g21322635 2 Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 and bullet guide on new Saiga rifle? Interested to know. Tanks. Link to post Share on other sites
Matthew Hopkins 1,065 Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) I wouldn't charge anything, because I wouldn't do it. gunsmithing without a FFL is a felony. all it takes is for someone to "rat you out" if they get arrested and want a reduced charge. NOW, what I would do, if he is someone I know personally, is to have him come over with his parts and gun and I can instruct him how to do it, and he does all the hands on work using my tools. anyway that is what I would do, you do what you want. Edited November 12, 2012 by Matthew Hopkins 1 Link to post Share on other sites
fromxtor 20 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Installing a pistol grip is hardly gunsmithing, I usually do them for free parts and shipping provided. Link to post Share on other sites
Matthew Hopkins 1,065 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Installing a pistol grip is hardly gunsmithing, I usually do them for free parts and shipping provided. it simply isn't installing a PG, you are moving the trigger parts forward. but whatever, you guys do what you want. Link to post Share on other sites
mogunner 240 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Gunsmithing is not the same as manufacturing a firearm. If you aren't set up as an actual business doing it then minor smithing is allowed, and a conversion isn't as invasive and some might think. You're changing a stock and other cosmetic parts and moving the trigger group, you aren't fabricating parts or installing a barrel. Happens every day in cities all across the country. Link to post Share on other sites
Matthew Hopkins 1,065 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Gunsmithing is not the same as manufacturing a firearm. If you aren't set up as an actual business doing it then minor smithing is allowed, and a conversion isn't as invasive and some might think. You're changing a stock and other cosmetic parts and moving the trigger group, you aren't fabricating parts or installing a barrel. Happens every day in cities all across the country. I didn't say anything about manufacturing nor did I claim that moving a trigger group etc.. is manufacturing. you're the one that came up with that tid-bit, from where I don't know. yeah there are different FFLs, but gunsmiths have 01s, manufacturers 07 all I'm saying is that if you don't have a FFL, and you want x-amount for doing that, then that is gun smithing without a license, you're asking for money to work on a firearm. OP ask what would you charge for doing that work, and I suspect that he doesn't have a FFL. Edited November 13, 2012 by Matthew Hopkins Link to post Share on other sites
red308 54 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 If it was for a friend free. for anyone else they provide the parts and 30$ and they could pick it the next day painted and ready to go. Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 and bullet guide on new Saiga rifle? Interested to know. Tanks. I do it for friends and co-workers because I enjoy doing it. If they want to pay for dinner for me & the GF to show their graditude, it makes it even more enjoyable. Link to post Share on other sites
g21322635 2 Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 I was just asking what would be a fair price for someone to charge me for doing this while I am overseas a few months? Link to post Share on other sites
pjj342 632 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 My conversions are all the above plus cutting the shroud. Recrowning the barrel. Threading the barrel. Polishing the bolt. I change out the front site "stem" with a colored one of your choice. Orange, yellow, white etc. I then live fire sight the gun in @ 100 yards with whatever red dot/scope and iron sights. Give you the gun back with the paper target for $75. Thats a good deal Sarge, Im sure alot of other guys out there charge way more than that for what you give. But I ask with all due respect, why recrown the barrel? Is it a touch up of the crown with a brass ball, or a whole new cut crown? Ive never heard of this needing to be done after threading. To the OP question, 40-100 depending how in depth they want it done. 40 for basic conversion plus handguard, 60 with threading, 65-100 if they want their contact surfaces polished and a more detailed go over of the rifle, plus sighting in. 100 would be doing the things I have done with my personal rifle, which would make just about anyone happy. If your getting charged more than 100bucks for a full conversion plus some extras your getting ripped off. Link to post Share on other sites
The Sarge 34 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Many moons ago I had a guy that dropped his Saiga on a rock and boogered the crown up a tad. Had a gash @ around 3 O'Clock and was spitting fliers out. I recrowned the barrel with a 11 degree military crown and that thing shot lights out from there. So from there on out I have recrowned every Saiga every caliber (rifle) and they all shoot more accurate than stock. Why? I therozie the concave crown allows much less barrel turbulance in front of the muzzle. You get less "wobble" on the bullet as it leaves the barrel. I use a Dave Mason military recrowning kit. Had it for a long long time. Very easy to use and the carbide cutters last forever. Very clean and shiny cut.... Link to post Share on other sites
mogunner 240 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 ATF regs clearly say "engaged in the business of", not "do occasionally for beer money"...although I would err on the side of caution and not do anything that would require you to keep the firearm overnight. Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Half rack of PBR, or a Valuepack of Federal 12ga., or maybe a hand job... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
akastormi 617 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Show up... I'll supply the tools, you do the work. I'll tell you what and where, watch and jump in as needed. Bring your parts and a case of beer. Link to post Share on other sites
The Sarge 34 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 "Engaged in the business" is what is up for interpretation here. If I mow my neighbors yard 6 times a year your saying I am in the landscaping business? 12 times a year? How much of doing "something" or how much money needs to be made before you are engaged in the business? This has already been defined and litigated by the IRS for other businesses. You have to make more than $9K per year. Under that and it is a hobby. As for the ATF? There are cases on the books about guys buying guns, fixing, modifying and reselling them. They were charged with being a firearms dealer without a license. Outcomes of these cases are unclear. Probably a plea deal and no record. I dunno. I am a big fan of calling up my ATF agent I deal with all the time. He always likes free hamburgers and coffee anyway so it works out for both of us This has come up in our conversations. He shared a case he had with a guy and his wife getting a divorce. She was screaming he worked on peoples guns all the time and he wasnt licensed. Bitch. He checked it out. Yes the guy worked on peoples guns. Yes he charged them some money. Guy also had a full time job. He was justy doing this on the side for extra money. The ATF concluded he was not a dealer (reselling guns he fixed) and they closed the case. No action taken. Point here is he made it clear the ATF is looking for guys dealing guns (private sales) that clearly exceed just buying and selling guns as a private citizen/collecter and enter the realm of dealing firearms for profit. What needs to be understood is most of the "rules/law" are left wide open for interpretation. If you are the slightest bit concerned get your FFL. Easy as pie. Simple to do. Then you have no issues or worries. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
g21322635 2 Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Thanks for the information I will be home the new year and will keep getting things together on my end. Link to post Share on other sites
Bigtwin 219 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I would charge a few beers or some ammo(because I enjoy doing it), No law against firearms work or "gunsmithing" as it were. I am not in the business of such, and CAN do so and have the ability to do so! I have done much work on my own and many friends firearms. It is funny how some folks think there is some law floating about that prohibits working on firearms! Sure if you are in the "bussiness" of doing such, you need a bussiness liscense and an FFL license and an IRS ID #, but for those that think it is illegal to modify or work on a rifle without being an FFL....not so! Link to post Share on other sites
fromxtor 20 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Installing a pistol grip is hardly gunsmithing, I usually do them for free parts and shipping provided. it simply isn't installing a PG, you are moving the trigger parts forward. but whatever, you guys do what you want. I've done many my friend, I know whats involved. But in my mechanical field removing rivets, isnt a big deal. I also accept ammo as payment for certain "jobs" Link to post Share on other sites
muvef 3 Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 A case of beer would be appropriate. Just give it to him after the work was done. Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 "Engaged in the business" is what is up for interpretation here. If I mow my neighbors yard 6 times a year your saying I am in the landscaping business? 12 times a year? How much of doing "something" or how much money needs to be made before you are engaged in the business? This has already been defined and litigated by the IRS for other businesses. You have to make more than $9K per year. Under that and it is a hobby. As for the ATF? There are cases on the books about guys buying guns, fixing, modifying and reselling them. They were charged with being a firearms dealer without a license. Outcomes of these cases are unclear. Probably a plea deal and no record. I dunno. I am a big fan of calling up my ATF agent I deal with all the time. He always likes free hamburgers and coffee anyway so it works out for both of us This has come up in our conversations. He shared a case he had with a guy and his wife getting a divorce. She was screaming he worked on peoples guns all the time and he wasnt licensed. Bitch. He checked it out. Yes the guy worked on peoples guns. Yes he charged them some money. Guy also had a full time job. He was justy doing this on the side for extra money. The ATF concluded he was not a dealer (reselling guns he fixed) and they closed the case. No action taken. Point here is he made it clear the ATF is looking for guys dealing guns (private sales) that clearly exceed just buying and selling guns as a private citizen/collecter and enter the realm of dealing firearms for profit. What needs to be understood is most of the "rules/law" are left wide open for interpretation. If you are the slightest bit concerned get your FFL. Easy as pie. Simple to do. Then you have no issues or worries. The problem has arisen as business members who offer their services here on the forum pay for the privilege of doing so. You are not a business member, and some business members have voiced objection to you making money here without 'paying your dues' . It has nothing to do with legality per se. You need to appreciate it from that standpoint. Link to post Share on other sites
The Sarge 34 Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 As I am obviously not soliciting business, I assume your speaking in the generic sense, on some board rule, and not on the topic of the legality as it is applied by the ATF?. I dunno. Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 You are correct. You do however appear to some to be soliciting business. Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 A few weeks ago, I offered to help a stranger at the range do it for free. I gave him my phone number and he seemed excited. Haven't got the call though. He wasn't aware that there was the option of converting. He had just seen a mag fed shotgun, got excited and bought it and a case of slugs. ( I also introduced him to Setting #1.) I would think it is a bit close to gunsmiting to charge for moving the trigger group and drilling out rivets. However, I'd feel perfectly fine about charging to swap out furniture, install a scope, clean a gun, sight it in, install a recoil pad, etc. I fix guns by replacing broken or worn parts for friends occasionally. I have toyed with making a couple of parts that no one was selling. I have thought about making a jig and cranking out a bunch of hollowed out wood forends for the shotguns. I'd charge for that no problem. It seems like since it is kind of a hobby, I'd ask for cost of parts plus $15-25/hr depending on the job and who it was for. Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 You guys want to take it private and negotiate some work, go ahead, but to actively solicit business without becoming a business member is unacceptable so far as the forum goes. Thread closed. Link to post Share on other sites
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