New to forum - Question on Saiga 223

[genesis5521 9]

I have a number of rifles, pistols, revolvers, and shotguns, that I reload for, but I know absolutely nothing about Saiga's, so I've started to get an education about them. I have a chance to purchase a new in box Saiga 223, manufactured in Russia by Izhhmash, from my LGS for $399. I can't remember if it has a pistol grip or straight grip. It comes with one ten round mag, and that's it. They also have 1000 rounds of ammo for $269. I'm pretty sure it's steel and berdan primed, but didn't pay much attention to it or the gun until now. I have a shooting range on my property and do a ton of shooting.

 

Here are my questions:

 

Is this a good deal?

 

I'd like to reload for this gun but have heard that the cases get a good dent upon ejection, making them unsuitable for reloading (using brass cases of course). Is this true?

 

Do any of you reload for your Saiga 223?

 

I can get 3 to 5 inch groups at 100 yards on my open sighted lever guns. Can I expect the same kind of accuracy from a Saiga 223 with open sights? I don't change or put any doodads on any of my guns to increase the "cool factor." I like to keep things simple. But that's just me. To each his own.

 

I can get 20 and 30 rounds mag for this gun from my LGS for $20~$30. If I get these mags do I have to be concerned with 922r compliance? My LGS is a little hardware store and the owner knows absolutely nothing about, or even heard of 922r. But he's a nice and fair guy with some good stuff at really good prices.

 

Any info you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks guys, and happy shooting,

 

Don <><

[mancat 2,368]

That's about an average price right now, considering that some people can't even find them in stores.

 

Reloading for an AK or AR can be tricky. Both can beat up brass a whole lot. You can tune the ejection of the Saiga somewhat by using stiffer recoil spring, or adding a bit of rubber to the dust cover. What happens is that the cases are ejected backwards and bounce off of the dust cover opening edge, giving them a distinct dent. The bolt carrier also sometimes smacks the case, especially at the neck, and dents that in as well. The Saiga bolt also is designed to leave an indent on the case rim/primer seating area (Russian law, civilian rifles must mark cases). The primer pocket can be swaged and a primer seated without ill-effect.

 

I shoot brass now and then in my Saiga, which has a stiffer recoil spring - that's it as far as carrier tuning. The brass cases sometimes have a dent, sometimes don't. Most of them have a dented neck, but this could be easily resized.

 

Some people do reload for these rifles, but all of these things together make it sort of a tricky rifle to deal with when reloading spent brass. I'm not a reloader so that's all I can tell you about it.

 

3-5" groups are pretty average for a Saiga .223 so I doubt you'd be let down. The biggest issue is the iron sights. The stock front post is large and covers about 4MOA at 100yd, I would guess. There are many front sight posts available for the AK that will allow you to shoot with a bit more precision if you don't like the way the sights look.

 

I'm always questioning my understanding of 922r, but currently my understanding is that the Saiga is legal as-is with a 10-round removable magazine only, as a magazine of this capacity still allows the Saiga to be considered a sporting rifle, even if the magazine is removable. The factory magazine also counts as a foreign part. Once you replace it with a US-made magazine, you've now added US parts, increased the capacity over the "sporter" classification, and now you need to satisfy 922r parts count.

 

If you want to leave the rifle as-is without doing the trigger group relocation, it could be a challenge to meet the 922r parts count. You need six US-made parts in that case. Usually this is achieved through using US trigger group (3 parts), US furniture (2 parts), and a US pistol grip or muzzle device (1 part).

 

Here is a 922r parts count calculator that you can have some "fun" with: http://jobson.us/922r/

 

I'm not suggesting that you break the law when I say this, but from casual browsing of this forum and others, I would guess that most AK rifles in the USA are not anywhere near being 922r compliant. Many owners don't even know about it, so you have a leg up there.

Edited November 13, 2012 by mancat

[thebuns1 4,323]

Yeah Mancat, Ive talked to several people at gunshows that have no clue what 922r is. But your right. If he sticks with 10 rounders with the factory setup, he's good to go.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Captain Hero

[vulcan16 971]

That's about an average price right now, considering that some people can't even find them in stores.

 

 

I'm always questioning my understanding of 922r, but currently my understanding is that the Saiga is legal as-is with a 10-round removable magazine only, as a magazine of this capacity still allows the Saiga to be considered a sporting rifle, even if the magazine is removable. The factory magazine also counts as a foreign part. Once you replace it with a US-made magazine, you've now added US parts, increased the capacity over the "sporter" classification, and now you need to satisfy 922r parts count.

 

If you want to leave the rifle as-is without doing the trigger group relocation, it could be a challenge to meet the 922r parts count. You need six US-made parts in that case. Usually this is achieved through using US trigger group (3 parts), US furniture (2 parts), and a US pistol grip or muzzle device (1 part).

 

Here is a 922r parts count calculator that you can have some "fun" with: http://jobson.us/922r/

.

You can use US made 10 round magazines without triggering 922r.

 

It's very easy to comply to 922r in sporter configuration. US made hand guard (Tapco) + US made magazine removes 4 foreign parts & brings the rifle into 922r compliance. US made piston(Tapco) is another cheap part that can be swapped out . The magic number is ten or less countable foreign parts.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Jetmech

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

When I went to the Tulsa gun show I saw 6 FFL dealers selling guns in violation of 922r. A lot of people don't even know about it.

[TheDarkHorse 216]

922R is like a seatbelt or texting law....

 

They most likely wouldn't come after you because of it, but if you create another more "serious" infraction, they would tack it on. Its called "mounting charges".

[Big E 0]

I wish I payed that amount. Just jailed a gun store's last BNIB .223 here in Commiefornia and I paid $460 + tax.