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Saiga 12 vs grizzly ???


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i'm not a grizzly bear, but if i was, i would try to avoid getting shot with saiga shotguns

In my 35 years of handgun hunting, I can tell you without a doubt, short fat bullets (low sectional density) don't penetrate very well in large animals. I think the saboted slugs would do much better

I've always been under the assumption that if you blind a charging animal with buck (or even bird) shot, it will abandon the attack. Eyes are eyes...there are no impenetrable eyes. Then, you can follo

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Well I guess if you google brown bear hunting with 12Ga. you will find what you're looking for. A slug is a slug. It need not matter if a single shot ot a full auto S12 spit the one killing shot out I guess.big_smile.gif I would rather have my S12 though bad_smile.gif Or something like a .308 in a perfect world.If you are hunting why bring a knife to a gun fight. Shotgun slug should work, but I would'nt want a pissed bear giving me the stink eye with a hole in it. I want to be sure I get it done I guess. I hear slugs can glance off a bear skull if you hit one in the head charging you. Soft lead and a hard head. Never been there so I'm not positive and have no plans on testing this out.

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I've always been under the assumption that if you blind a charging animal with buck (or even bird) shot, it will abandon the attack. Eyes are eyes...there are no impenetrable eyes. Then, you can follow up with a kill shot. This is just a theory of mine and not one I'm willing to test!!

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My dad told me when he was stationed in Alaska many years ago that they found three Marines mauled to death with empty M1 rifles. That because the bears are so large you have to hit them in exactly the right spot to kill them. He did say it was a fatal mistake to try and shoot them in the head also. But he said the natives claimed that they hunted them with bolt action .22LR rifles. They said you only get one shot anyway so a semi automatic was not necessary. They stated that they would walk up to the bear and when it raised up they would shoot it up under the jaw and up into there brain killing them instantly. I do not know if this is a BS story they told mainlanders for a joke or what!

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In my 35 years of handgun hunting, I can tell you without a doubt, short fat bullets (low sectional density) don't penetrate very well in large animals. I think the saboted slugs would do much better than a standard Foster style.

 

Tony

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My dad told me when he was stationed in Alaska many years ago that they found three Marines mauled to death with empty M1 rifles. That because the bears are so large you have to hit them in exactly the right spot to kill them. He did say it was a fatal mistake to try and shoot them in the head also. But he said the natives claimed that they hunted them with bolt action .22LR rifles. They said you only get one shot anyway so a semi automatic was not necessary. They stated that they would walk up to the bear and when it raised up they would shoot it up under the jaw and up into there brain killing them instantly. I do not know if this is a BS story they told mainlanders for a joke or what!

 

A study done on the hunting techniques of the Inuit Tribes back in the 60's, showed the 22LR, and the .222 Rem., used to be the cartridges of choice for hunting everything in the extreme northern parts of Alaska. But this was a game of patience - not a quick kill - with a well placed shot, and following the animal on the ice or in the water until it bled out.

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In Alaska 12 ga slugs and 45-70 are popular bear/ moose hunting weapons. Hint, most of the times when people get all close and snuggly with bears is right after they shoot something else. A majority of the Grizzly attacks happen while the hunter is dressing out his game, and his gun is out of reach.

 

There is an old myth that you shouldn't shoot bears in the head, because the bullet will deflect. While this can happen sometime, someone or other crunched the numbers from verifiable bear hunts and attacks and found that the number of times this happened were fairly few, and this was almost always with small caliber. On the flip side there are hundreds of well documented attacks in which there was perfect shot placement through heart and lungs, and the bear kept going long enough to attack everyone before dieing. Bears have an unusual metabolic process that allows their muscles to function without new oxygen. Think of it as being similar to how when we run out of blood sugar, our muscles can scavenge ATP from themselves and keep going, but producing lactic acid leading to soreness. Brown bears have that, plus this extra metabolic process. The upshot is that they can be completely without a circulatory system and run and rampage at full steam for around 13 minutes before dropping.

 

Plenty of bears will die on the first shot, sometimes even with tiny calibers, but only a fool would count on that happening. Bowhunting for Brown Bears at least strikes me as very foolish.

 

For Alaska, I believe my choice of gun would be a very large bore repeating rifle, or an S12 with high power slugs, preferably Hexolit 32.

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Best place to shoot a bear is from a distance.

 

If you happen to be cleaning a kill and one surprises you, leave the kill and back away as quickly as you can without running like prey.

 

Once the bear starts digging into the kill you worked so hard for, drop him in his tracks. 45/70 will get the job done (as will others) with good placement.

 

If a bear raises up on you, shoot him in the balls. That will take him down long enough for you to get a second shot in the head/eyes/mouth.

 

Personal advice from a life long friend that has lived in AK for over 20 years now.

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If a bear raises up on you, shoot him in the balls. That will take him down long enough for you to get a second shot in the head/eyes/mouth.

 

Personal advice from a life long friend that has lived in AK for over 20 years now.

 

Now THAT is where the S12 would reign supreme... A round of buckshot, as a nutshot, would stop just about anything on the planet! 015.gif

But if you come upon a female, especially one protecting it's cub(s), then the nutshot needs to be re-thought... and FAST!

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I'm guessing that would take some on the hunter's part as well.

 

Grizzily's may weigh over 1000lbs, but I doubt it's balls are larger than it's head. And if you were confronted with one, I highly doubt you'd be concentrating on its nads.

 

 

If a bear raises up on you, shoot him in the balls. That will take him down long enough for you to get a second shot in the head/eyes/mouth.

 

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a bear raises up on you, shoot him in the balls. That will take him down long enough for you to get a second shot in the head/eyes/mouth.

 

Personal advice from a life long friend that has lived in AK for over 20 years now.

 

All that proves is that we have idiots here in Alaska, too.

 

I've always been under the assumption that if you blind a charging animal with buck (or even bird) shot, it will abandon the attack. Eyes are eyes...there are no impenetrable eyes. Then, you can follow up with a kill shot. This is just a theory of mine and not one I'm willing to test!!

 

Using any kind of shot against a brown bear is a supremely bad idea. As was noted by GunFun above, they can absorb a lot of damage, and keep going, for a while anyway. Plenty of people have been mauled or killed after having inflicted a fatal wound on a brown/grizzly. The only thing that will give a "certain" stop (at least, as certain as possible when dealing with bears) is to interrupt the central nervous system. The best shot is generally considered to be a heavy chunk of lead right up the nose/snout. Also as noted, if you are a little high, the bullet can be deflected upward due to the thickness and sloping angle of a bear's skull. It's not exactly an easy shot, and I hope I never have to make it.

 

As for carrying an S-12 in bear country, 12 gauge 3" foster type slugs are fairly highly thought of as bear medicine. The only concerns I would have is making sure that your shotgun is totally reliable with your choice of ammo. I generally prefer to carry my .450 Marlin guide gun because it is smaller, lighter, and I think that the big bore rifles are better stoppers, but I have also carried my S-12 in bear country and not felt poorly armed. I use just the plain 3" Remington sluggers, but the Brenneke slugs are very highly thought of here as well, maybe more so.

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I'd probably go for Remington Copper Solid sabot slugs. Although this would require a rifled Saiga 12 or Vepr, which is a rather rare bird, or more likely, just some other rifled slug shotgun. I'd probably want a gas operated autoloader and not a pump, and not an inertia locked Benelli either to avoid any chance of short-stroking, or if I have to fire it pinned up somewhere where I don't get enough recoil travel for it to cycle reliably. And an auto has an advantage, if God forbid, I had to use it one handed for some reason, like the 1% chance I could get another shot off mid-mauling.

 

I would also want a Trijicon SRS. The wide 38mm FOV and short body tube gives you good target awareness, and the light-pipe/tritium dot is important because you have no time to futz with a switch or knob. Although I know you could probably leave an Aimpoint on for months/years at a time etc. too.

 

WIth the Rem Copper Solid sabot slug, you get the large diameter .62 or so, still bigger than any common centerfire rifle, and they have better sectional density than a traditional lead slug. The hollow point petals will unfold, but the remainder of the slug will "keep on truckin". The hardness of the copper should stand up better to any bone in the way too. The ones I find in my club's berms when scouting for range lead are nasty on the tip, but the rest of it is surprisingly pristine, and this is even after going into a few feet of dry clay, and busting some limestone rocks/gravel along the way.

 

Big hole AND a deep hole.

Edited by AJ Dual
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Bear vs MD20 = Dead bear

 

In any instance where you would be justified in shooting a bear in self defense, you will not have the opportunity to use up the entire 5 round factory mag, let alone a 20 round drum. So, the drum is just more bulk and dead weight. The two most important characteristics of an anti-bear gun are that 1) it has to be chambered in a cartridge with enough power to do the job, and 2) you need to have it in your hands when you need it. You will not have time to retrieve it from where you set it down, and you may not even have time to un-sling it, depending on how you have it slung. I would not want to try carrying an S-12 with attached MD-20 around for hours at a time. I would inevitably set it down in order to perform some task. With the 5 rounder, it's not so bad, but still inferior to my Marlin.

 

Interesting read here.

 

That's a really good article, and I can only find a couple of faults in it. First, he tries to say that brown bears are a sub-species of grizzly. Not so; they are the same animal. The reason the coastal browns get so large up here is a high protien diet; they spend the latter half of summer through fall gorging on salmon. Second, I think he underestimates the performance of 12 gauge slugs compared to heavy rifle calibers. The slugs are definitely inferior, but I don't think the difference is as huge as he makes it out to be. The biggest advantage of a rifle is that it can be smaller and lighter, therefore you are more likely to have it on you when you need it.

 

The copper solid sabots are designed for hunting deer. I would advise forgetting these or other novelty rounds and just stick with plain 3" magnum, full diameter slugs. Likewise optics. Iron sights are the rule for bear guns up here. The closer to the bore, the better. Remember that you are going to be using it in a distance more likely to be measured in feet than in yards. Even a simple bead front sight as on a regular shotgun will do, as long as you will do.

Edited by Netpackrat
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This is my idea of bear protection:

 

marlite2.jpg

 

That's a Marlin 1895M in .450 Marlin with most of the Alaska mods, including big loop lever, ghost ring rear sight w/firesight front, Decelerator pad, trigger job, and a TLR-1 light. The light is worth its weight in gold, the other mods are just really nice to have.

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I have an 1895 Marlin guide gun with a nice Sorbothane recoil pad in 45/70 we use for hogs here in PA. I load 350gr cast solids @ ~2000fps. (High pressure 45/70 load.) I forget what book I got the load out of, but it's rated for the Marlin. Nasty, nasty load. Kicks like a bitch. Sounds like a 30.06. Excellent penetration on hogs.

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