hochst04 7 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 i got a saiga 12 with 3 gas ports that are clear. shots heavy loads; slugs and 00 buck with no problems( all on setting 1). it will even shoot the light loads winchester aa's and federal multi-purose shot shells fine on settings 1. but when i try to shoot the federal field and target on either settings get alot of fte. same out come when i try the winchester super speed which is only 7/8 oz ( the walmart crapy bulks).i just think its weird that one type of federal shoots and not the other the are the.same dram. oz shoot and both 7 1/2 shot. i guess my question is if i want to shoot this cheapo stuff should i get a kit from css which be a.new spring plug and gas piston to shoot this stuff? or should i.be looking into the gas ports im reading other post with mixed feeling on these kits where they saying just bore out gas port not to get kits what would you be doing? thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 I wouldn't do a kit. Last thing is throwing parts and $ @ it and it being a waste. How many rounds of the heavy loads have you ran thru it. I've got a 3 port and was lucky I had over 100rds of heavy hunting loads to work on break in on it. shoots fed find now on setting #2 and I can't wait to get my tac47 autoplug in and adjusted. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
OBITUARY 12 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 I'd polish the rails,bolt ,and carrier. search the forum . Clean the piston area up and gas ports and retest. There are plenty of Vendors here that perform that service also if your not comfortable doing that kind of work . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hochst04 7 Posted November 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 i had the gun given to me so i just did the conversion on it last week. im guessing it don have many rounds threw it. 60 slugs around10 rds of 3inch 00 buck. 20 rounds high brass two boxes of the.winchester aa around 150 rds of mixed light load crap. that i put threw it. so maybe still needs a break in. just wanted to hear opinion on the reliability kits. my gas piston does look like its due.for replacement. what should i get to replace the gas piston. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 i had the gun given to me so i just did the conversion on it last week. im guessing it don have many rounds threw it. 60 slugs around10 rds of 3inch 00 buck. 20 rounds high brass two boxes of the.winchester aa around 150 rds of mixed light load crap. that i put threw it. so maybe still needs a break in. just wanted to hear opinion on the reliability kits. my gas piston does look like its due.for replacement. what should i get to replace the gas piston. I haven't replaced my puck yet, but when I do it will be for 922r compliance. Give it a good cleaning and try again. I've gotten now somewhere in the range of 5-700rds thru mine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TORKIT 20 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 OK here's what will fix it, replace both main springs with performance springs from CSS, no more FTE's with low brass. And they're only six bucks each. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lewie212 37 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Personally I wont run anything but factory springs but that is just my 2 cents. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
OBITUARY 12 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 I wouldn't change springs either. I would do what I advised earlier as its the cheapest and most effective this will eliminate excessive friction that is very common on the s12. You can throw parts at it all day long and not fix the core issues . When you change springs and such you need to know what you are doing. Can cause failures , excessive wear, or make you limited on ammo choices. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Matthew Hopkins 1,065 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 (edited) way too many people that have S12 will fall for all the "snake oil fixes" being peddled. if yours is cycling the light loads winchester AA's and federal, stick with those. buying after market "snake oil" is just throwing money away. "I'm Matthew Hopkins, and I approved this message" Edited November 6, 2012 by Matthew Hopkins Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hochst04 7 Posted November 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 ok thanks for you input. so it sounds like every one saying keep running rounds threw it.till it works maybe a break in issue. or check with the gas ports. what size are the gas ports suppose to be on a 3 port gas system. and what size drill bit are people using to open them up? i may just drill them out just worried about getting the gas block back on. thanks for all you help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
OBITUARY 12 Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/50571-how-do-i-polish-the-bolt/ Read all of this good info. You can do a basic check of your gas ports using a paper clip , o ring pick or dental pick .If each is open it is most likely not a gas issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dayofruin 425 Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 I have a 3 hole 2008 model. I still had the occasional problem after the standard fixes. So... I drilled my ports out to 3/32 and added the auto plug. Now? No more failures. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 See the link in my sig line. Also make sure you have realistic expectations. A good general rule is that S12 should cycle anything 3 dram and up. That rules out most 7/8oz loads right off the bat. Also, don't waste your time with anything called low recoil. Pretty much the only reason people shoot 7/8oz loads out of a 12 is reduced recoil. You are basically shooting a 20 ga payload out of a 12 ga shotty. The standard baseline is a 3 dram load: 1 1/8oz of projectile (ejecta= payload, plus wad & buffer & weight of powder) @1200 FPS. Here is a reference table at the bottom of the page http://www.shotgunworld.com/amm.html Basically though, if you are shooting a light payload, it needs to be moving pretty high velocity.Lyman manual does not even list a dram equivalency for 7/8 loads in 12 gauge (see pg 102of the 5th Ed shotgun manual), but it looks as though roughly for every 1/8 OZ under 1 1/8 oz @1200 FPS you are going to need to have it moving another ~35 FPS faster. So a 1 oz load needs to be going at least 1235 FPS to run. The listed 3 dram 7/8 oz load for 20 Ga is moving @1320, 16ga @1310 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
msrdiver 42 Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 DRAMS? What's-a-DRAM? More seriously, DRAM is a throw back to Blackpowder days and should really have little meaning in modern shells. I'd like to see it removed from the labeling and replaced with more meaningful psi. My gun won't reliably cycle loads below 5,000psi. Thus I try and reload shells that generate pressures between 7k-10k psi. There is no good constant that can be used to equate DRAM with modern psi or even bygone "lead units pressure." After a good cleaning, shoot the same problematic shells and the same shells with a different production lot number. How deep the crimp was set that day can change pressures greatly. http://www.clayshootingusa.com/html/archive/aug_sep10/Cases%20and%20Crimps.pdf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
OBITUARY 12 Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 I like running lots of cheap ammo though my s12 cause I like to shoot alot . My expectations are real and my s12 runs fn awesome on all three brands of the wally world 100 round value packs because I put my research in and did what I need to do to it . I didn't pay for any parts other than an auto plug that's awesome. I've fixed others as well. Read up on the polish and profiling and gas port work Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted November 7, 2012 Report Share Posted November 7, 2012 DRAMS? What's-a-DRAM? More seriously, DRAM is a throw back to Blackpowder days and should really have little meaning in modern shells. I'd like to see it removed from the labeling and replaced with more meaningful psi. My gun won't reliably cycle loads below 5,000psi. Thus I try and reload shells that generate pressures between 7k-10k psi. There is no good constant that can be used to equate DRAM with modern psi or even bygone "lead units pressure." After a good cleaning, shoot the same problematic shells and the same shells with a different production lot number. How deep the crimp was set that day can change pressures greatly. http://www.clayshoot... and Crimps.pdf Yes it is a the nominal dram equivalence, is a nutjob system that was developed well after there was any need for it. However, it is useful as a frame of reference for relative total power. Yes, there are much better ways from a scientific stand point. However, if you wander into any store and need to know if a particular box of shells will run, it has a handy number on the lid that lets you know if your ammo will work or not. 3 drams or greater works. They don't have handy numbers on the lid of the box that say "Max sustained pressure over a period of 3ms or greater" or something. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hochst04 7 Posted November 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 my gas ports are .07 i took my gas block off ad measured it with a drill kit. the 3/32 bit was too big to go in the hole. i got three gas ports should i drill them at 3/32 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 way too many people that have S12 will fall for all the "snake oil fixes" being peddled. if yours is cycling the light loads winchester AA's and federal, stick with those. buying after market "snake oil" is just throwing money away. "I'm Matthew Hopkins, and I approved this message" "I'm the infamous evlblkwpnz .... and I approve that shit too!" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dcgregorya 5 Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 way too many people that have S12 will fall for all the "snake oil fixes" being peddled. if yours is cycling the light loads winchester AA's and federal, stick with those. buying after market "snake oil" is just throwing money away. "I'm Matthew Hopkins, and I approved this message" I think the problem is that people will drill out their ports or perform other permanent modifications before adjusting springs. Every change has to be tested and you should do the least possible - aftermarket springs have definitely given me issues in the past. As an example, a replaced main spring caused the bolt hold open to have too much slop and go up into my action causing the bolt to lock open. The replacement BHO with the notch cut I had to drill out for the axis pin because it wouldn't clear on its own. Had one failed retainer plate and another had to be drilled open to receive my safety. So every time you mess with something, you open yourself up to issues. However, I'd generally start with polishing/greasing then go to spring swaps *THEN* consider drilling the ports or adjusting the gas block. But any metal work around the gas system I would avoid until I had tried a weaker spring/piston setup. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ewoketeer 35 Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Rule of Thumb for an S-12 with 19"bbl is 3 ports at .093 (3/32)", 4 at .070"... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
45Bretired 19 Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 I say get the kit #1 THROW THE SPRING AWAY!!! #2 use the puck it rocks and keep in mind you may have to shave/grind a little off the nipple.#3 use th V-Plug. All this is in the kit. Remember #1 don't change your factory springs. If the gun starts to run perfect with the puck and V-Plug have fun playing for a while then go buy an Auto Plug. If it is still giving you trouble open you gas ports in small increments like one drill bit up each time taking very little metal and do it at the correct angle which means remove the gas block! It's not hard and it's really the only correct way to do it. #4 Have fun, if it stops being fun sell it to somebody on the forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dayofruin 425 Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I would not go replacing parts and springs made to cycle low power loads unless that is ALL you want to shoot. Polish your contact surfaces. Bottom of carrier, guide rails, contact points on trigger set. There are plenty of videos and topics on this if you just look around. If it still won't cycle the cheap bulk ammo......... Drill the ports out to 3/32. Replace plug with the TAC47 auto plug. Take a bulk pack of federal to the range. Fire, adjust, repeat until you're cycling the bulk at 100%. Then, pretty much all the rest of the hotter 2 3/4 loads will cycle without additional recoil. This was the process I used on mine. I didn't replace any springs or buy a vplug.... The Vplug is used to regulate gas WHEN YOU ARE GETTING ENOUGH TO BEGIN WITH. As far as I know (may be wrong) the Vplug will NOT increase the amount of gas you have. My gun functions 100% now. Hell, drilling the ports alone would have Probably been enough... But I do love that smooth operation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hochst04 7 Posted November 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 i drilled my 3 ports with a 3/32 drill bit and took it out and shoot federal and winchester bulk ammo shoot around 250 rounds. shoot great no problems at all. before i did the ports would not.eject any off these shells.at all. i shoot all these rounds as fast as i could just to try to make it have a problem. my gun was pretty dirty after that. but thanks for all your help and support thanks. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Wait-- lemme get this straight... A new guy came and asked the standard questions, and got the standard responses. Then he actually followed the advise and it worked and now he is happy? I'd say this is bizarro world, but usually I am the one with the goatee. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
akraider47 0 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Good topic! I need to try this as well. I have polished all the bolt,rails, and major friction surfaces with lapping and dremill. Three ports are open. Should be broke in by now. This seems like it could be the answer. Will measure first, drill, and then take to the range with a couple hundred rounds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dayofruin 425 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Glad you got her running! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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