xxlfitness@yahoo.com 14 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Lets only talk about the MD ARMS V-PLUG or DPH Arms plug Of those two, give me and idea of your experiences, good bad or indifferent. Thanks, mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lewie212 37 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 No tac 47 autoplug? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 They ALL work. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheDarkHorse 216 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 I chose the DPH over the MDA plug for two reasons....the DPH has 6 settings vs. the MDA's 5. Also, the interior "walls" of the DPH plug appeared to be more robust than those of the MDA. That's it. Otherwise I would have went with the MDA plug because it works very well too as documented here and other forums. You won't go wrong either way. Both companies make quality products. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xxlfitness@yahoo.com 14 Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 ok well no Auto plug because it is the one plug that does have some issues and controversy over how and when it works. Either you love or hate them, As to the MD and DPH, I have heard from some web sights that sell them, their feedback slightly favors the MD. The DPH may indeed be more robust, that is important for sure. Now when its said "they all work" yes I understand that, in fact some of the major smiths who build these guns tell you your wasting your time using anything but the stock plug, but in my case, I am searching for some answers and a very slight improvement is needed over the stock plug and using an aftermarket puck. So Im going to try one of these no doubt about it, Im just trying to get some general feedback about which one seems to work more often than not. Its simple math for me, the one with the most positive responses, Im trying LOL Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 No Gunfixer plug? It has magical gunsmithing powers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xxlfitness@yahoo.com 14 Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Evil dude, what does that even mean??? I assume this is a form of levity? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 No Gunfixer plug? It has magical gunsmithing powers. People got confused by the name. It was the original adjustable plug and works well. It is not intended to solve undergassing problems. The gunsmith who makes them uses the forum name gunfixer, hence the product name. Uninformed people assumed that it would fix their undergassed guns just as they do with all the other plugs. I don't think there is a real reason to single this one out for sarcam. He invented the product, give him some credit. This same misunderstanding is the only thing anyone has against autoplug either. (other than the lack of support for 3" shells) As for MD vs. DPH, some DPH users have complained that the detente notches hold too solidly to allow the plug to be turned without tools. I do not know whether DPH resolved this issue. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xxlfitness@yahoo.com 14 Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 so how does one find a link to this particular brand of plug? I think Evil was just having some fun, no biggie, mike 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SwissyJim 117 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 I find the stock plug does fine, with the CSS puck. Most everything runs fine on setting #1, with few exceptions, and I stay away from those exceptions! But I'm SPOILED by my Tromix S12... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) so how does one find a link to this particular brand of plug? I think Evil was just having some fun, no biggie, mike I was. The factory regulator has a more "wide ass open" setting than anything that I have used or seen. I modify them to adjust in finer increments like the aftermarket options do. People ask me all of the time what kind of "plug" am I running or if I have a "low brass" kit, as if a "plug" or "low brass" kit is what makes my weapons run as they do in my videos. Factory regulator, puck, and springs bitches! Factory.... Regulators regulate the gas that is coming through the ports and into the gas chamber.... that is all they do. They do not add gas or reduce friction, which a combination of the two is what I do to make mine run. This is an 8" SBS running Winchester Universal flawlessly in MD-20s at full spring tension of 3 turns.... with a factory regulator, factory puck, and factory springs. Factory.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Be5TZAsUKs I find the stock plug does fine, with the CSS puck. Most everything runs fine on setting #1, with few exceptions, and I stay away from those exceptions! But I'm SPOILED by my Tromix S12... Will it run Winchester Universal in MD-20 drums without the CSS puck? Just curious. Edited November 18, 2012 by evlblkwpnz 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xxlfitness@yahoo.com 14 Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Ok I am baffled. I love the video and that is for sure a bad arse weapon and dependable but..... Conventional wisdom is that if you shorten the barrel, your going to affect the gas. The shorter the barrel, the more your going to need to do to make it cycle. This is the very problem I am having with my own gun at the moment. Some believe you must open up the gas ports or add one, etc and others beleive that is crap and you need to add a lighter recoil spring to help it cycle, and some do both but I have not seen anyone who does nothing and has a gun cycle that cheap junk Winchester that reliably with a shortened barrel. I am lost for words. What is it that you DID do to the gun as we see it, to make it cycle with junk ammo and a shortened barrel. mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Ok I am baffled. I love the video and that is for sure a bad arse weapon and dependable but..... Conventional wisdom is that if you shorten the barrel, your going to affect the gas. The shorter the barrel, the more your going to need to do to make it cycle. This is the very problem I am having with my own gun at the moment. Some believe you must open up the gas ports or add one, etc and others beleive that is crap and you need to add a lighter recoil spring to help it cycle, and some do both but I have not seen anyone who does nothing and has a gun cycle that cheap junk Winchester that reliably with a shortened barrel. I am lost for words. What is it that you DID do to the gun as we see it, to make it cycle with junk ammo and a shortened barrel. mike It would take me hours to explain exactly what was done to it. In a nutshell, I did the exactly the same things that I do to my longer ones, but the gas system has been moved back 3.75", the ports are only .070'ish (factory sized), and there is some minor tricky stuff going on with the trigger (not full auto). This was the first shortened S12 that I built and it ran like this from the first mag. I may finally upload the video of that first test run. It flawlessly ran a full drum of Universal. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xxlfitness@yahoo.com 14 Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 wow thats amazing. Mine has only been shortened about 4 inches and a break welded on. Ive polished the heck out of everything internally, ramps, receiver rails, bolt, hammer, etc. Aftermarket puck, factory plug, 3 port gun proper sizes and angle, Installed Jacks new recoil spring guide rod system with reduced power spring and with all that, still not reliable with junk ammo of any kind on any setting. One thing I have noticed, to me the stored hammer creats a lot of resistance as the bolt moves over it. More than I think is necessary. Even though its highly polished, it seems excessive to me. If I artifically hold down he hammer just a little bit, the resistance is greatly reduced. Just looks like it comes down to the stored height of the hammer in the cocked position. Your thoughts? Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) A decent reprofile is more beneficial that an excellent polish. These "gas operated" weapons were designed to fire strong loads. The gas ports are usually sufficient for cycling strong loads. If you want to run weak loads in one of these "gas operated" weapons, you will likely need to do a combination of reprofiling and port addition or enlargement. People will try to argue and discredit me, but I don't sell files, sandpaper, or drill bits for a living. I just want others to experience the same joy that I do.... with the factory springs. ETA: The hammer profile and carrier profile can have a significant effect on how well the weapon cycles "low brass". Port work may still be necessary. Just noticed your sig line. I appreciate your service. I am sure you have made your share of tough decisions along the way. Edited November 18, 2012 by evlblkwpnz 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 A decent reprofile is more beneficial that an excellent polish. These "gas operated" weapons were designed to fire strong loads. The gas ports are usually sufficient for cycling strong loads. If you want to run weak loads in one of these "gas operated" weapons, you will likely need to do a combination of reprofiling and port addition or enlargement. People will try to argue and discredit me, but I don't sell files, sandpaper, or drill bits for a living. I just want others to experience the same joy that I do.... with the factory springs. ETA: The hammer profile and carrier profile can have a significant effect on how well the weapon cycles "low brass". Port work may still be necessary. Just noticed your sig line. I appreciate your service. I am sure you have made your share of tough decisions along the way. This ^^ FAR too much emphasis has been put on "polishing" of the bolt and carrier of the S-12. I can take ANY S-12, any length, with any amount of gas porting.... and do the same modifications to the bolt and carrier I do on every one I ever touch. I'm only talking about the "re-profiling" done on the bolt, the bolt carrier, and the hammer if an after market hammer is being used. I can then STOP right there...and leave the deep scratches and scars left by a grinder, or if more careful work is done by other means.... it matters not one bit. I can then reassemble the weapon with these simple mods without sanding or "polishing" them one bit further. After doing this I will guarantee the weapon will run better on low brass than it did before these mods. That is without even touching it further to give the parts the slick mirror like finish you can see your reflection in, which I leave on every set that I work on. Is it as smooth and flawless in operation as it would be had I finished and polished all the contact surfaces like I do? No. Will it still run better than it did before on low brass, with even the minimal amount of gas necessary to cycle the action with most ammo? The answer is yes. Does it make any difference at all what kind of puck or what kind of gas plug is used? No it does not. The different gas plugs on the market are only made to give a tighter control on actually "turning down" the gas on the weapon. So all that said... this is why I simply replied "They ALL work". Each one will turn, and will do it's simple job of selecting how much gas is delivered to the bolt carrier, but none of them will have any noticeable effect on "adding" more gas to the system. That can only be done by doing one of three things. 1. If there are obstructed ports, the obstruction can be removed from the ports themselves, or the gas block can be rotated or trimmed back to clear the obstruction. 2. If the ports are simply too small or not enough of them present, they can be enlarged slightly or added. Or... 3. A choke or effective muzzle brake can be added to the barrel to restrict the gas and cause more back pressure to cycle the bolt. I'm talking about with the factory gas piston (puck), not some after market part designed to work differently. Yes, there are different characteristics for some of the different pistons on the market, which will effect how efficiently the existing gas pressure is transferred to kinetic energy on the cycling of the bolt, but what kind of gas regulator (or plug) used has too little to do with this IMO to make any of them better than the factory regulator with it's simple two settings. At best, the original design of the first after market multi- adjustable plug, the Gunfixr plug, and the other similar designs which followed behind it... at best they are a little more efficient design by putting more of a straight backward pointing "boost" on the piston, because the gas is directed a little more straight on the center of the piston. Even this is negligible though, because the ports themselves are angled back closer to 45 degrees than 90. To simplify... It doesn't make as much difference what kind of after market gas system parts you use, or especially how shiny or perfectly polished you get the finish on a few key areas, AFTER properly re-profiling them, as the actual drastic change that is made in the geometry of the parts in question.... the bolt, the carrier, and the hammer. That key thing is far more responsible for making an under-gassed gun run better on lower powered ammo, than any amount of shiny polished surface you can do yourself if able, or pay one of us to do for you. It's basically that simple. Too much has been made of the word "polish" on this forum. This is coming from someone who does more re-profiling and polishing on these guns than about any other thing I do, so I have no reason to try and bullshit anyone. The emphasis I am trying to make in this argument, is the same thing evl said above, only spelled way out in long form. It's not the polish, it's the profile. The guns are not designed to run on crappy low powered American ammo...they just aren't. They are overbuilt tanks of a military shotgun, built to work great on high powered ammo. If you want it to run as well on low brass or low recoil loads, there are some fundamental changes that can be made to the geometry of the internals, which truly make all the difference in the world. Shiny makes no difference in brute powered performance. Shiny only makes an already better gun run smooth as silk. Any and all rough surfaces you can polish smooth in the moving parts, without screwing up and changing geometry in critical areas, will make a rough feeling gun cycle and oprate more smooth and reliable. Anyone who has had an old AK with a well used action, can attest to this fact. Compare the way the bolt feels while being cycled, to a NIB Saiga with it's gritty, painted, parked, and nasty feeling internals... and the difference is night and day. This means the bolt takes much less effort to get it to cycle. That's it. Period. Less friction = more smooth and efficient performance. It's true with any machine. For this same reason.... those cocky individuals you will see posting here, who have never felt an action like the one in my S-12, will boldly say "No Saiga or Vepr 12 needs any polishing of the internals...it's a waste".... well God Bless them, or "bless his heart"...as we fondly say in the south when we witness someone make a mistake they seriously can't help..... They just have no clue. It's not their fault The reason I went into that is because I have heard hundreds of people say "I polished everything inside that can be polished. Nobody can polish it that much better than me. It still doesn't work. Why the hell not? What is wrong with my gun or my chosen add on parts?" Usually nothing is wrong at all. Unless the gun has blocked or undersized ports, it will usually run much better after removing the majority of the friction that's robbing it's power. Well the majority of the serious power robbing friction gets removed with a good re-profile job. Without that though, you really have done nothing more than polish a turd. That's the story as I see it, and have experienced it for almost ten years now, and I'm sticking to it. Polish away, buy all the tricky dicky neato thingies you want to put on it. Over drill and over gas the gun, or trick it into submission with light springs and other modifications... it's all the same to me. Nothing will work as good at eliminating the root of the problem though, as attacking it at it's source. FACT. No disrespect intended what so ever to the OP, I too respect what you have done in your fields of duty. This is my field and I have much experience taking Saigas that won't run, and turning them into Cadillac sewing machines of reliability. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rs51085 136 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 I just want to third what evil and cobra said. here is some pics of cobras work from another post. this is what they are talking about when they say re profiling. Ok as requested, some before / after pics of modded / unmodded bolts, and a before / after of a Tapco hammer, which is just as important as, if not more than, the bolt mod for making the gun cycle better with all loads after conversion. Also some pics of a couple that had too much material removed and exposed the bolt head cavity inside. Some different ones....in different stages of modification (top two were taken too far). Notice the small hole in this one... and let me add that if you already have done the re-profiling and already have the barrel shortened with a break welded to it there are a few things that can still be done to help cycling. if you are just looking to add parts then either plug will do about the same and not help cycling much. An md booster puck will help cycling more than a factory puck. also a jte competition main spring will reduce the amount of drag that the hammer has on the carrier just like re-profiling the hammer does. that is just a few things that could help you out. i am not quiet the purest that evil and cobra are when it comes to keeping factory parts. once you weld that break on there you options get a little more limited but reliability is still achievable. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xxlfitness@yahoo.com 14 Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) I just want to thank everyone who has posted here, in particular the last 3 posters. This is a lot of info and good stuff to be sure. There is much to consider and assimilate here, so it may take me a while LOL. Thanks to you all and have a great Thanksgiving. God bless AND, God help America. Mike Edited November 18, 2012 by Dyna962007 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
xxlfitness@yahoo.com 14 Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 After re-reading this thread and in particular looking all these pictures over, I realized my Tapco Hammer had been polished by me but not re-profiled. I always thought there was excessive resistance as the bolt moved over the hammer but thought that was all natural. My hammer did not look anything like the modified, re-profiled and polished one in the pictures. So I went to work on it and tried to make it look as close as I could to the one illustrated. After I was done, I worked the action back and forth and there was a very noticeable difference in the feel of the action. It is way smoother. Keep in mind I have already polished a lot of the internals, rails and had the bolt assembly nicely profiled by a very well known Smith on this list, so I was in good shape on the bolt already. This simple and obvious change to the hammer profile seemed to make an enormous difference in the action smoothing out. I have not yet tried it to see if it corrects my reliability problems but I will be trying it soon and will keep you all posted, thanks, mike 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Glad to be of assistance. Until someone actually feels what a well profiled and polished bolt and trigger group feels like.... well Bless Their Heart"...lol. Difference truly is like night and day. I do want to say though, that these pictures are very old, and were only posted in public for the specific reason I wanted folks to stop thinking just anyone could follow online pictures or instructions in some "DIY" polishing thread, and be assured good results the first, or even 5th time trying it. It is very possible to really screw up some things if you get carried away and take off too much material. It's much easier to take off than it is to put back.... In some of the photos posted by Rogers, There are serious issues that should not be repeated. That was the whole intent of showing just what can happen if someone got "grind happy". None of the parts in those photos went out to customers. One of the bolts that shows the break through to the inside cavity of the bolt, was a very early job I did for someone, before I discovered just how far is "too far". That one I sacrificed the bolt out of my own S-12 and sent the customer back a perfectly done set. In fact I am still running that breached bolt part in my personal gun with no ill effects. I would never send something like that out to a customer though, and anyone who says different is a damn liar. The other one with the hole in it, was done by a friend on his own personal S-12, while getting "grind happy" on his own...without my supervision. Later on I bought that gun for use as a shop gun for test fitting parts in, and still own it, and the damaged bolt. Since then I have never removed that much material on a customer's bolt, and have my own system of measuring to be certain that never happens again with any that come into my shop, whether friends or customers. Even though both those bolts still get used a lot, and have suffered no further wear or caused ANY problems, (in fact they are the smoothest actions I have ever felt because so much was removed...) I do not advocate ANYONE using any photos of mine or anyone else's for that matter, as a guide to doing re-profiling or shaping work on their on guns. I was pissed at the time, about the DIY polishing thread stickied on the main page, and was attempting to warn people not to mess up their own bolts like these got messed up. Some tards only thought I was hating on the thread for personal gain. Well...tards will be tards.... Bless Their Hearts.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SwissyJim 117 Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Will it run Winchester Universal in MD-20 drums without the CSS puck? Just curious. Yes, but on setting #2. I should take advantage of Pauly's services to see if that would change... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) Will it run Winchester Universal in MD-20 drums without the CSS puck? Just curious. Yes, but on setting #2. I should take advantage of Pauly's services to see if that would change... Tromix doesn't do the reprofile and polish? FYI, it should not run Win Universal on setting one of a factory regulator. Sounds like it is fine though. ETA: spelling Edited November 20, 2012 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SwissyJim 117 Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Will it run Winchester Universal in MD-20 drums without the CSS puck? Just curious. Yes, but on setting #2. I should take advantage of Pauly's services to see if that would change... Tromix doesn't do the reprofile and polish? FYI, it should not run Win Universal on setting on of a factory regulator. Sounds like it is fine though. Reprofiled yes, polished no. Sure, I could do it myself but it would not look as badass as Pauly's! And I like to support the small businesses. http://vimeo.com/48424701yup... she runs AWESOME Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Will it run Winchester Universal in MD-20 drums without the CSS puck? Just curious. Yes, but on setting #2. I should take advantage of Pauly's services to see if that would change... Tromix doesn't do the reprofile and polish? FYI, it should not run Win Universal on setting on of a factory regulator. Sounds like it is fine though. Reprofiled yes, polished no. Sure, I could do it myself but it would not look as badass as Pauly's! And I like to support the small businesses. http://vimeo.com/48424701yup... she runs AWESOME Recent wait times for Paulys work has been reported 3-4 months from some members. Hope you don't need or want to shoot your S12 while you wait for some shiny parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SwissyJim 117 Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Naw, I'm not worried. In all honesty, dunno if I will send it in at all. She runs great, and I really don't see the need at this point. Or maybe I'll do it myself once I get my S308 and possibly a 7.62. but then again, I have bribed guys for better list placement with my home caught/smoked Alaskan Salmon... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SICARIO 26 Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 The main issue I see is that the "modified" tapco triggers that are supposed to fit the saigas have a taller profile than the stock saiga triggers. If they were modified correctly from the start, a lot of these issues wouldn't exist. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Molotov Cocktail 9 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I like the numerals on the DPH vs the MD Arms. A little easier to see and manipulate. The Autoplug is good too if you wanna go that route. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Naw, I'm not worried. In all honesty, dunno if I will send it in at all. She runs great, and I really don't see the need at this point. Or maybe I'll do it myself once I get my S308 and possibly a 7.62. but then again, I have bribed guys for better list placement with my home caught/smoked Alaskan Salmon... Wow that's pretty honest. Hope ya don't ever try that crap with me...lol. Quickest way to get your parts "misplaced" for a bit while others somehow manage to cut in line in front of ya...lol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 As much as I love wild smoked Alaskan kings, that does seem rather unfair to the people who paid before him. Now if I were a builder, I can imagine this would be tempting to take higher pay or other rewards, but I think that long term it would cost you customer trust. (not to mention personal integrity) However, maybe the solution is to be up front about it. If I were sitting in the shoes of Tony Rumore, etc, I could see saying "the work gets done in the order received and paid for, Except, if some guy pays double the rate he may bump you. I will take no more than 3 such cuts in line per year. Also if I am waiting on parts or tooling, I will work on the next item in que that I have the parts & equipment for." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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