Not cycling high brass, help a newbie out?

[S12KS-K 40]

You guys crack me up.. what is this bs about thinking a little bit of oil is going to inhibit the function of the gas system? LOL!

 

.. No.. that's NOT the problem...

[lbsrdi 1,078]

You guys crack me up.. what is this bs about thinking a little bit of oil is going to inhibit the function of the gas system? LOL!

 

.. No.. that's NOT the problem...

It cracks me up that you think that it helps.

[S12KS-K 40]

You guys crack me up.. what is this bs about thinking a little bit of oil is going to inhibit the function of the gas system? LOL!

 

.. No.. that's NOT the problem...

It cracks me up that you think that it helps.

 

Please quote where I said it did??... I'll be waiting..

[philosojester 1]

You guys crack me up.. what is this bs about thinking a little bit of oil is going to inhibit the function of the gas system? LOL!

 

.. No.. that's NOT the problem...

It cracks me up that you think that it helps.

 

Gentlemen, no need to start a flame war. I think we can all agree that lube in the gas tube (can't believe that I just wrote that) isn't beneficial to the system as it causes an accelerated accumulation of filth, but is likewise unlikely to cause problems in a system in fewer that 10 shots. It simply wouldn't be able to accumulate filth quick enough to affect operation that soon.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

You guys crack me up.. what is this bs about thinking a little bit of oil is going to inhibit the function of the gas system? LOL!

 

.. No.. that's NOT the problem...

It cracks me up that you think that it helps.

 

Please quote where I said it did??... I'll be waiting..

It either helps, hurts, or does neither. It seems to be your position that is does neither(which does not makes sense to me). To me it has to either help or hurt, my position is that is better to run the GB dry. That is only my opinion.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

First of all, clean it. Pour some hoppes into the gas port and go to town with a toothbrush. If that doesn't work:

 

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxxnENqRsQI

 

Also get some of this:

 

Put it on a rag, Polish the bolt to a mirror shine.

your going to need more than that to get a mirror shine.. thats fine finish agent, but it's not a solve all.

ask me how i know.

 

 

And oiling the gas system just allows a medium for fouling to accumulate in. I only clean my gas system ever 800-1000 rounds. The few times I have used any lubricants on it, i'd have to clean crap out ever 100-300 rounds. I've tried nickle base antisieze, mobile one, rem oil, CLP, even high temp silicone. Dry is the way.

[S12KS-K 40]

your going to need more than that to get a mirror shine.. thats fine finish agent, but it's not a solve all.

ask me how i know.

 

 

 

That's a bolt carrier.... not a bolt.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

your going to need more than that to get a mirror shine.. thats fine finish agent, but it's not a solve all.

ask me how i know.

 

 

 

That's a bolt carrier.... not a bolt.

Same process, same material, same result. If you dont want to listen and improve your parts, not my loss.

[philosojester 1]

Sounds like your ports may be undersized. Have you done the bolt drop test? And also, a little bit of lube on the puck won't kill your gun. I always rub a bit of mobil-1 on all the moving parts of my guns.

 

Oh yeah, before I forget, Big John!, your avatar scores 110 out of 100. AWESOME

 

Bolt drop test. I tried looking it up but found nothing relevant. Are you asking me if I have dropped my bolt to see if it is still functional after falling on a hard surface? Forgive my confusion.

Nevermind, I found what you were taking about. From how it has felt hand cycling the bolt I don't think it would pass, but I'll try it out ASAP.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I puts the lotion on the skin.... not in the gas block

[S12KS-K 40]

Same process, same material, same result. If you dont want to listen and improve your parts, not my loss.

 

.. Polishing the bolt carrier does nothing to reliability. Polishing the BOLT does. In fact, it's stupid to polish a carrier if the carrier isn't STAINLESS STEEL. Good job stripping the corrosion protection from your bolt

 

Now, tell me why my BOLT looks like a mirror after giving it a polish with flitz? At this point I'm going to dismiss you as a bs'r.

 

To anyone claiming that a little bit of fouling effects the system, it's because your system is under gassed. Get some competence and drill out your gas ports or learn to clean your guns.

Edited November 24, 2012 by S12KS-K

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Same process, same material, same result. If you dont want to listen and improve your parts, not my loss.

 

.. Polishing the bolt carrier does nothing to reliability. Polishing the BOLT does. In fact, it's stupid to polish a carrier if the carrier isn't STAINLESS STEEL. Good job stripping the corrosion protection from your bolt

 

Now, tell me why my BOLT looks like a mirror after giving it a polish with flitz? At this point I'm going to dismiss you as a bs'r.

 

To anyone claiming that a little bit of fouling effects the system, it's because your system is under gassed. Get some competence and drill out your gas ports or learn to clean your guns.

You're inccorect. The bolt carrier, is the primary point of friction on the action, where the rails slide, and most importantly where the carrier contacts the hammer face, this is why both the hammer and the carrier must be polished. A mirrior shine on the bolt carrier and just slick down the hamer (you just want to remove the rough texture of the hammer face, but not so much that lubrication doesn't adhere to the hammer.)

The only part of the bolt that aides in reliabitly are the locking lugs, and extractor face. IF your going to polish on the lugs you need to be careful not to remove any materail and altering their tolerances. Otherwise polishing/reprofiling of the bolt merely aids in loading on a closed bolt.

It's okay to polish the bolt carrier on the S12, because the alloy is a high chrome content, enough so that it exhibits charateristic of stainless, thoug the trade name for the alloy is "1/4 chrome" Infact vendors here on the forum offer profession bolt and carrier polishing service, that include reporfling of the hammer as well. You should go through and read the stickies and contact some vendors you seem to have given this some thought but not really followed through any of it. I'm guessing you haven't done too many of these and just got lucky on the first one and think you know whats, what.

 

Heres some more infor on polishing the bolt properly from a reputable vendor who's done 1,000s. IT's also a pinned link here on the form, you should read it throughly so that maybe you learn something:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/50571-how-do-i-polish-the-bolt/

 

I've researched the compitision of the bolt and carrier with a profession postitive material idetification process PMID for short using XRF analizer. Honestly i suspect your trolling, but thats fine too, because sombody will come along and read these notes and learn something.

I don't know if anybody said "a little bit of fouling" I said that adding lube to the gas system creates a medium for fouling to accumlate.

Now go read, learn and be quite till you have something of materal value to add to the conversation. Bye!

Edited November 24, 2012 by poolingmyignorance

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I'm not into the exterior bling, but all of the surfaces that interact (read: sources of resistance) always get addressed in my weapons and they seem to run ok. Bolt, carrier, FCG, and a few other spots.

[philosojester 1]

Update

 

I did the bolt test mentioned earlier and to my surprise it dropped right out, anyone have anything to say against the validity of this test? Also did some probing with a Christmas ornament hook and found a fourth port almost completely covered by the gas block so instead of having half a port blocked on a three port saiga, I have one and a half ports blocked on a four port saiga. Checked the crimp on those 000 buck rounds that FTEd and they look normal according to my gun nut uncle, but to me they looked longer than the Winchester AAs I had fired by a couple of centimeters. Could the extra length due to the 000 really cause 10 straight FTEs? I mean weren't these made to be able to handle 3" rounds?

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

The length of different shotgun shells vary quite a bit before firing and after the crimp opens. I have seen 2 3/4" shells vary wildly. I do know that Remington Express 3" 00 Buck and Winchester XX 3" 00 Buck will run fine in all of my S12s. You might try some of that and see what happens.

 

Is your gas block canted? There is a possibility that could be a contributor to the covered up port issue. If not, you may end up needing to remove the gas block and increase the bevel of the port orifice, so the ports can function. I wish I could get a look at it. Maybe there is someone near you that knows a little and wouldn't taking a look at it over a beer or two. Many here are happy to help if they can.

[philosojester 1]

The length of different shotgun shells vary quite a bit before firing and after the crimp opens. I have seen 2 3/4" shells vary wildly. I do know that Remington Express 3" 00 Buck and Winchester XX 3" 00 Buck will run fine in all of my S12s. You might try some of that and see what happens.

 

Is your gas block canted? There is a possibility that could be a contributor to the covered up port issue. If not, you may end up needing to remove the gas block and increase the bevel of the port orifice, so the ports can function. I wish I could get a look at it. Maybe there is someone near you that knows a little and wouldn't taking a look at it over a beer or two. Many here are happy to help if they can.

 

I am in Jackson, Michigan. If anyone lives nearby and wouldn't mind taking a look at it, PM me. Beers will be on me.

 

I plan on opening up the aforementioned orifice (can't believe I just wrote that), there is a stickied thread about modding the gas block and I plan to follow those instructions if my next shooting test doesn't work out well.

 

Btw, I saw your 8" on YouTube...the shotgun, that is. It was magnificent.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

The length of different shotgun shells vary quite a bit before firing and after the crimp opens. I have seen 2 3/4" shells vary wildly. I do know that Remington Express 3" 00 Buck and Winchester XX 3" 00 Buck will run fine in all of my S12s. You might try some of that and see what happens.

 

Is your gas block canted? There is a possibility that could be a contributor to the covered up port issue. If not, you may end up needing to remove the gas block and increase the bevel of the port orifice, so the ports can function. I wish I could get a look at it. Maybe there is someone near you that knows a little and wouldn't taking a look at it over a beer or two. Many here are happy to help if they can.

 

I am in Jackson, Michigan. If anyone lives nearby and wouldn't mind taking a look at it, PM me. Beers will be on me.

 

I plan on opening up the aforementioned orifice (can't believe I just wrote that), there is a stickied thread about modding the gas block and I plan to follow those instructions if my next shooting test doesn't work out well.

 

Btw, I saw your 8" on YouTube...the shotgun, that is. It was magnificent.

The wife calls it my "mistress" because when I look at it my eyes brighten up. She loves it too.... I suppose we have a love triangle going on

 

 

ETA: Try to keep the removal of material to a minimum. When the gas block is off, you should see the "footprint" of that orifice on the barrel. Judging on where the ports are obstructed, bevel as needed. Try your best to not do so much removal on the bottom that it disturbs the interior of the gas block, especially that little bit of area inside the gas block beyond the groove behind the regulator threads. It will increase the size of debris that is allowed to enter the groove and threads, making the gas regulator more difficult to remove after fouling has occurred. Go slow and check often.

Edited November 25, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

You also have the option of enlarging the exposed ports, while you have the gas block off then just add an after market plug with more adjustablity.

[philosojester 1]

The length of different shotgun shells vary quite a bit before firing and after the crimp opens. I have seen 2 3/4" shells vary wildly. I do know that Remington Express 3" 00 Buck and Winchester XX 3" 00 Buck will run fine in all of my S12s. You might try some of that and see what happens.

 

Is your gas block canted? There is a possibility that could be a contributor to the covered up port issue. If not, you may end up needing to remove the gas block and increase the bevel of the port orifice, so the ports can function. I wish I could get a look at it. Maybe there is someone near you that knows a little and wouldn't taking a look at it over a beer or two. Many here are happy to help if they can.

 

I am in Jackson, Michigan. If anyone lives nearby and wouldn't mind taking a look at it, PM me. Beers will be on me.

 

I plan on opening up the aforementioned orifice (can't believe I just wrote that), there is a stickied thread about modding the gas block and I plan to follow those instructions if my next shooting test doesn't work out well.

 

Btw, I saw your 8" on YouTube...the shotgun, that is. It was magnificent.

The wife calls it my "mistress" because when I look at it my eyes brighten up. She loves it too.... I suppose we have a love triangle going on

 

 

ETA: Try to keep the removal of material to a minimum. When the gas block is off, you should see the "footprint" of that orifice on the barrel. Judging on where the ports are obstructed, bevel as needed. Try your best to not do so much removal on the bottom that it disturbs the interior of the gas block, especially that little bit of area inside the gas block beyond the groove behind the regulator threads. It will increase the size of debris that is allowed to enter the groove and threads, making the gas regulator more difficult to remove after fouling has occurred. Go slow and check often.

 

Just to make sure I understand, when enlarging the orifice, I should not file past the groove that lies between said orifice and the threads for the plug? Consider that my maximum limit?

[gunfun 3,931]

You don't want to get any where near the threads for the plug. It would be way out of usual to need to remove more than 1mm in any direction. Many people just choose to use a drill bit 1 1/6" bigger than the hole that's in the block from the bottom to enlarge. (which would expand the "orofice" 1 /32th in each direction) If more was needed, I would be looking at un-canting the block by welding and re-drilling the pin grooves.

[cobyb 1]

ugh... welding and redrilling the pin grooves does not sound like a good time... with that being said, my 4 port saiga had a canted gas block and did not cylce the cheap stuff. 2 holes were partially blocked. i removed the gas block and dremeled with a 5/32 sanding stone to open the gas block a little bit to allow all 4 holes to breath. see this thread for pictures of what im talking about... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/81743-make-sense/

Edited November 27, 2012 by cobyb

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

The length of different shotgun shells vary quite a bit before firing and after the crimp opens. I have seen 2 3/4" shells vary wildly. I do know that Remington Express 3" 00 Buck and Winchester XX 3" 00 Buck will run fine in all of my S12s. You might try some of that and see what happens.

 

Is your gas block canted? There is a possibility that could be a contributor to the covered up port issue. If not, you may end up needing to remove the gas block and increase the bevel of the port orifice, so the ports can function. I wish I could get a look at it. Maybe there is someone near you that knows a little and wouldn't taking a look at it over a beer or two. Many here are happy to help if they can.

 

I am in Jackson, Michigan. If anyone lives nearby and wouldn't mind taking a look at it, PM me. Beers will be on me.

 

I plan on opening up the aforementioned orifice (can't believe I just wrote that), there is a stickied thread about modding the gas block and I plan to follow those instructions if my next shooting test doesn't work out well.

 

Btw, I saw your 8" on YouTube...the shotgun, that is. It was magnificent.

The wife calls it my "mistress" because when I look at it my eyes brighten up. She loves it too.... I suppose we have a love triangle going on

 

 

ETA: Try to keep the removal of material to a minimum. When the gas block is off, you should see the "footprint" of that orifice on the barrel. Judging on where the ports are obstructed, bevel as needed. Try your best to not do so much removal on the bottom that it disturbs the interior of the gas block, especially that little bit of area inside the gas block beyond the groove behind the regulator threads. It will increase the size of debris that is allowed to enter the groove and threads, making the gas regulator more difficult to remove after fouling has occurred. Go slow and check often.

 

Just to make sure I understand, when enlarging the orifice, I should not file past the groove that lies between said orifice and the threads for the plug? Consider that my maximum limit?

Precisely. It is easy to get into that area. I have noticed that sometimes the orifice is drilled so far forward that very little an be done on the forward edge.

[philosojester 1]

Okay so I took my saiga 12, which I have now named Korsakoff, out to the range earlier this week and ran through it, #8 shot , high velocity #6, #4 buck, #2 buck, and 00 buck.

 

#8 Failures 5/5

#6 Failures 0/5 (high velocity shot)

#4 Failures 5/5

#2 Failures 2/5

00 Failures 2/5

 

I took the gas block off today and the shadow on the barrel that indicates where the gas block orifice is shows that my ports aren't being blocked by the gas block, at least not very much if at all.

 

I remember one of my possible problems was the gas plug cutting off too much gas on setting 1, which would cause the gun to operate normally on setting 2 but fail on setting one. Since the high velocity #6 shot ran so smoothly, I thought maybe I should check out what the gas plug looks like through the orifice which lets the gas in. Here it is from the rear of the gas block on setting 1.

 

Here it is from the bottom, looking up from the where the barrel would be

 

I don't know if it is normal that that much of the orifice is blocked on setting one, anyone know? Setting 2 is completely open, nothing blocking it whatsoever.

 

I got my tac 47 autoplug and decided to look at that installed and noticed that when I put it in all the way and then backed it out to where the detent would engage the plug part of the orifice was covered

 

But when I backed the plug out by one whole revolution, the plug fit flush with the orifice. See next post for picture.

[philosojester 1]

 

This leads me to believe that the "D" mod for the gas block might be unnecessary and that I might be able to get it to work by simply installing the autoplug and leaving it 1 revolution out. Does this seem feasible? This would mean that the problem is not with the gas block orifice, but with the threads on the front of the gas block where the regulator screws in. It is known that the thread starts for this area are random, could mine be far enough off to cause a problem in this fashion?

 

I don't really want to file my orifice because it is so close to the threads already.

Edited November 30, 2012 by philosojester

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

if your ports aren't obstructed by the block, then no need for the "D" mod. It's time to start looking at resizing existing ports.

I can tell you this, from the front edge of my gas block to the center of the "PORT" in the block is 0.555" Well past the last thread. The slot in your auto plug, should be lined up with the port. backing it out one thread, isn't going to solve anything. It will at most, expand chamber volume and reduce cycling pressure. I would enlarge my ports, and reprofile the hammer, or order one from TAC47.

[philosojester 1]

In order for the slot in the auto plug to be lined up with the "port" in the gas block, I need to back it out one thread. Installed correctly, the plug is cutting off part of the "port" in the gas block and therefore partially obstructing the ports. But backed out 1 thread it sits flush with the port.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

1 full turn would still locate it at the same exact spot, just one thread's pitch less forward.There is a dentent on the gun and a notch in the auto plug for it to rest, you should install it so that the autoplug is as far in as it can be while still landing on the dentent.

[philosojester 1]

Yes, I know that it is at the same exact spot and one thread's pitch less forward.

When the autoplug is as far in as it can be while still landing on the detent it is properly aligned (the slot lines up), BUT it is exactly one thread's pitch too far forward and is partially obstructing the port. When I back the plug out one revolution it sits flush with the port.

 

Look at the picture in post #53

You are looking at the bottom of the gas block, so that the outermost orifice is the sling mounting hole. The next orifice in is the gas block orifice where the ports of the barrel would be. You can see an edge coming down from the top, that is the edge of the slot on the Tac 47 autoplug. See how it is partially obstructing the orifice? This is with the plug all the way in, and then backed out to the first detent, as it should be installed.

 

Now look at the picture in post #54

You are looking at the same exact spot. Do you see how there are the same two holes, but no edge coming down from the top? Nothing obstructing the orifice. This is backed out one more revolution than the instructions tell you to do.

 

I get that this will increase the volume of the chamber slightly, but it will also allow the correct amount of gas to come in in the first place.

 

Is it dangerous to leave the plug turned out by one revolution if that is what it takes to make sure the ports are unobstructed?

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

No. Backing the auto plug out one full turn will not be dangerous at all because, your gas block has more threads than the autoplug. So you will still have a full set of engaged threads fastening the auto plug inside the gasblock.

Edited December 1, 2012 by poolingmyignorance

[philosojester 1]

Beautiful. Thanks