How important is a strong shoulder hold?

[corbin 621]

Hi guys

 

Many of you already know this, but I wanted to post this for those that didn't......

 

Saiga shotguns are very popular now, with good reason: they are very fun to shoot; there are tons of aftermarket parts to customize them; they can carry up to 30 rounds of firepower (I prefer 8 or 20); and using defense loads, they are very reliable.

 

For Class 2 manufacturers, being able to legally convert a Saiga to full auto turns this semi auto shotgun into a real monster. Yeah, you go through rounds very quickly and full auto isn't really that necessary in most situations.....but it's fun.

 

Converting an S12 into a short barreled shotgun (shortening the barrel) changes the ability of the gas system to cycle the weapon. There's up to 4 holes drilled into the top of a Saiga 12 shotgun. Hot gases enter these holes and press back against a piston that, in turn, pushes the bolt carrier rearward, cycling the action and ejecting the shell, as well as loading the next round.

 

When you shorten the barrel, the hot gasses don't have as far to go before they exit the front of the muzzle. So there's less time this gas is under high pressure and able to operate the piston. They call this duration of high pressure "dwell time". So what does this mean for the shooter?

 

In order for a gas operated auto loading firearm to properly function (whether semi or full auto), it requires enough gas pressure over a long enough period to overcome the weight of the bolt carrier, any friction it takes to move the carrier and the resistance of the recoil spring. Polishing the internals definitely helps against friction. So does using higher power rounds, which produce more gas. But what if you want to shoot cheaper bulk ammo?

 

One technique is to enlarge the ports in the barrel to allow more gas. Another is to physically move the gas block (where the gas enters from the barrel) rearward, which increases dwell time. Many of the higher end Class 2 manufacturers do this.

 

An often overlooked technique by many new shooters is giving it a solid base to shoot from. You've probably seen videos where someone "limp wrists" a pistol and it doesn't cycle. That's because the action didn't have enough of a foundation to push back against. The same is true for shotguns and rifles.

 

 

Let's see it in action:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2qFuS1JHjk

 

 

 

If anyone has any other videos that demonstrate this, please feel free to post them here.

[read_the_wall 614]

nice vid

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

This was the only time that I have shot my 8" from the hip. I just wanted to see if it would eject with Federal 8 shot 1 oz. in a MD-20.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J227HoWtlU8

 

ETA: I agree. Holding the weapon firmly toward the center of the chest and squaring the shoulders to the target will not allow the weapon to move rearward and absorb energy that would otherwise cycle the action.

Edited November 10, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[corbin 621]

Nice vid, evlblkwpnz

 

That a Tromix?

[45Bretired 19]

That's an evlblk Weapon not a Tromix. One of the things I do to any gun I build besides make sure it reliably cycles Winchester Universal Walmart Bulk Pack by the truck load is let my wife shoot it. She can shoot a pistol more accurately (slow fire) than I can, she is pretty handy with an AR Iron sights, red dots or scope hell she even shoots AK's with Iron sights pretty well but she just can't seem to get the whole get into the gun thing that's necessary with a semi auto shotgun down for some reason. Now she is 5'1" 105lbs so maybe it's that even low brass beats her up a bit. If it cycles with her I run a mag from the hip just to make sure. If all goes well it's ready to leave the shop and go on whatever adventure the owner takes it on through it's new life. So yeah it's important but a proper shooting good cycling gun should run no matter what.

Edited November 11, 2012 by 45Bretired

[gunfun 3,931]

Did you make that vid? The song was hilarious.

 

Answering your OP rhetorical question-- Of course limp wristing can matter. My thinking is that it shouldn't though in a gas operated gun. The gas should be doing 100% of the work. Obviously there are many guns that are marginal in their balance between gas force and resistence through mass, spring and friction. Those guns need a bit more foundation to work. To me, that is an other way of saying those guns don't work properly yet. Again, as you have pointed out, many SBS don't work properly by my definition. Move the gas block and do the tuning until they do.

 

Do you really want to rely on a gun that will let you down if you don't do everything right? I use good form and all that, but would I under stress for sure? I always think of Ed McGivern training the first FBI guys. They lined up the best marksmen and were showing off how quickly they could acquire and shoot targets. He walked up behind one of them and shoved him so that he fell down, and made him shoot as he laid. Slow. I'm not going to say that I practice throwing myself on the ground, but I would like to know that my gun would still cycle if I fell down, or if I was jittery with adrenaline, or weak with loss of blood, or even just sloppy. That's not too much to ask. The gun can do it with proper work.

[rnemhrd 165]

Gunfun, have you never heard Drownding pool's Bodies? Try chillin' at a stop light on a Streetglide with that blasting some time. I have my S12 set up to shoot held loose at the hip or shouldered, With the gas plug (V Plug) on the correct setting. I also have an Auto plug that has to be shouldered to function correctly, but off the hip it will not function 100%. Shouldered the Auto plug runs 100% all ammo. Not saying anything negative about it. It requires proper shooting form. At home the V Plug is in the S12 on setting 5 to cycle anything I stick in it and cycle it anyway I hold it.

[Fallschirmjager667 729]

This was the only time that I have shot my 8" from the hip. I just wanted to see if it would eject with Federal 8 shot 1 oz. in a MD-20.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J227HoWtlU8

 

ETA: I agree. Holding the weapon firmly toward the center of the chest and squaring the shoulders to the target will not allow the weapon to move rearward and absorb energy that would otherwise cycle the action.

 

 

 

must be some kind of sorcery going on in that vid, everyone on the internets says you can't hit shit with a shotgun from the hip

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Nice vid, evlblkwpnz

 

That a Tromix?

 

 

Here are a couple better videos for ya....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-ZaXQFGO78

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Be5TZAsUKs

Edited November 12, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

.... but I think this may be my favorite

 

[rnemhrd 165]

OK sneaky blk one, Why the is the trigger blurred out? I know you made a comment you doe'nt let no body look under your hood, but even the trigger is top secret?

Edited November 12, 2012 by rnemhrd

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

OK sneaky blk one, Why the is the trigger blurred out? I know you made a comment you doe'nt let no body look under your hood, but even the trigger is top secret?

It is sick. I have an eye for design and I am sure someone will copy it. The real secrets are within. If we don't get a more gun friendly government and a much more "business friendly" environment, those secrets may die with me. Oh well, at least I get to enjoy them on my personal weapons. Gotta look at the bright side

[Fallschirmjager667 729]

OK sneaky blk one, Why the is the trigger blurred out? I know you made a comment you doe'nt let no body look under your hood, but even the trigger is top secret?

It is sick. I have an eye for design and I am sure someone will copy it. The real secrets are within. If we don't get a more gun friendly government and a much more "business friendly" environment, those secrets may die with me. Oh well, at least I get to enjoy them on my personal weapons. Gotta look at the bright side

 

im going to make it a point to come down to florida and shoot that thing sometime next year, i'll bring plenty of junk ammo

[YOT 3,743]

 

must be some kind of sorcery going on in that vid, everyone on the internets says you can't hit shit with a shotgun from the hip

 

Hmmm..... That makes me wonder why the Dept. trains us in the "Hip Shooting Stance"?!? Could everyone on the internets be wrong?

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

must be some kind of sorcery going on in that vid, everyone on the internets says you can't hit shit with a shotgun from the hip

 

Hmmm..... That makes me wonder why the Dept. trains us in the "Hip Shooting Stance"?!? Could everyone on the internets be wrong?

Funny thing is that I hardly ever shoot from the hip with anything. It is getting to the point that a Saiga 12 feels like an extension of my hand, but with a much longer reach

[rnemhrd 165]

OK sneaky blk one, Why the is the trigger blurred out? I know you made a comment you doe'nt let no body look under your hood, but even the trigger is top secret?

It is sick. I have an eye for design and I am sure someone will copy it. The real secrets are within. If we don't get a more gun friendly government and a much more "business friendly" environment, those secrets may die with me. Oh well, at least I get to enjoy them on my personal weapons. Gotta look at the bright side

 

im going to make it a point to come down to florida and shoot that thing sometime next year, i'll bring plenty of junk ammo

Please check all recording devices at the door, and look at the red flashy thing on the way out. You had fun but will not remember. Edited November 12, 2012 by rnemhrd

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

OK sneaky blk one, Why the is the trigger blurred out? I know you made a comment you doe'nt let no body look under your hood, but even the trigger is top secret?

It is sick. I have an eye for design and I am sure someone will copy it. The real secrets are within. If we don't get a more gun friendly government and a much more "business friendly" environment, those secrets may die with me. Oh well, at least I get to enjoy them on my personal weapons. Gotta look at the bright side

 

im going to make it a point to come down to florida and shoot that thing sometime next year, i'll bring plenty of junk ammo

Please check all recording devices at the door, and look at the red flashy thing on the way out. You had fun but will not remember.

I can't believe I have to keep this much shit secret for at least four more years. Looks like I had better build an 8" SBS with minimal tricks.

[gunfun 3,931]

I recently heard a pretty good investment thing on the radio. They basically said, people who wait for the right political climate never start businesses because they make too many excuses. People who are going to make money are ambitious and make money whatever the market is doing. You can make pools. You started that business. If you want to start a gun business, then start it. If not then don't. Just don't be coy and tease for 6 years then never make anything. Particularly if you want to make claims about having the magic part you have to keep secret. I'll admit I am curious, but this all reminds me of people teasing drums, DS mags, LRBHOs,bull pups, etc.

 

I'm calling your hand sir. Start your business. If your stuff is as good as you think it is, you will make money who ever is president.

 

Tromix developed big bore ARs during the Clinton years after all.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I recently heard a pretty good investment thing on the radio. They basically said, people who wait for the right political climate never start businesses because they make too many excuses. People who are going to make money are ambitious and make money whatever the market is doing. You can make pools. You started that business. If you want to start a gun business, then start it. If not then don't. Just don't be coy and tease for 6 years then never make anything. Particularly if you want to make claims about having the magic part you have to keep secret. I'll admit I am curious, but this all reminds me of people teasing drums, DS mags, LRBHOs,bull pups, etc.

 

I'm calling your hand sir. Start your business. If your stuff is as good as you think it is, you will make money who ever is president.

 

Tromix developed big bore ARs during the Clinton years after all.

OP, I apologize for the thread-jack and I would like to see it get back on track after this. Any further discussion on this should be made via PM, if anyone would like to carry it further.

 

I am not doing it in the near future, which is good news to some here. I clearly stated that I was waiting until the election, and I did. There are now too many open-ended factors for me to feel good about doing it with the re-distributor-in-chief still at large. I am already stressed to the point of utter disgust when I think about some of the things I may be forced to do in the near future with my existing companies. I can't handle much more of it and am unsure about interest in where I want to go in this industry. It seems to me that the market, for the most part, likes styling that is far from my tastes, anway. If I have to build things that make me want to vomit when I look at them, I would rather not do it at all. I could elaborate, but I'd like to keep reading and posting from this IP. I now know how to make an 8" S12 run with extreme reliability due to the forced abundance of spare time to figure it out last April and May.

 

I have taken some potentially devastating but necessary gambles with both of my existing companies. I started the first about 1 month before the bottom fell out of the pool industry and I almost lost everything. Until I can have a somewhat clearer view of what administrative costs might rise to, I am not making any moves toward starting a new business. As a matter of fact, I am considering closing one company down and running that work through the other company where the blow of additional expenses can be shared with two partners. The dog is off of the chain now and he is not the friend of small businesses. The best thing businesses can do now is limit the risk of capital and limit exposure to liabilities, be it administrative or otherwise, and that is exactly what I am doing.

 

At this point, I think building a new home with no debt might be the wisest decision I can make while my connections in the residential construction industry are still in business and I have the money. Right now, I will save an extreme amount of money on new construction. After this is done, I may take some risks in other areas if I have the capital. Sorry, guys.

Edited November 13, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

GunFun I have my own LRBHOs in my guns and you don't! Ha ha!!

[gunfun 3,931]

You should convert them to cash in your pocket!

 

(the best form of alchemy.)