Do I REALLY need to work on the gas ports?

[coyotewillie 0]

As I posted in another thread I tried my new S12 yesterday for the first time. Had to run everything on position 2. Still had some FTE with some low brass Federals(3dram/1 1/2oz shot/7 1/2). I know that's not what the gun was intended to shoot, but it would be nice to pop some blue rocks at times. Thinking I might have some blocked gas ports, I started to tear it down to check. On my first inspection, I thought I had 3 holes with 1 partially blocked. You can only see 2 holes easily in the gas block opening. And last nite I could feel a third hole but couldn't get a bent paper clip in it. However, this morning after rebending the clip, I can get it into the third hole AND found the fourth! So, I have 4 gas ports and even though I can't see two in the opening, they're open enough to get a paper clip to fit through. Is this be enough? Is there really any reason to mess with this under the circumstances? I know one port is partially covered since there's not as much wiggle room for the clip. Not perfect, but I've still got most of the 4th port.

 

I do know I was very surprised by how rough the action feels compared to my 2 rifles. When you shuck this one, feels like rubbing two bricks together. I've only put 15 rounds through it so I know it's still pretty stiff. Under the circumstances should I just keep shooting to wear everything in? Seems like this would be a good candidate for a polish job from Pauly. Since I've got it disassembled enough to take the gas block off, should I go ahead, take it off, and open up the gas block opening? Thanks. Greg

[D.C.MORRISON 494]

I would advise a polish job first. then a good deal of shooting. I very much doubt that it needs port work. my s12 has three ports. did my own polishing after a lot of research here.

what you are experiencing seems normal to me.

welcome aboard.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Is this be enough?

What are your reliability expectations?

 

What is the crappiest ammo that you want it to run? (Winchester Universal, Federal Multi-Purpose, Remington Sport, etc)

 

Do you want to use drums or stick mags?

[Nephilim7 107]

Each gun is different. Mine ran great without any port work. Read A LOT on this forum to diagnose yours. Odds are your gun works exactly as designed (running high power buckshot on gas setting one). Many consider port work to be a last resort. Many times, it's like killing a fly with a hammer. It works but is overkill and can lead to other problems. Sometimes the fly just needs to be slightly reprofiled and polished until it's dead...

[coyotewillie 0]

Obviously no one buys any thing not expecting it to be reliable.....unless you've read up on the Saiga shotguns, LOL. Seriously, I'd like it to be 100% reliable on everything, but I know/knew that's not real probable without some work. I really have no idea what kind of ammo I will normally run through it. I've buckshot for predator calling and I've got the Federal 7 1/2's here for blue rock. That's the only reason I used the Federal yesterday. So I can't say specifically what I'll use. Of course I've got the 5 rd mag that came with it, and I'll probably get a couple 10's and 12's. And of course, you can't have a Saiga 12 without a 20 rd drum!!

 

While some may consider port work as a last resort, I didn't feel I had much choice if some were blocked. Since this seems to be a manufacturing/quality defect, I thought that should be taken care of first. Otherwise you're treating the symptoms before the disease. Now that I've found 4 ports, only 1 maybe minimally blocked, it doesn't look like there's anything here, this section anyway, to be worried about. Thanks. Greg

[philosojester 1]

Something that was recommended to me before considering a polish job is the drop bolt test. I thought I might need a polish, but this demonstrated that I did not. Could save you a hundred bucks.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk9xxlCUyDU

 

When you say work on the gas ports, I hope you mean the D mod, this should be considered before considering opening up the actual ports in the barrel.

http://forum.saiga-1...cked-gas-ports/

 

Keep in mind that I am a newbie too, but I just got a lot of my questions answered in thread I put up a week or two ago.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/82039-not-cycling-high-brass-help-a-newbie-out/

 

Hope that helps. Hang in there, buddy.

[Vance665 225]

My s12 started about the same as yours. All mine needed was a MD arms gas plug and booster puck. I'm using the factory spring, hammer and disconnect with zero polishing or port work (none of my four ports were blocked, don't know what size). It's been running good on Winchester bulk through MD drums ever since (even with my stock folded shooting from the hip), as long as the gas setting is all the way open. I can't really say it has zero polishing because I have shot several hundred rounds of high brass through it, mostly slugs.

[cobyb 1]

i would make sure that all 4 ports are completley unobstructed before spending any money. go shoot a few more rounds before removing the gas block. that will get enough crud in there to make it easier to see exactly were your gas block lies over the ports, once removed.. mine is a 4 port gun that had 1.5 holes blocked. i removed the material in the gas block that was covering the ports and now the saiga purrs like a kitten..

[coyotewillie 0]

Yea, I need to clarify that....I DO mean the "D" modification to the gas block opening. Either that or just drill out the opening slightly larger. I wasn't clear on that. I did do the bolt drop test, and mine drops freely as in the video. It shucked so much harder than I'm used to, I thought it could stand polishing. Now, maybe not.

 

I can only see 2 of the 4 gas holes. I can find the other two holes with a bent paper clip. I can move the clip around in one and it feels like there's about as much open space as the two I can see. On the fourth hole, I can get the clip in the hole, but it doesn't seem to wiggle around as much as the others. So, it feels like that one may be slightly covered. I thought maybe drilling out the gas block hole just a bit, or the "D" mod, might fully uncover all the ports. But, with 4 holes, with only one "slightly" covered, maybe there isn't a need to work on the gas block. Sounds like mine is pretty normal then?

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Interesting test.

 

I use the re-profiling and polishing mostly as a means of refining the feel of the action and reducing perceived recoil. When reliability comes into play is when using MD-20s with bulk pack birdshot. A bolt re-profile can be more beneficial then.

[S12KS-K 40]

There's no replacement for displacement (in this case moving air). Drill the ports.

[bitters 6]

There's no replacement for displacement (in this case moving air). Drill the ports.

 

Well put.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

That test is really rudimentry... it only adresses the hammer interference. There is drag from the locking lugs, the disconnector, the rails, and trigger hook. And it's NOT the bolt, but the BOLT CARRIER that drags the hammer face first. Also if your rapid firing it's possible that the hammer isn't being restrained by the disconnector at all, and that will cause additional drag between the hammer and BOLT CARRIER. An improved hammer profile can adress greater reliabilty across all types of ammo, and as well as what EVL said, a smoother action.

Polishing, reprofiling can bring things close to working to working, but won't make something thats severly undergas worked ever period.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

That test is really rudimentry... it only adresses the hammer interference. There is drag from the locking lugs, the disconnector, the rails, and trigger hook. And it's NOT the bolt, but the BOLT CARRIER that drags the hammer face first. Also if your rapid firing it's possible that the hammer isn't being restrained by the disconnector at all, and that will cause additional drag between the hammer and BOLT CARRIER. An improved hammer profile can adress greater reliabilty across all types of ammo, and as well as what EVL said, a smoother action.

Polishing, reprofiling can bring things close to working to working, but won't make something thats severly undergas worked ever period.

I really didn't feel like getting into all of that (way tired). I thank you and I agree.

[gunfun 3,931]

yeah, and to me one of the main purposes i of a bolt profile is to address some of the lumps on the bolt that push into the shell as it turns and slides. I have a bunch of dents in Remington brass that speak to this. Not to mention making mag insertion easier.

 

That drop test thing might be an OK way of finding snags, but it isn't really all that different from taking the spring out and sliding the bolt carrier by hand.

[vulcan16 971]

It will be easier and quicker to drill the gas ports then it would be for you to ship the gun for warranty work.

.076 four ports

.093 three ports

Open up the gas block with a 11/32 drill bit instead of doing the "D" block mod.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

The "D mod" sucks. Don't do it. Increase the bevel underneath the gas block opening to expose any blocked ports. Don't butcher the GB and cut into the ring at the base of the threads.... dumb.

 

When I re-profile and polish a BCG and FCG, it vastly improves the weapon, whether it was already cycling good or not. Polishing your rails, ejector, feed ramp area, extractor notch, barrel hood, etc etc will make the gun run MUCH better, so I always do ALL these mods BEFORE fucking around with the ports.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Plus if you do those first, and it works you didn't mess up your paint.

[S12KS-K 40]

Plus if you do those first, and it works you didn't mess up your paint.

 

It's not going to mess up the paint, lol.

 

Get a 3/4" copper pipe, a hammer and the punch that comes in the s12 (or any ak) cleaning kit.

 

That's how you get the block off without messing the paint up without a hydraulic press.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

I've had some come off with a hammer and others I've had no choice but to press off.

I've even seen the rear sight soldered in. These things vary quiet a bit gun to gun.

[DLT 1,646]

That test is really rudimentry... it only adresses the hammer interference. There is drag from the locking lugs, the disconnector, the rails, and trigger hook. And it's NOT the bolt, but the BOLT CARRIER that drags the hammer face first. Also if your rapid firing it's possible that the hammer isn't being restrained by the disconnector at all, and that will cause additional drag between the hammer and BOLT CARRIER. An improved hammer profile can adress greater reliabilty across all types of ammo, and as well as what EVL said, a smoother action.

Polishing, reprofiling can bring things close to working to working, but won't make something thats severly undergas worked ever period.

 

Well, actually it addresses a bit more than hammer interference. I've used that same test to identify other issues. I had one converted S12 that wouldn't cycle. Performed that test and immediately noticed that the bolt would stop dead at a certain point. Turned out the bottom of the bolt carrier was getting stuck between the rail and the top of the axis pin retainer. Had to remove material from the retaining plate and bingo, suddenly the S12 would cycle. As far as the disconnector not engaging during rapid fire, well that's highly unlikely in my opinion. If that is happening, then there is something seriously, and potentially dangerous wrong with the gun. Finally, regarding the locking lugs, well that's a part of the gun I won't touch ever. I've read too many examples of guns blowing up in the face of their operator because of too much slack in the locking lugs. You want a good lock up. If your gun can't generate enough momentum to unlock the lugs, then you absolutely have an undergassed gun. Just my opinion, but I know that there of plenty of guys here with much more smithing experience than me that might not agree.

Edited December 3, 2012 by DLT

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

That test is really rudimentry... it only adresses the hammer interference. There is drag from the locking lugs, the disconnector, the rails, and trigger hook. And it's NOT the bolt, but the BOLT CARRIER that drags the hammer face first. Also if your rapid firing it's possible that the hammer isn't being restrained by the disconnector at all, and that will cause additional drag between the hammer and BOLT CARRIER. An improved hammer profile can adress greater reliabilty across all types of ammo, and as well as what EVL said, a smoother action.

Polishing, reprofiling can bring things close to working to working, but won't make something thats severly undergas worked ever period.

 

Well, actually it addresses a bit more than hammer interference. I've used that same test to identify other issues. I had one converted S12 that wouldn't cycle. Performed that test and immediately noticed that the bolt would stop dead at a certain point. Turned out the bottom of the bolt carrier was getting stuck between the rail and the top of the axis pin retainer. Had to remove material from the retaining plate and bingo, suddenly the S12 would cycle. As far as the disconnector not engaging during rapid fire, well that's highly unlikely in my opinion. If that is happening, then there is something seriously, and potentially dangerous wrong with the gun. Finally, regarding the locking lugs, well that's a part of the gun I won't touch ever. I've read too many examples of guns blowing up in the face of their operator because of too much slack in the locking lugs. You want a good lock up. If your gun can't generate enough momentum to unlock the lugs, then you absolutely have an undergassed gun. Just my opinion, but I know that there of plenty of guys here with much more smithing experience than me that might not agree.

you misunderstand what i meant.. You had an aftermarket assembly problem which still needed to be adressed, but there are other things that this test still leaves unadressed. As simple as it is, no point in not trying it...just don't expect if it passes this that "polishing is completely unessary" because there are still some areas that may be improved. And your right about wanting good lock up. I don't recommend doing work on the lugs unless you have the means to measure and understand the tolerances required.

What I meant by disconcetor not being engaged is you've already let off the trigger. The disconnector only engages IF the trigger is still being depressed by the finger. Now I know that would be some fast firing, but it's very possible.

Edited December 3, 2012 by poolingmyignorance

[Molotov Cocktail 9]

I would polish the bolt, rails and hammer anyway. Worst case scenario this doesnt fix your issues and you have to enlarge your ports anyway but less friction cant hurt anything

[gunfun 3,931]

True, assuming you do it right. The profile is more important than the polish by a large margin. There are plenty of people who removed metal in the wrong places and caused the bolt to create more work as it turns.

 

I basically do that same analysis and say do the gas first because it is easier, and there are fewer ways for a person of low skills to screw up in a big way. However, there is nothing wrong with doing the bolt profile before gas work. As long as you methodically address one variable at a time, you will get to the result you want.