Saiga Akm VS. All Other

[Spetnaz Soldier 47]

So what does everybody think about the quality of a converted Saiga Ak-47 versus Romania, Egyptian, Yugoslavian, and all other Ak's?

[thebuns1 4,323]

I'll play. Since your asking this question, I take it your thinking of picking up an AK pattern rifle that is not a Saiga? What do you feel the others offer that the Saiga doesnt?

 

Id put a Saiga up agains any of them. I prefer the Russian variant over the others. You get a great product for the price.

[mogunner 240]

You get a brand new gun made out of brand new parts, what's to consider?

[t3mac21 1]

I have two romanian and a converted saiga.

 

 

The quality is higher with a saiga but, I have no problems with my other AK rifles. They're more "correct" and they shoot just as well. The quality of the manufacturing however is much better on the saiga. This doesn't mean a whole lot though, AK's aren't very precise weapons. My saiga shoots better than what they shot at the factory with it, but, it about equal to my other AKs.

 

 

 

Would I say it's higher quality? Yup. Is it the highest quality? Depends. There are a lot of AK's to compare it to, and they all have their ups/downs but, it depends on what you're looking for. It takes some work to make it "period correct", and I'm not a huge fan of the painted finish but, it's absolutely a higher quality rifle than most other "new production" AK style rifles on the market.

[rnemhrd 165]

My first was a AK type rifle was a Saiga 7.62. When looking for a second the prices went up and it was cheaper for a WASR 10/63 new than a fully converted Saiga doing the front end too so I got a hand picked WASR. After some TLC the WASR is nice and smooth, but the Saiga has better fit and finish in the reciever, and bolt carrier area. Thicker dust cover on the Saiga makes it sound solid when racked. Both group the same. WASR was dead on out of the box, Saiga was'nt. I still need a gas block and sight block and cleaning rod to finish the Saiga. If I handed you both and you did'nt know shit you would think the Saiga was better just racking them. If I had to give one up as is I like having the cleaning rod and my Saiga is'nt done yet. Both shoot well, and I trust them.

Edited December 11, 2012 by rnemhrd

[t3mac21 1]

If I handed you both and you did'nt know shit you would think the Saiga was better just racking them.

 

 

Agreed. They do "feel" better out of the box.

 

 

 

There are a lot of quality AK's out there though, pre-ban Chicoms for example.

[Spetnaz Soldier 47]

No i bought a Saiga and i figured they were the best. I was just curious.

[Tool_of_Society 15]

No i bought a Saiga and i figured they were the best. I was just curious.

I wouldn't say best but they certainly are extremely good bang for the buck.

[thebuns1 4,323]

Its hard to go wrong with one.

[mancat 2,368]

Assembly and machining quality/consistency is where the Saiga and VEPR shines over other imported European AKM variants. You're just less likely to encounter assembly errors or poor quality machining on a Saiga. Will the gun look nicer and be less likely to have a mechanical problem - most of the time, but it can still happen.

 

However, even some of the uglier AKs out of Romania, for example, can still run like a top. I have two Romanians that are reliable as a damn tank, and one of them (AES-10B) is my most accurate 7.62x39 rifle out of four that I own. They just aren't as pretty as the Saiga. I have a couple Bulgarian parts kits that are nearly identical to Saiga machining quality - Kalashnikov himself claimed that Bulgarians made the highest quality AKs outside of Russia, though some might disagree (see below).

 

At the heart of the rifle, most European AKM barrels are built using very similar hammer forging machinery, and generally barrel quality seems to be about the same across most European producers. The differences are mostly in who chooses to use chrome lining (Yugoslavia/Serbia generally does not), and how uniformly the chrome is applied.

 

Since you mentioned Yugoslavia... Saigas and VEPRs don't even come close to the quality of Yugoslavian/Serbian AKs. These are probably the finest machined and assembled AKs in the world. Same goes for any other type of military arm out of the Zastava factory when compared to others who manufactured it - Mausers, Tokarev pistols, SKS, etc. Sorry to say it on a Saiga site, but anyone that owns both will agree.

Edited December 2, 2012 by mancat

[richUK 90]

I think its different here in the UK than it is for you guys as my Saiga came into the UK direct from Izhmash already built as an AK-104 and my Romanian AKM came from the Cugir factory complete with all milspec features and high capacity mags (apart from the select fire that is ).I would say that the finish of the Saiga is a bit better than the Romanian, which has more of a used look to it despite being brand new,but i actually like the slightly worn look.The 104 had to be zero'd before it would shoot nicely whereas the AKM shot very well straight out of the box and i haven't had to touch the sights at all on it and despite a very slight cant to the left on the front sight i would say the AKM is a bit more accurate than the 104 with the same ammo, this may be down to the AKM having a longer barrel..With the Saiga it took a good few hundred rounds before the bolt carrier etc bedded in but the AKM was very smooth and slick from the word go.I would stick my neck out and say that the Romanian AKM is probably as close to a Soviet AKM as you can get, especially when fitted with Soviet furniture and a bakelite mag.Whilst i love shooting them both i have found i have been shooting the AKM more..........i just need a Dragunov next to complete the trio!

 

Romanian AKM, Soviet furniture, Izhmash bakelite 30r mag

 

Saiga MK / AK-104, Soviet AKM furniture (dont do black plastic!), Izhmash bakelite 30r mag

 

Little and Large!

[TheDarkHorse 216]

RichUK,

Every time I read one of your posts, I do so in a British accent (silently, in my mind, of course).

I'm not sure why, but I'm very good at entertaining myself.

[richUK 90]

RichUK,

Every time I read one of your posts, I do so in a British accent (silently, in my mind, of course).

I'm not sure why, but I'm very good at entertaining myself.

 

LOL! .........my accent has got a bit of a Welsh twang to it as im very close to the Welsh border.Some of the accents we have here i cant understand!!!, have a lot of Poles at work and they just sound like a record being played backwards!, nice folks though

[mancat 2,368]

Even though you guys don't get SA, it's still pretty frustrating to look at what can be bought direct from Izhmash over there. Maybe the Russian/US export laws will change some day. They seem to get better at finding ways around it, though.

[Spetnaz Soldier 47]

I think its different here in the UK than it is for you guys as my Saiga came into the UK direct from Izhmash already built as an AK-104 and my Romanian AKM came from the Cugir factory complete with all milspec features and high capacity mags (apart from the select fire that is ).I would say that the finish of the Saiga is a bit better than the Romanian, which has more of a used look to it despite being brand new,but i actually like the slightly worn look.The 104 had to be zero'd before it would shoot nicely whereas the AKM shot very well straight out of the box and i haven't had to touch the sights at all on it and despite a very slight cant to the left on the front sight i would say the AKM is a bit more accurate than the 104 with the same ammo, this may be down to the AKM having a longer barrel..With the Saiga it took a good few hundred rounds before the bolt carrier etc bedded in but the AKM was very smooth and slick from the word go.I would stick my neck out and say that the Romanian AKM is probably as close to a Soviet AKM as you can get, especially when fitted with Soviet furniture and a bakelite mag.Whilst i love shooting them both i have found i have been shooting the AKM more..........i just need a Dragunov next to complete the trio!

 

Romanian AKM, Soviet furniture, Izhmash bakelite 30r mag

 

Saiga MK / AK-104, Soviet AKM furniture (dont do black plastic!), Izhmash bakelite 30r mag

 

Little and Large!

Ya but i hear you guys have to have a strait pull ak or something like that. Like no semi-auto.

[richUK 90]

I think its different here in the UK than it is for you guys as my Saiga came into the UK direct from Izhmash already built as an AK-104 and my Romanian AKM came from the Cugir factory complete with all milspec features and high capacity mags (apart from the select fire that is ).I would say that the finish of the Saiga is a bit better than the Romanian, which has more of a used look to it despite being brand new,but i actually like the slightly worn look.The 104 had to be zero'd before it would shoot nicely whereas the AKM shot very well straight out of the box and i haven't had to touch the sights at all on it and despite a very slight cant to the left on the front sight i would say the AKM is a bit more accurate than the 104 with the same ammo, this may be down to the AKM having a longer barrel..With the Saiga it took a good few hundred rounds before the bolt carrier etc bedded in but the AKM was very smooth and slick from the word go.I would stick my neck out and say that the Romanian AKM is probably as close to a Soviet AKM as you can get, especially when fitted with Soviet furniture and a bakelite mag.Whilst i love shooting them both i have found i have been shooting the AKM more..........i just need a Dragunov next to complete the trio!

 

Romanian AKM, Soviet furniture, Izhmash bakelite 30r mag

 

Saiga MK / AK-104, Soviet AKM furniture (dont do black plastic!), Izhmash bakelite 30r mag

 

Little and Large!

Ya but i hear you guys have to have a strait pull ak or something like that. Like no semi-auto.

 

Thats right, but an AK is an AK right?......especially when its 100% Russian (or Romanian,Bulgarian etc).Believe me they dont do a lot to convert them to straight pull!

[Spetnaz Soldier 47]

I know. They completly desecrate all of Mikale Kalashnikov's master piece.

[richUK 90]

But not as much as spelling Mr Kalashnikovs name wrong! .

[thebuns1 4,323]

.

 

Since you mentioned Yugoslavia... Saigas and VEPRs don't even come close to the quality of Yugoslavian/Serbian AKs. These are probably the finest machined and assembled AKs in the world. Same goes for any other type of military arm out of the Zastava factory when compared to others who manufactured it - Mausers, Tokarev pistols, SKS, etc. Sorry to say it on a Saiga site, but anyone that owns both will agree.

 

While I dont own both, I have to disagree. My Vepr 5.45 is of better quality than any of the Yugo AK's Ive seen in my local shop. And he had at least 4 of them the last time I was in there.

[Spetnaz Soldier 47]

Im gona agree with captain hero. VEPR's are great.

[thebuns1 4,323]

Zastava does put out a damn good product though. Not just AK's. I just dont feel that they are better than the rifles Molot are making. I feel a good chunk of it is just preference. I prefer my AK's to have chrome lined bores and chambers. Prolly the only thing that I dont like about the Yugo's. Still a sweet ass rifle though. I should have stated this in my previous post.

[Spetnaz Soldier 47]

Yes agreed about the chrome lining. I wouldnt buy a rifle without a chrome lined or salt bath nitride bore. I have to have something that will last forever and stay accurate.

[nfafan 3]

Relatedly - how does an unconverted 16" RAAC SAIGA compare to a single-stack SA2000M? Worth trading away the SAIGA?

[BigChongus 765]

Saigas are NOT AKMs. They are 100-series AKs. There are several differences between the two.

[rnemhrd 165]

Saigas are NOT AKMs. They are 100-series AKs. There are several differences between the two.

Sorry, edited my post. That reason makes AKMs easier to kind parts for, like bolts and bolt carriers, and there internal parts. I have heard this said as far as Saigas go. If you find a box stock one dirt cheap and have the funds. Grab it and you have all the parts you will need in one nice package.

[mancat 2,368]

.

 

Since you mentioned Yugoslavia... Saigas and VEPRs don't even come close to the quality of Yugoslavian/Serbian AKs. These are probably the finest machined and assembled AKs in the world. Same goes for any other type of military arm out of the Zastava factory when compared to others who manufactured it - Mausers, Tokarev pistols, SKS, etc. Sorry to say it on a Saiga site, but anyone that owns both will agree.

 

While I dont own both, I have to disagree. My Vepr 5.45 is of better quality than any of the Yugo AK's Ive seen in my local shop. And he had at least 4 of them the last time I was in there.

 

Unfortunately there are some problematic Yugos out there built by US builders. Century for the most part did a great job to make affordable rifles from those kits - or at least their contractor did. But take a look at a new factory-made M70/M85/M92, or some of the better domestic builds, and it's a different ball game.

 

The VEPR is probably the best option on the market right now for the average shooter.

 

FWIW I also agree about non-chrome barrels. It's a mystery as to why Yugoslavia preferred not to chrome their barrels. Contrary to popular belief, they had extensive chrome deposits and the appropriate technology. The barrels are still hammer-forged, but they did not stand up well in a civil war where zero maintnance, corrosive anno, and lack of training was common.

 

I still need to re-barrel my Yugo SKS, which was totally trashed when I bought it. I was 18 and had no idea what I was looking at, and still thought AKs (what I really wanted) were illegal.

[thebuns1 4,323]

.

 

Since you mentioned Yugoslavia... Saigas and VEPRs don't even come close to the quality of Yugoslavian/Serbian AKs. These are probably the finest machined and assembled AKs in the world. Same goes for any other type of military arm out of the Zastava factory when compared to others who manufactured it - Mausers, Tokarev pistols, SKS, etc. Sorry to say it on a Saiga site, but anyone that owns both will agree.

 

While I dont own both, I have to disagree. My Vepr 5.45 is of better quality than any of the Yugo AK's Ive seen in my local shop. And he had at least 4 of them the last time I was in there.

 

Unfortunately there are some problematic Yugos out there built by US builders. Century for the most part did a great job to make affordable rifles from those kits - or at least their contractor did. But take a look at a new factory-made M70/M85/M92, or some of the better domestic builds, and it's a different ball game.

 

The VEPR is probably the best option on the market right now for the average shooter.

 

FWIW I also agree about non-chrome barrels. It's a mystery as to why Yugoslavia preferred not to chrome their barrels. Contrary to popular belief, they had extensive chrome deposits and the appropriate technology. The barrels are still hammer-forged, but they did not stand up well in a civil war where zero maintnance, corrosive anno, and lack of training was common.

 

I still need to re-barrel my Yugo SKS, which was totally trashed when I bought it. I was 18 and had no idea what I was looking at, and still thought AKs (what I really wanted) were illegal.

 

Since you pointed it out Mancat, I have seen a few very nice Yugo's, but it just wasnt very consistant. They are a nice rifle and I do want to pick one up, but it will have to wait until I get an RPK project going. Hard to say though as to why they wouldnt hard chrome their bores. Maybe they were more concerned about accuracy. Who knows.

 

But as far as the Vepr's go, I feel the quality is there, its just their overall package is what needs to be upgraded, which we are now starting to see a bit of. Not many people want slant cuts or thumbhole stocks, or even be somewhat limited with the use of traditional handguards. I havent seen one case where Molot has shipped out rifles with canted sights or gas blocks, or anything really of that nature. Im sure it exists, but seems to be very uncommon. Part of why I was shocked when I seen the canted sights show up on some of the Vepr 12's.

 

In all fairness, about the only thing I could compare the Yugo to would prolly be another Yugo, or a Vepr/RPK. Maybe a nice milled gun too. Very few offerings will fall into this category of rifles, and usually price will reflect this. Get some pics up when you get that SKS back up and running in the shape your content with.

[nfafan 3]

You asked, so...

 

My Century built Yugo M70AB2 U/F is my favorite AK. The majority of the gun are original Yugo-quality parts, built with a USA barrel and NDS "RPK" recvr. Whoever built it for Cent did it right, as opposed to the C93 builders...

 

My 2nd favorite is an old, privateer-built 100% matching Polish U/F AKM with original barrel - flyweight compared to the Yugo but each part is visibly well finished and crafted, and usually S/Numbered together. The Radom quality oozes from the parts and NDS makes a great recvr to connect them all together.

 

My SAIGA 7.62x39 - sweet, but I bought it mainly based on price; cheaper than a WASR at the time.

Edited December 16, 2012 by nfafan