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I'm not paying any attention to what is on that test site. Best to wait until it all shakes out. Hell they have a picture of an 8 rd S-12 mag labled as a 7.62x39 5rdr :lolol: My wife could have done a better job on a rough draft site for them. It has been stated in several places that they will NOT be importing shotgun mags over 5 rds nor rifle mags over 10 rds. I'm sure they added those pics to the test site before ATF came down on them and said no to hi caps.

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ATF has no grounds to "spank them" on a 10 round magazine. There is no more concept of a high capacity magazine anymore.

 

So, if the ATF said anything, then the ATF agent who said it is a felon. (10 years, its known as "violating someones civil rights under color of law") That's my favorite thing to day, calling government criminals felons... cause they are. They get too much respect for breaking the laws.

 

Anyway, if they use a 30 round body and a 10 round follower, then the person who modifies that follower is manufacturing a new magazine.

 

I hope there's some enterprising plastics maker out there who will make magazines for RAAC in the russian configuration.

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They do have grounds to spank them, but not on the high-cap mag issue. It is about a trade agreement between the US and Russia about importing military weapons and accessories. They can also use the sporting purposes test to hang them up on the high cap mags.

 

I am not debating the right or wrong of it, but those were the issues the ATF raised, not the mag capacity or AW law.

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They do have grounds to spank them, but not on the high-cap mag issue. It is about a trade agreement between the US and Russia about importing military weapons and accessories. They can also use the sporting purposes test to hang them up on the high cap mags.

 

I am not debating the right or wrong of it, but those were the issues the ATF raised, not the mag capacity or AW law.

 

 

+1. It is good to know there are some folks who understand the issues and reasons.

 

Now if the Russians will live up to their target delivery date on the Saigas we will all be happy. As far the hi-cap mags go for the .7.62 and .223, there are existing viable alternatives. Buy Saiga 7.62's from RusMil or convert AK mags or your rifle to use AK mags. As for the .223 there are four solutions. Buy steel mods from Hi Cap or you can convert .223 Galils, AK-74 Bakelites, or Bulgies in .223 for use.

 

We're Good To Go!! :super::super:

 

Wolverine

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They DO NOT have "grounds" to spank anyone. They only have the unlawful power to cut off imports on any particular item or declare any shotgun they like to be a DD. That is the power they use to manipulate stuff that is completely legal.

 

 

Well there it is. Legal or not, they can and will do it on a whim. And in a nutshell, there is squat that anyone in the gun community can do about it. So we either live with it and work in their system until someone with the power to make them change it does so, or we live without it (all the things we want from overseas). But either way, what can you do about it in the short term? Nothing.

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What can you do about it? Write legislators. Patronize freedom supporting businesses and avoid ones that support gun grabbing. Talk to people reasonably about why restricting guns instead of criminals does nothing to stop violent crime. Done be a nutcase about guns, because gun owning is the responsible choice, not the maniac's hobby.

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What can you do about it? Write legislators. Patronize freedom supporting businesses and avoid ones that support gun grabbing. Talk to people reasonably about why restricting guns instead of criminals does nothing to stop violent crime. Done be a nutcase about guns, because gun owning is the responsible choice, not the maniac's hobby.

 

I completely agree with you on all your points. But none of those have any affect on the ATF and their long history of abusing the little bit of power given them. They can still abuse it and affect what items and how those items, come into the country.

 

The only bit of letter writing success we have seen lately is that the ATF tech branch now has to video all tests, and test samples as they are sent to them, not in the manner they choose to. That only took about 15 years to get fixed.

 

I really wonder how they are going to abuse the new armour piercing tests on center fire ammo. I knew when the ATF supported the entire bill that it would not be a good thing. If stores loose money to law suits, that is less assets for the ATF to confiscate on a bogus or over-blown charges.

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"+1. It is good to know there are some folks who understand the issues and reasons. "

 

Hold off on the high fives there, both of you have it wrong.

 

The sporting clause isn't relevant to the question BECAUSE of the trade agreement with Russia, which, contrary to your assumption--- specifically mentions the SAIGA and the VEPR as being importable into the USA. And by specifically, I mean, by name. They are given as examples of non-military firearms.

 

Therefore, any ATF guy who harasses RAAC is violating RAACs rights under color of law (And is thus a felon) because what RAAC is doing is protected by both the second ammendment.... AND the damn trade agreement in question.

 

Importation of VEPRs and SAIGAs is protected by treaty.

 

Furthermore, who are we going to write? The president we have now is believed by most gun owners to be "pro gun" and he's done nothing but ban importation of parts for the firearm that is the subject of this forum.

 

Expecting the federal government to follow the law, or start following it, is like expecting a fox to leave the chickens alone AND become a vegetarian.

Edited by NoTreason4
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The sporting clause isn't relevant to the question BECAUSE of the trade agreement with Russia, which, contrary to your assumption--- specifically mentions the SAIGA and the VEPR as being importable into the USA. And by specifically, I mean, by name. They are given as examples of non-military firearms.

 

You might want to call the ATF and point that out to them. They still hold Robinson and the Veprs to the sporting purposes test, and while RAA has not said so, I bet they do it to them too.

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ATF has no grounds to "spank them" on a 10 round magazine. There is no more concept of a high capacity magazine anymore.

 

So, if the ATF said anything, then the ATF agent who said it is a felon. (10 years, its known as "violating someones civil rights under color of law") That's my favorite thing to day, calling government criminals felons... cause they are. They get too much respect for breaking the laws.

 

Anyway, if they use a 30 round body and a 10 round follower, then the person who modifies that follower is manufacturing a new magazine.

 

I hope there's some enterprising plastics maker out there who will make magazines for RAAC in the russian configuration.

 

 

NoTreason4,

 

I think you may be missing the point. The BATFE has approved the Saiga for importation as a "sporting arm" in a specific configuation and capacity. If the importer seeks to import high capacity mags or those readily convertable BATFE can reclassify the weapons as "non-sporting" and outlaw them from importation. There is virtually nothing the importer or we can do (other than vote) that will mitigate BATFE's power to create such distinctions and to approve or disapprove of weapons and mags at whim.

 

Fortunately we have found legal remedies for modifying the firearms (while complying with 922r) and acquiring or making hi capacity mags for some of our Saigas.

 

To be a felon one must violate a specific criminal statute on the books that is classified as a felony and be convicted of such a crime. I know of no such law as it may relate to either our military soldiers serving in Iraq or to the government creating BATFE and empowering and permitting it to regulate firearms. Certainly no one has ever been convicted of a felony for reasons relating to honorable military service in Iraq or the "proper" regulation of firearms in the US. While it is true that BATFE and the empowering officials are violating the Second Amendment of the US Constitution which is likely a civil rights issue, I am unaware of any criminal code or conviction that might apply. But then, I am not an attorney or an expert in such matters. Perhaps you can explain what criminal law applies and who has been convicted of the same making them a felon.

 

On the otherhand any soldier who fails to follow a directive may be prosecuted and convicted under the UCMJ. So s/he damn well better follow orders to deploy and engage the enemy. Likewise, anyone who fails to follow the local, state and federal firearms laws is subject to prosecution and conviction of criminal statutes on the books. The government via BATFE also can interfere with commerence in it's regulation of firearms by pulling licenses and certifications, and prosecuting those who either defy such a recision or attempt to enter into importation and sales or transfer without proper licensing, etc.

 

The bottom line, and as wrong as it may be, the government is regulating firearms and if there is to be a felony label affixed it will be our ass that gets tagged not anyone doing the regulating. :rolleyes:

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I would just like to take this opportunity to make my claim that I always do eventually. here ya go -

 

gun control is a violation of your constitutional rights. Ill say it again, if you can be a nazi in america, have organised protests against everyone that isnt like you, and spread the hate because of your FIRST amendmant right, can someone tell me how it is that THAT right and all the others are so clearly understood and clearly are not tampered with are somehow different than our right to bear arms?

 

remember, the government wants us all to be thier workers and pay our taxes. they want to globalise america, is what it looks like to me, and well, sooner or later the people are going to "refresh the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots and tyrants", and MY guess is the government knows it will happen eventually and refuses to be outgunned.

 

I cannot see any reason for tampering with the right to bear arms. You cant shut the press up, you cant shut the nazis up, you cant tell people that they cannot open a church or mosque or whatever, you cant touch the basic american rights. why is the gun right different? how the fuck does that bullshit fucking work is what I want to know. the right wasnt put into law in the first place to shoot tastey animals with. it was put there to kill your fellow man. there have ALWAYS been weapons of the time that were more deadly than other weapons of the time.

 

people need to move if they dont like guns. they are here to stay, and the illegal laws are only going to hurt those that follow them. criminals and militants are ALWAYS going to have guns of all types.

 

guns should NOT be regulated in any manner shape or form like they are now. they should also not be handled in the same manner and by the same agency that deals with alcohol and tobbaco.

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I'm not sure why you dragged iraq into this , but its irrelevant to the point so I'll ignroe it.

 

An ATF agent who blocks importation of Saigas is commiting a felony on two parts.

 

First the constitution says that treaties with foriegn countries that are ratified have the force of law. There is a law, with felony level penalties, for violating a treaty.

 

The treaty we have with russia allows the importation of VEPRs and SAIGAs. There is no "Sporting clause" test in that treaty, nor in any other law.

 

Secondly, there is also a law, with a punishment of 10 years in prison for each offense, that forbids any member of the federal government from "violating the rights of any citizen under color of law". That is to say, any "law enforcement agency" member who violates any citizens rights as part of their "job" is committing a felony.

 

The second ammendment exists, thus every employee of the ATF is likely a multiple felon.

 

That's the law. The reason I bring this up regularly is there is too much of a habit for gun owners to only pay attention to laws that work against them and ignore the law that supports gun rights. It is a very serious crime to violate someones second ammendment rights... and that it is not prosecuted shows just how unlawful our government is.

 

How you can support unlawful activities of an unlawful government is beyond me. RAAC is the victim, not the bad guy if hte ATF blocks importation of Saigas because they also import perfectly legal accessories.

 

And, I had to correct the fact that the treaty specifically names the Saigas and VEPR. The ATF cannot stop importation of them for any reason..... at least under the law.

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Hi Guys! Must have been a dream, I figured that Saigas would be availiable long ago. Looks like they are making some progress.

 

Soccer season is over, time to go shootin again!

 

p.s. Trolls are just misunderstood dwarfs, we just need to talk with them and feel their pain. There is a little Troll in all of us.

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I am in a real mood tonight.. as I am going to comment! Go figure... The wife already has me irritated to the point I am ready to go outside and kill something...

 

 

 

An ATF agent who blocks importation of Saigas is commiting a felony on two parts.

 

First the constitution says that treaties with foriegn countries that are ratified have the force of law. There is a law, with felony level penalties, for violating a treaty.

 

The treaty we have with russia allows the importation of VEPRs and SAIGAs. There is no "Sporting clause" test in that treaty, nor in any other law.

 

Secondly, there is also a law, with a punishment of 10 years in prison for each offense, that forbids any member of the federal government from "violating the rights of any citizen under color of law". That is to say, any "law enforcement agency" member who violates any citizens rights as part of their "job" is committing a felony.

 

The second ammendment exists, thus every employee of the ATF is likely a multiple felon.

 

 

Thats all well and fine... SO... whats MY POINT?!?!?

 

Get a FUCKING lawyer, and GO TO COURT OVER IT!

 

Then.... when you get done and have saved all of us oppressed gun owners, we can herald you as the new savior of our freedoms. And we shall salute you with barrage after barrage of machine gun fire in the cities of NY and California, as we all bring out our now legal to own guns of all calibers and configurations! :up:

 

Until then... your blah blah blah is as worthwhile to me as listening to the water drip out of the kitchen faucet into an empty dish...

 

Ya know... If I could DELETE *EVERY SINGLE FUCKING POST* that had law and politics and someones interpretations of them.... This ENTIRE forum could be read from start to finish in about 12 minutes.

And in those 12 minutes, you would glean some VERY nice Saiga information... without any rambling!

 

 

 

 

 

:smoke:

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I am in a real mood tonight.. as I am going to comment! Go figure... The wife already has me irritated to the point I am ready to go outside and kill something...

 

Ya know... If I could DELETE *EVERY SINGLE FUCKING POST* that had law and politics and someones interpretations of them.... This ENTIRE forum could be read from start to finish in about 12 minutes.

And in those 12 minutes, you would glean some VERY nice Saiga information... without any rambling!

 

:smoke:

 

Indy,

 

Yeah, but it wouldn't be half as entertaining. :lolol::lolol::lolol:

 

Wolverine

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