holding the Saiga firmly - I notice people that hold the Saiga with a loose grip tend to cause FTE and FTFeed. (stove pipe, double stacked)

 

 

Tannite burns if you nick it, if you make a direct hit, you get a bigger explosion and no flameover. Avoid fireworks for lulz bad idea...

[Squishy 1,149]

thats dram for powder -

 

"Some common sizes that you will see are 2 ¾ and 3. You may also find 2 ½ through 3 ¾. The higher the number of dram, the faster the shot travels. This also means that, the higher the number, the harder the gun will kick. (and the better the shell will cycle in an S-12)"

 

The point in mentioning this is a heads up to those who grab inexpensive shells at Walmart for "Run-Fun", shooting large quantities of shells with the S-12. It is this, all other things being equal, price etc., be sure to grab shells with the higher DRAM EQ which will usually be "3". No point in buying lower power shells when more powerful ones are available at the same price.

[Squishy 1,149]

Ok, so I'm working on finding recipes to work with the Green Dot powder and some primed hulls from BPI.

Here's one for Fiocchi hulls, thoughts?

 

Alliant Powder_ Fiocchi-1oz.pdf

 

This is for 1 oz (Lee Slug) the only difference between this and a 7/8oz load is .5 grain powder, 7.8 is 22 and 1oz is 22.5

[rs51085 136]

looks good but I really don't have a lot of knowledge with any other hulls besides the federal bulk packs. I can get about 4 reloads out of the federal paper hulls. The plastic ones like are in that recipe you can usually get over ten reloads out of. I don't think the fiocchi hulls will give you as good a results since it looks to be a tapered hull and thus limits the type of wads you can use. It looks like you won't be able to use the federal 12s3 and 12s4 wads with those hulls since federal wads are designed to work in a straight wall hull like the federal bulk pack hulls. The reason i mention this is because it is a general consensus that the stiffer the wad column is the better the accuracy. here is a pic comparing the two types of wads side by side. the white one is a waa12. the brown one is a fed 12s4. you can see the column on the federal is much stiffer and designed to not collapse when fired unlike the waa12 which is supposed to collapse when fired. this affects accuracy due to how the wad exits the barrel. the stiffer the wad the straighter it (and the slug) will leave the barrel.

 

 

but for plinking you probably won't see a difference.

Edited November 15, 2012 by rogers

[Squishy 1,149]

I have 1K Winchester WAA12SL on the way also some 12S3 and 12S4. I'll compare the difference in how they fly. And speaking of scales to check the drop of the Load All...what is recommended? I don't happen to have anything around for weighing small amounts of powder.

[rs51085 136]

Any small digital scale that measures in grains will work. The one I have I got from my local gun store. It is an off brand but works fine and only cost about 15 bucks.

[gunfun 3,931]

I got an smart reloading SR750 that seems to work well enough. I had to send the franklin arsenal one back though. For shotgun, larger capacity would be a bit nicer, because you may want to weigh loads up to 1.5 OZ. One perk is that it uses AAA instead of stupid watch batteries.

 

It is also nice to be able to set a measured out shell and set it as the tare weight. Then you can check a whole batch of shells quickly for variance beyond a grain or two.

[RED333 1,025]

I started with a kit of powder mesures, ya know, like 20 little cups of diff sizes.

Made do till I learmed what bushing to use to drop the same amoumt as I needed.

When I started to reload pistol and rifle I picked up a Lee powder scale, beam type.(well came in the Lee reloader kit)

I have since got a dige scale.

I use the beam as a backup.