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Saiga 12/Vepr 12, less felt recoil?


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Just finished my 2nd. Saiga 12 (for competition).... Got all the goodies (magwell, polished trigger/bolt, trigger spring, DPH gas plug, etc). Performance has been 100% with 12oo fps shells of all varities, SGM 12 round mags are fine......(Only 1 match shot thus far).

 

I have a C-More and a side mount set-up..(Not too happy, would like to get it lower, not in use at the present time). I'm using a home made HI-Viz front sight... (it's o k for now). Like the Vepr 12 rail mount idea....

 

Is the Vepr 12 going to be more reliable because of its gas system/or/ felt recoil that much less??...(Worth the change from the Saiga 12)

 

I'm only interested in the gun's usage in competition, the last round bolt hold open feature would nice.... (I've read that the SGM mags do/don't/can't do this???).

 

Do you see Tromix or others adopting the Vepr gas system to the Saiga OR is this a non issue/nonbenifit/not possible/no gain situation????

 

Maybe this would be better placed in the Vepr 12 section????....

Edited by mikeAZ
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I cannot comment on the Vepr 12 (I don't own one) but I can tell you how I have my S12 set up for recoil...

 

1) I swapped the cheap Tapco pistol grip that I bought it with to a VLTOR EMOD with rubber pad.

2) Put a 14oz mercury tube in the back.

3) JTE brake on the front (the 9oz maintains a solid balance).

4) 2point sling (Viking).

 

My handguard is a Phoenix tri-rail, which is fairly light for what it is. You might have to adjust the weight numbers (like going with a shorter/lighter front brake, like the Molot or mini-monster or simple slant) to maintain a proper balance if you have a heavier handguard. If it is a lighter handguard, just go with the 8oz or 10oz mercury tube.

 

I had a recoil buffer installed but it kept giving me FTE's so I removed it. I think you'd have to swap the springs or otherwise monkey around with it to get it stable with a recoil buffer in. But with just those the gun is weighted/balanced and I can triple tap slugs while keeping them on target at 50 feet with no bruising or discomfort.

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Good input... I've put the limb-saver butt pad on the Tapco AR stock.... I'm using/like the Poly/Choke so I may just port the barrel.... Just wondering if the Vepr was going to be a BIG improvement?...Happy with the Saiga for now???...

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I have my V12. It is a punisher. You will be disappointed in it if you think it is going to have a soft recoil impulse.

I have my V12. It is a punisher. You will be disappointed in it if you think it is going to have a soft recoil impulse.

 

Self regulating...by beating the shit out of you to the point crying "mercy". ;-)

I can't wait!!! wink.png

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If you can't take the beating from the 12ga, Step down to the s20 or the 410. 021.gif

 

I keep one thing in mind, whats coming out the other end will and does hurt alot more then I feel. I'm all about the higher FPS and pressure I can put thru it. People say I'm a glutting for punishment but this is the largest gun I shoot. Other then that I have a 9mm, and 30-30. next on the list is a Scar 17s and a saiga 7.62x39.

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I have my V12. It is a punisher. You will be disappointed in it if you think it is going to have a soft recoil impulse.

 

Self regulating...by beating the shit out of you to the point crying "mercy". ;-)

 

For those who have tried both- is the same true for the 030s?

 

That's a disappointment to hear. I am sure the gun can handle the abuse, but I had expected the weight to compensate more.

 

Sounds like it's time for someone with a lathe to make a sliding weight and spring to go in the buffer tube, or for the ruskies to ship that part over.

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I said this months ago, but when I first fired my 030 I found it to have much more perceived recoil than my worked over iz-109. I prefer the adjustable gas system. It only took 5 3" magnum rounds in the 030 before I didn't have a desire to shoot them anymore.

Agreed. All of my refined S12s blow this thing away. The action does feel a bit smoother than an unmodified Saiga 12, but the recoil is horrendous. I am not one to usually complain about recoil and I am usually down for at least 300-400 rounds per session, but cut this session short. I won't fire it again until I go through it from front to back. From my limited time on the trigger, I already see exactly what I am going to do to it and at least one design flaw that is directly related to the S12. A few hours on the lathe and mill will yield the solution prototype and the answer to another issue. Two birds with one stone....

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I have my V12. It is a punisher. You will be disappointed in it if you think it is going to have a soft recoil impulse.

 

Self regulating...by beating the shit out of you to the point crying "mercy". ;-)

 

For those who have tried both- is the same true for the 030s?

 

That's a disappointment to hear. I am sure the gun can handle the abuse, but I had expected the weight to compensate more.

 

Sounds like it's time for someone with a lathe to make a sliding weight and spring to go in the buffer tube, or for the ruskies to ship that part over.

 

Gonna have to give me a few. My 030 and 040 are at Sierra Ordnance Company getting Leland's magic touch. I should have my dirty dick beaters on my V12 today!

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i just cant stop looking at sunnybeans avatar!!! holy shnikees!

 

Yeah--I would be concerned that what I wrote would perhaps be overlooked...wink.png lol

 

That said, I love guns and would be lying if I said I didn't want a VEPR--But honestly, my SAIGA-12 is all "I" need and the VEPR would be a toy. Still, if I had 1K to play with, I'd get one just because (I think most of us have a few guns in our respective safes "just because.")

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You guys sure are doing a good job of talking me out of getting one lol.

 

A gun that is bothersome to shoot is not a gun worth owning IMHO. Unless it shoots nukes or something. I want every gun I own to be tip top and feel like I can empty a couple hundred rounds through it without being beaten to hell by the end. In a gas operated gun there's really no value in it kicking you more - except if you want it super light as a carried/patrol weapon or something but there's better choices for that than an S12 IMHO.

Edited by dcgregorya
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Well, I have an S12 and love it; on low brass with a recoil pad it doesn't kick hard at all, very manageable and after 100 shells I still don't get any bruising.

 

From what I've read it seems like the VEPRs have a lot harsher recoil.

Edited by KennyFSU
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The worse they are, the bigger the contrast to what my end results are ;) They suck as-is, when it comes to user experience, but Saiga 12s kind of offer the same thing, but in a different way. If they were perfect, it would be fairly boring, to me. I'm good at creating intelligent solutions and implementing them. This is my kind of project ;)

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In my experience so far, the V12 has more recoil but to me it is certainly not harsh by any means and definitely manageable. Grandpas handloaded 3" magnums thru my single shot NEF 12g, now that is harsh, one of those and i was done!

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It seems to me that Molot designed the Vepr-12 gas system to operate correctly with less gas. They function more reliably than most factory Saiga12's because of improved quality control.This is why a plug is not needed to block excess gas from entering the gas block. They went with the maximum amount of gas needed to function properly, without causing it to be over-gassed when shooting heavy loads. Therefore, there will be situations when the Vepr-12 seems over-gassed, compared to a fine-tuned Saiga-12 where the gas plug has reduced the gas as much as possible, while still functioning properly.

Edited by varickm
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I know a lot of people view this as anathema, but these sound like a perfect candidate for a bolt buffer. Spend $10 to protect your $1k when shooting 3" shells. I know it isn't going to kill the gun, but that has still got to be a lot of hard hammering between the carrier and trunion. That impact doesn't help you any, so padding it only makes sense.

 

The Molot linear kinetic recoil system would obviate this, but if I was making one of those , the sliding weight would be sheathed in UHMW or similar for wear, lubricity, noise and to prevent peening where the bolt hits the weight.

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GunFun, several of us local Saiga-12 owners tried bolt buffers when they first came out and found them to be a good way to make your Saiga shotgun unreliable. During one match, my Saiga was getting constant FTF's and so was another competitor's Saiga. Frustrated over the malfunctions, we both pulled the buffers out and the FTF's immediately ceased. I've never used one since nor do I advise other to use them.

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GunFun, several of us local Saiga-12 owners tried bolt buffers when they first came out and found them to be a good way to make your Saiga shotgun unreliable. During one match, my Saiga was getting constant FTF's and so was another competitor's Saiga. Frustrated over the malfunctions, we both pulled the buffers out and the FTF's immediately ceased. I've never used one since nor do I advise other to use them.

 

Had the exact same issue. I think for those to work properly you need weaker springs or something because with the factory springs it just *barely* clears the action and I was getting FTEs at least 2-3 times per mag with the recoil buffer in and the gas turned all the way up. Removed it and setting 1 is just fine with 0 FTEs. I don't know if they make thinner buffers or what but the ones I got off CSS (the blue ones) didn't work for me at all.

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