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I would restore the trigger group to its original position.

 

That would be prority #1

#2 replace gas plug http://www.saiga-12.com/proddetail.asp?prod=V-Plug or http://www.saiga-12.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Auto-Plug

#3 buy more mags http://www.keepshooting.com/saiga-12-gauge-5rd-magazine.html

#4 replace forearm with RPK style from K-VAR http://www.k-var.com/shop/SG-023.html

#5 Buy TONS of ammo, and have some FUN!!!

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With a brand new S-12, that you have intentions of converting to PG configuration, you will immediately be faced with two problems.

#1. Whether it is under gassed or not, the bolt and carrier will operate much more efficiently if they are properly re-profiled and polished, That is the very first thing I would do to any S-12 for $100. After that, it will run better regardless of PG conversion or not.

#2. Whether the BCG is re-profiled and polished, or not.... if you drop a new FCG in there that was originally made for an AK rifle replacement trigger group (like ALL Tapco G-2, Red Star, TexasAK Trigger, etc...), it is not going to function as good in a Saiga shotgun, as it would in a Saiga or AK rifle. They are made differently, and the bolt & carrier ride lower in the receiver. This causes a lot of extra drag on a standard AK hammer. There are some modified G-2's on the market, that will drop in and fit a Saiga with a BHO. They will work ok in a shotgun, as long as it has plenty of gas to cycle the action. They will not however, work as good, or give you as smooth an action, as a custom modified FCG will. These custom modified versions sold by a few vendors, myself included.... have been re-profiled and polished to have less drag on the bolt carrier, and a smoother, lighter pull.

 

So in short, before you go outfitting the gun with all kinds of mass produced after market parts, it is my opinion that reliability should be the most important thing to be concerned with. Both the BCG and the FCG can be customized to make the gun cycle much more smoothly and efficiently. Either one will make it better, but both work together to make an even greater improvement. This is not just my opinion, it is a proven fact.

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easy on the Acronyms im just getting

With a brand new S-12, that you have intentions of converting to PG configuration, you will immediately be faced with two problems.

#1. Whether it is under gassed or not, the bolt and carrier will operate much more efficiently if they are properly re-profiled and polished, That is the very first thing I would do to any S-12 for $100. After that, it will run better regardless of PG conversion or not.

#2. Whether the BCG is re-profiled and polished, or not.... if you drop a new FCG in there that was originally made for an AK rifle replacement trigger group (like ALL Tapco G-2, Red Star, TexasAK Trigger, etc...), it is not going to function as good in a Saiga shotgun, as it would in a Saiga or AK rifle. They are made differently, and the bolt & carrier ride lower in the receiver. This causes a lot of extra drag on a standard AK hammer. There are some modified G-2's on the market, that will drop in and fit a Saiga with a BHO. They will work ok in a shotgun, as long as it has plenty of gas to cycle the action. They will not however, work as good, or give you as smooth an action, as a custom modified FCG will. These custom modified versions sold by a few vendors, myself included.... have been re-profiled and polished to have less drag on the bolt carrier, and a smoother, lighter pull.

 

So in short, before you go outfitting the gun with all kinds of mass produced after market parts, it is my opinion that reliability should be the most important thing to be concerned with. Both the BCG and the FCG can be customized to make the gun cycle much more smoothly and efficiently. Either one will make it better, but both work together to make an even greater improvement. This is not just my opinion, it is a proven fact.

Easy on the Acronyms im just getting started some i know some i dont Edited by T_fretwell420
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We ARE talking an AK based weapon here... aren't we???

I think polishing is over rated. There are some instances (trigger) were it is worth while, but I am not sold on polishing bolts and carriers. If the gas system is working properly, parts tend to mate over time - making polishing unnecessary. I did have some "issues" with my S12, that went away after replacing the gas plug (MD Arms), and running a hundred or so rounds through it with lubrication. My Molot Vepr 12 on the other hand, ran great out of the box (again with proper lubrication), and performed flawlessly durring last weekend's deer hunting, in which it accounted for three deer.

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We ARE talking an AK based weapon here... aren't we???

I think polishing is over rated. There are some instances (trigger) were it is worth while, but I am not sold on polishing bolts and carriers. If the gas system is working properly, parts tend to mate over time - making polishing unnecessary. I did have some "issues" with my S12, that went away after replacing the gas plug (MD Arms), and running a hundred or so rounds through it with lubrication. My Molot Vepr 12 on the other hand, ran great out of the box (again with proper lubrication), and performed flawlessly durring last weekend's deer hunting, in which it accounted for three deer.

The Saiga-12 is not an AK rifle. Not at all and not even close. When you take parts designed for a rifle and put them in a shotgun, it causes problems.

 

Whether you believe it or not does not matter to me. It's the RE-PROFILING that comes before the POLISHING that makes the world of difference you obviously have never has the opportunity to feel for yourself. Sure any weapon will "break in" some over time, and lots of money spent on ammo. That doesn't make a hill of beans worth of difference, compared to what can be done in one day, by properly relieving the S-12 of excess drag on both the action AND the top round in the mag. This can never be accomplished in a hundred years worth of beating it to death with magnum loads, watching TV and jacking the bolt off, or running the weapon with polishing compounds smeared all over the internals... none of the things some have suggested on this forum, will ever even come close to what a well tuned, re-profiled and polished S-12 feels and functions like...period.

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I would normally say move the trigger back to it's original position..but given the current political climate.....I would buy all the mags and ammo I could afford...That is where it is going to start......eliminating high cap mags and taxing ammo....its just a matter of when. Parts will be around for a while.

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I did not mean to step on your toes here, and I respect your opinion. But the basic design (AK) being converted into a shotgun is not the root of the problem here. The problem was when they had to take a well functioning design (the original conversion that WORKED), and change it to conform with ATFE regulations so they could import it. I know there were some QC issues as well - lack of, or blocked holes in the gas system - but the original, self regulating gas system, does not have the same problems, and the BHO feature eliminated the problem with inserting a fully loaded magazine. After replacing the gas plug, and the initial break-in mentioned earlier, I have had no problems or complaints with my S12.

 

I have some custom rifles with beautifully polished triggers, and used to shoot a revolver carefully polished by Bill Davis back in the days of PPC. So I know what the benefits of polishing the right parts produces. I just feel that on the S12, other than working on the trigger, money is better spent in other areas.

 

With that being said, I would also mention that with the current availability of the Molot Vepr 12, I would just buy one of those, and not mess around with the S12. Dollar for dollar, I feel you are money ahead with the Molot.

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We ARE talking an AK based weapon here... aren't we???

I think polishing is over rated. There are some instances (trigger) were it is worth while, but I am not sold on polishing bolts and carriers. If the gas system is working properly, parts tend to mate over time - making polishing unnecessary. I did have some "issues" with my S12, that went away after replacing the gas plug (MD Arms), and running a hundred or so rounds through it with lubrication. My Molot Vepr 12 on the other hand, ran great out of the box (again with proper lubrication), and performed flawlessly durring last weekend's deer hunting, in which it accounted for three deer.

Like dude said, it's not just polishing, it's profiling.

Look in the magwell as you pull the charger & you'll notice the bolt rotating & extracting. From the factory it's hexigonal and has a huge hump to drag over the shells which press very hard against the bolt, especially with drum mags.

The bolt profile as well as matching the hammer to the carrier really do reduce resistance to keep power in the cycle for better reliability with low recoil loads.

Here's some close-ups of a "decent" happy.png reprofile and an "okay" polish.

 

It can be done by a skilled hobbyist or sent out.

Either way, there's always going to be a slight break in period, because the 30XPA steel is made to self workharden as the gun's used. That's when people say "loosened up". This cannot be avoided because certain areas such as angle where the barrel hood starts bolt rotation, the embutments, and a few other areas do need to self work-harden. It's just how the weapon's designed. If they made all the steel super hard, it'd be brittle, so they went the route they did.

 

Good luck O.P. & welcome to the addiction. 032.gif

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I personally don't see the need for it IF YOUR GAS SYSTEM IS FUNCTIONING AS IT SHOULD. If you are trying to cure a problem by reducing friction, to allow it to get by with deficient gas flow, then have you really cured the problem? I have no problems with ANY loads I put through my S12 or my Vepr 12 because the gas systems are properly functioning.

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I personally don't see the need for it IF YOUR GAS SYSTEM IS FUNCTIONING AS IT SHOULD. If you are trying to cure a problem by reducing friction, to allow it to get by with deficient gas flow, then have you really cured the problem? I have no problems with ANY loads I put through my S12 or my Vepr 12 because the gas systems are properly functioning.

Less resistance means less gas needed to cycle the weakest loads.

Take two properly gassed guns side by side, one with GlassBolt and the other without, and the GlassBolt gun will run lighter loads more reliably, regardless of added weight of vertical chargers or the HD op-rod. I got hundreds of people posting on this very forum that'll attest to that.

Less gas needed to run the same loads means less wear on the parts, and that equals a overall more durable weapon with longer service life because less energy is being violently transmitted through the parts.

The slower the gas enters the system, and the less gas that must enter the system to cycle the same loads, the better for long term durability.

Wear, stress etc, has a cumulative effect over time.

 

That being sadi, to answer the OP's question of;

 

If you had a brand new Saiga 12 and $100 what would you change first.

 

I'd find another ten bucks & buy a cheap buttstock, MD arms Molot Pistol Grip, and single hook Tapco G-2 FCG, and I'd convert the weapon back to the AK configuration.

That's what I'd change FIRST if I only had a hundred bones & a brand new S-12.

http://store.carolin...-RAM-STG/Detail $35

http://store.carolin...LACEMENT/Detail $32

http://store.carolin...OT-STYLE/Detail $13

http://store.carolin...APCO-FCG/Detail $30

 

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I personally don't see the need for it IF YOUR GAS SYSTEM IS FUNCTIONING AS IT SHOULD. If you are trying to cure a problem by reducing friction, to allow it to get by with deficient gas flow, then have you really cured the problem? I have no problems with ANY loads I put through my S12 or my Vepr 12 because the gas systems are properly functioning.

Man just stop, OK.

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You don't need to explain your ideas of reduced wear on the gun due to less gas being put through the action...

I understand your theory, but I don't feel a need for it. Sure, any gun can be "improved" with certain modifications, but the level of "improvement", is in the eye of the beholder.

If the gas system is functioning properly, you are not "over gassing" the gun, so there is not excessive wear. And lubricant applied to the proper places also helps reduce wear and friction.

 

I am NOT putting down your work, or the services you offer! I just feel they are not what I am looking for because my guns do NOT have an issue with the regulation of gas, and function as they were designed to. The original question was what mods would you do FIRST... And I would think you would agree that replacement of the gas plug gives you more control to tune the system to the loads you are using - regardless of the FCG and BCG being re-profiled and polished or not.

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The original question was what mods would you do FIRST... And I would think you would agree that replacement of the gas plug gives you more control to tune the system to the loads you are using - regardless of the FCG and BCG being re-profiled and polished or not.

Absofuckinglutely NOT.

The factory plug is the most efficient in my experience until the weapon's properly tuned.

From my testing, NO gas plug increases reliability on low recoil loads over the factory plug. Pucs on the other hand, I swear by the CSS performance puc.

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The original question was what mods would you do FIRST... And I would think you would agree that replacement of the gas plug gives you more control to tune the system to the loads you are using - regardless of the FCG and BCG being re-profiled and polished or not.

Absofuckinglutely NOT.

The factory plug is the most efficient in my experience until the weapon's properly tuned.

From my testing, NO gas plug increases reliability on low recoil loads over the factory plug. Pucs on the other hand, I swear by the CSS performance puc.

 

I think this is part of the problem. You Are NOT READING WHAT I AM WRITING HERE! Nowhere in my reply did I state that replacing the gas plug would increase reliability, but I stated it would give you more CONTROL to tune the gas system. And if you feel the stock gas plug with two settings is better than having four settings the aftermarket ones offer, then I can see why you are concerned about wear from too much gas cycling through the gun. As I stated before RE-SHAPING PARTS, AND POLISHING PARTS, IS FINE IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO THAT - but ONLY AFTER the gas system is WORKING AS IT SHOULD BE! If you are not addressing the proper volume of gas exiting the barrel into the gas chamber, then you are not fixing the problem - you are just masking the symptoms...

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AAAaaaAAAAAAhahaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

I used more capslock. Therefore I am more convincing. Sadly there is no need for me to add to this thread, so I will put all the credibility I just earned behind pretty much exactly what the second half of post 17 says. Doing the fitting yourself can get a conversion cost way down, especially if you can be happy with a plain US made stock, and reusing the factory trigger guard, &modifying a G2 or similar yourself.

 

If reliability is an issue, my sig line has the order I would (and did ) address that. gas work and profiling have their places and often both have room for improvement.

 

What would M.T.K do??? -- Borrow design elements from several available weapons to create a very good weapon for its time. Also whore his name out to sell vodka, design guns for an oppressive regime that kills and enslaves his people- confidently brag about the untouchable superiority of a design that even his own company has since improved upon -- take credit for new designs that younger engineers developed which incorporate the same improvements pretty much every other platform in the world have adopted. THEN wish he was as cool as JMB.

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