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Saiga 12 vs grizzly ???


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i'm not a grizzly bear, but if i was, i would try to avoid getting shot with saiga shotguns

In my 35 years of handgun hunting, I can tell you without a doubt, short fat bullets (low sectional density) don't penetrate very well in large animals. I think the saboted slugs would do much better

I've always been under the assumption that if you blind a charging animal with buck (or even bird) shot, it will abandon the attack. Eyes are eyes...there are no impenetrable eyes. Then, you can follo

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Gunfun mentions the Hexolit32. Here is a vid showing what this round can do;

 

http://youtu.be/Kiwq95oT0zQ

 

Admittedly this information is from DDupleks so as for any product info provided by a manufacturer it should be taken with at least a grain of salt. The product page is here;

 

http://ddupleks.com/...hexolit-32.html

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Gunfun mentions the Hexolit32. Here is a vid showing what this round can do;

 

http://youtu.be/Kiwq95oT0zQ

 

Admittedly this information is from DDupleks so as for any product info provided by a manufacturer it should be taken with at least a grain of salt. The product page is here;

 

http://ddupleks.com/...hexolit-32.html

skip to 1:47 if you want to see them in ballistics gel. Gives me the chills. I think it would be a bad day for the reciever.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJGh_IoSq_Y I may have to get sum... Edited by rnemhrd
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Yep, and on the DDupleks site those same guys shoot a block of clay. Instead of snapping back like the gel does it stays where it was when the expansion stopped. I'd never use these to defend myself from members of my own species, it could be a problem legally but against a so called "Apex Predator" it seems it would get the job done.

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There used to be a bunch of videos from private hunters in comblock countries and I think Germany of bear and boar hunting with hexolit that were not done by the company. They were dramatic. I can't find them on youtube anymore, because the search logic pushes sponsored and popular videos to the top no matter how specific my searches are. In most of them, big hogs dropped fast and squired guts back out of the entrance wound.

 

Re: the chuck hawks article- That's all true, but a big point is the 12 gauge slug does work. Handy if you are hunting something else with shot to be able to change mags and unload.

 

Guide guns are a great choice, and from the beginning of this thread, I was trying to remember the name of a company in alaska that makes custom big bore guide guns for bush pilots. They are 16" barrell, stainless, and with weight removed wherever possible. Many of them have removable stocks for storage. A bunch of them had walrus ivory inlays and scrimshaw and engraving, but you could buy purely practical versions too.

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Use these. I dont think the bear will be back for more. They run 3.50 a shot though.

http://brennekeusa.c...arrier-pen.html

 

Interesting "typo" on that page;

 

Weight: 1 3/8 oz.

Game: Law Enforcement

Barrel: Rifled or smoothbore

Chokes: all

Range: 100 yards +

 

I have a few boxes of these around, specs are not quite up to the Maximum Barrier Penetration Magnum - 955FPS@100 yards vs 998, 1,219ft/lbs@100 yards vs 1,298....

 

post-41803-0-59853900-1355003862.jpg

Edited by Squishy
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But the black magic's are 3" shells. The barrier penetration's are 2-3/4. Not that it means much though. Ive tested the SF short magnums on shit and the results were impressive to say the least. These newer max barrriers should be a step up for double the price.

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But the black magic's are 3" shells. The barrier penetration's are 2-3/4. Not that it means much though. Ive tested the SF short magnums on shit and the results were impressive to say the least. These newer max barrriers should be a step up for double the price.

 

Yep, I hadn't noticed. Shorter shell, better performance...must be why they aren't seen around any more.

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That looks like the same sort, but I remember much higher trim options. I wonder if that was a customiser, or a factory custom I am recalling.

 

Either way, I think I am in the love 'em category other than price.

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AK Dept F&G guys I talked to use pumps with Brenneke Black Magic Magnums. I have a case of them from when I lived up there. I have and will bet my life on them. I wouldn't use anything less (ie buckshot or birdshot). Like gunfun said, they can run without O2 for an extended period of time. Ideally you want to break the shoulder blade to incapacitate it. If you want more info, go kick the bears over at AK Outdoor Forums

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5412338.jpg

 

Guy on the pic is writing that the bear was taken during the night hunting for the boar with the Saga-12 (680 mm - 26,7" barrel) and night vision optic Dedal-180 at 50 yards with one shot. In the morning guy found the dead bear 7 yards from the point he was shot with the whole in the heart. Bear weight is 190 kg (418 lbs 14 oz).

 

And some more pic of bear hunting smile.png

 

2723683.jpg

 

 

1495495.gif

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Edited by PapaZorro
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... I was trying to remember the name of a company in alaska that makes custom big bore guide guns for bush pilots.

 

www.wildwestguns.com

 

Love them or hate them, they do make an interesting lineup of guns.

 

hate 'em... not had good experiences with them personally. But their takedown 45/70 is a HUGE success up here.

 

Most of the hunters and a few guides I know up here prefer a 45/70 for bear protection, but nothing beats being proactive. Lots of noise, staying out of dense underbrush, etc. I got my S12 with the idea of bear protection in mind, but I'm not doing it while hunting, as lugging all my hunting hear, rifle AND a S12 would be too much. But for ventures to the cabin and such, yeah, I'll take my S12 with me. She's reliable (HUGE must!) and shoots slugs quite well and accurately enough. I've settled on the Hexolit32 myself... seems pretty damn awesome with the stats. Preferably I'll never have to tell it from experience. BTW, the MD20 is too damn big to lug, so I use my ProMag 12rd drum. Never had an issue with it and it's a bit smaller to carry with. And, if I can't stop something in 12 rnds with the Hexolit32 I doubt a few more rounds will help, as fast as these bastards can move.

 

Little info on bear interaction - I was at a gun show, and stopped at a booth run by a former Alaska Fish and Game officer, that was selling reloads. He had a bunch of .44mag loads I was looking at (carry one hunting) and there was a single bullet on the table. It was a Barnes 265gr solid. He told me to look at it, so I picked it up and examined it. It had a bunch of nicks and scratches on it, like it had been thrown against a wall or something. After I told him that, he told me that was a round he fired on the job, at a charging Grizz (Grizz and Brownies are essentially the same, just depends on if they are coastal or inland bear) The round hit the bear in the eye, it traveled thru the skull, exited out the back of the head, re-entered at the shoulder, traversed along the spine, broke a few ribs, and lodged basically in its ass. He managed to fire off a total of 3 rounds, from the time it charged to the time it dropped at his feet, a total of nearly 35 yards (it burst out of brush, defending a moose kill). the other 2 rounds hit but did no damage, one was a forehead shot and the other was in the shoulder which broke the shoulder but little else. I saw the photos of the bear, and he told me he needed new underwear. Said that after that extremely lucky shot, he should have gone to Vegas and played the slots.

I also bought a box of his loads...

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Cool story. I bet he carries something bigger than .44 now!

 

One point that caught my attention was hexolit in the Promag 12. Hexolit will not fit in MD 20, so it seems that promag 12 can handle somewhat longer shells. Have you verified reliable cycling with that load?

 

What were your bad experiences with the Wild West guns aside from being bit in the wallet?

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Cool story. I bet he carries something bigger than .44 now!

 

One point that caught my attention was hexolit in the Promag 12. Hexolit will not fit in MD 20, so it seems that promag 12 can handle somewhat longer shells. Have you verified reliable cycling with that load?

 

What were your bad experiences with the Wild West guns aside from being bit in the wallet?

 

You know, you're right. I tried the Hexolit and they did not work. They only worked in a stick mag, and I didn't want to carry one. I got some Brenneke, but not the black magic - didn't find those locally. I think they were a 'military tactical' slug... when I get home from work I'll see if I can remember to go look.

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I'm in the thriving metropolis of Anchorage.. sadly enough. But unless you cruise the shops almost daily, it's hard to find the good stuff. I hear 'We sold out of those yesterday' all the damn time!! At least I scored a case of Federal 00buck, and not the low recoil stuff, recently. And the Ammo Can has a regular supply of surplus and production run cases of .223, .308 and 7.62 stuff. And with Cabelas finally opening up here, maybe there will be some more variety. But the next time I head to Homer I'll look around and see if I can find the Black Magic's tho. Gotta stop in Soldotna for a beer growler fill up anyways!

 

GunFun, in regards to the question on Wild West Guns, it's mostly related to a few instances I've been in looking for info. One was later in the day, but still in open hours, I walked in and was almost immediately told they couldn't help me as they were starting to film. Seems they got their own reality show (insert rolling eyes here). They were even 'advertising' on the Outdoor Forums, looking for 'colorful characters' or 'interesting gun work' for a discount if you agreed to having it filmed. But a regular joe walks in looking for something, and they can't help you as filming is more important. (Then change your normal hours and turn the damn OPEN sign off)

 

Another was I went to talk to them about NFA Class 3 stuff, as they had a deal set up with a local attorney for setting up trusts. Special pricing deal if you bought the items from them. But I went round and round with one of the guys about how to go about doing it, when you could get the items, and finally walked out and paid full price with a different attorney. I've decided I'm not going back - I'm not the only one that has had issues, but sadly the forum policy at the Outdoors forum, is no negative postings or comments on businesses, ESPECIALLY is the business is a sponsor on the site. Ever so often a thread will pop up with issues about them or other stores) and within a short time it's deleted. Me personally, I think freedom of speech should prevail as I want to know if someone is going to screw me.

 

What sucks is, years ago, Wild West re-worked my .338 with a new trigger, shortened the barrel then pinned on a muzzle break, and some other stuff and did a great job. I just think that now they have made a fancy name for themselves, they got too big for their britches. But luckily there are plenty of other shops happy to give me the service I want.

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GunFun, in regards to the question on Wild West Guns, it's mostly related to a few instances I've been in looking for info. One was later in the day, but still in open hours, I walked in and was almost immediately told they couldn't help me as they were starting to film. Seems they got their own reality show (insert rolling eyes here). They were even 'advertising' on the Outdoor Forums, looking for 'colorful characters' or 'interesting gun work' for a discount if you agreed to having it filmed. But a regular joe walks in looking for something, and they can't help you as filming is more important. (Then change your normal hours and turn the damn OPEN sign off)

 

They were dicks long before they had a TV show. They did most of the work on my Marlin back in 2001, but after our last experience with them, they will never touch another one of my rifles again. My brother dropped both of our Marlins off for work; his for most of the mods that mine has, and mine to have the front sight hood (that they installed) pinned in place, because it kept falling off. My brother's rifle was returned to him with a huge screwdriver scratch down the side of the receiver, that he didn't notice until he got it home. Mine, which was ONLY dropped off to have the front sight reworked under warranty, had the rear sights re-adjusted so it was no longer even on the paper at 50 yards (would have caused me to miss high), and they fucked with the tension adjustment for the stupid cross-bolt unsafety that Marlin insists on putting on their leverguns now.

 

I personally know a guy who got chewed up by a bear because this device was on, and he got a click instead of a bang. He had grabbed a client's rifle in an emergency because it was the closest one, and he didn't realize that the new Marlins have this device. So, I lock mine out to avoid this. You can do that by putting it in the "fire" position; next remove the buttstock, and tighten the allen head "tension adjustment" screw down all the way. The assholes at WWG took it upon themselves to remove my buttstock, loosen this screw, AND the prick filled the allen head with some kind of hardening goop to try to keep me from fixing it, but I caught it in time and dug it all out before it could harden.

 

but sadly the forum policy at the Outdoors forum, is no negative postings or comments on businesses, ESPECIALLY is the business is a sponsor on the site. Ever so often a thread will pop up with issues about them or other stores) and within a short time it's deleted. Me personally, I think freedom of speech should prevail as I want to know if someone is going to screw me.

 

I think I am probably still banned from that worthless forum for reasons to do with that, plus winning an argument with one of the moderators over some legal issue where everybody was giving out incorrect information to some guy who had asked a question. But, since the moderators there win arguments by banning users and deleting posts, you won't find anything there but the wrong info if you look up that thread now.

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Since this thread has strayed a bit it looks like this might be a good time to ask if anyone can recommend a good gunsmith in Alaska who does custom work on S-12's? I heard Mat-Su Tactical does but I can not confirm or deny...

 

Great topic here, Grizzly vs S-12's. I'm interested in people posting more pictures and stories of any large game taken with the saiga or vepr. It's not a topic we hear too much of.

Edited by HighPlainsDrifter
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Most recent Wild West Guns story; A guy brought in a SW 500 to the shop I work at looking for an authorized SW service center. WWG had told him they were an authorized SW service center (a lie). As a result of the action job they performed, the hammer somehow broke loose and was dangling like a key chain from the gun after one shot.

 

The first time I walked into WWG, the salesman asked me what I needed. I said I was just looking at the moment, to which he responded; "well why am I wasting my time with you then?". Anyone who has been in WWG knows exactly who I'm talking about.

 

I have many similar stories regarding WWG in between these. Horrible shop. I don't understand how they are still in business as I've only talked to one person with anything positive at all to say about them in the four years I've been in Anchorage.

 

As for bears, Brenneke Black Magics are good to go. That's what fish and game uses here. I carry a 10mm if I'm hiking well traveled trails, as the likelihood of needing it is pretty low, but it will still work if I can hit it in the nose. But if I'm out somewhere where I may be the first on the trail that day, I take my Benelli M4 with Brennekes. I would feel perfectly comfortable with my Saiga, I just like the lower profile of the M4 for hiking. Brown bears are definitely tough, but they're not invincible. I've talked to a guy (credible) who successfully killed a charging brown bear with a Glock 31 (.357 SIG). Also, don't discount bear spray. If the bear really want's to eat you, it'll just be seasoning, so have a gun to back it up, but actual fatal bear attacks are incredibly rare given how many people walk by them every day in the summer up here. 95% of the time they can be convinced by a little pepper in the eye to move along.

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The first time I walked into WWG, the salesman asked me what I needed. I said I was just looking at the moment, to which he responded; "well why am I wasting my time with you then?". Anyone who has been in WWG knows exactly who I'm talking about.

 

There can be a variety of reasons why this kind of indifference, apathy and "assholishness" (New word alert!) occurs but unless you're the owner of the business and aren't aware of it, who cares why? From the stories I've read here about WWG I'd say there's a great opportunity in Anchorage for a gun store owned and managed by someone who "gets it".

 

I tend to be fiercely loyal to those who do right by me and hostile to those who act like they're doing me a favor by taking my money in return for goods and services. I might have looked that mook in the eye and said, "For the same reason you've been mentally undressing me since I walked in the door"...at which point he'd ask me to leave the store and then I'd say "FU, I was leaving anyway...".

 

I usually grit my teeth and say nothing or trouble ensues....

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I would carry my saiga 12 and not really be to worried but only with the factory 5 rounder or a 8 if I ever get one. But I would rather have my 1895 with my hand loads. 525 grain piledriver hard cast with a ridiculous amount of h322 under it. Proven ELEPHANT LOAD. Same load has taken all crazy game in africa including the big 5 so hell with a bear. Havent found anything that can stop it yet. Even factory stuff from garret have done it.There are people who do better work then wwg for cheaper so to hell with them too. Any of you 45-70s not a part of team 45-70 should come over and join us on the marlin owners forum lots of good info and acess to better people then wwg. And 450 marlin < 45-70

Edited by kindapointless
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and join us on the marlin owners forum lots of good info and acess to better people then wwg

 

No thanks. I was a founding member over there when Marlin discontinued their board. I never go over there anymore; the forum is populated with pricks who would rather berate other members over politics than talk about Marlins.

 

And 450 marlin < 45-70

 

Guess again. They are both capable of throwing the exact same bullets at the exact same speeds. And when you buy .450 ammo, none of it is downloaded to prevent blowing up blackpowder era firearms. I have used both, and I also find the belted .450 case to be a little easier when loading and unloading through the loading port on the Marlin. Otherwise, there isn't a whole lot to choose between them.

Edited by Netpackrat
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I am sorry we lost you because of the tards that do seem to be everywhere anymore. That is why I try to bring new blood in whenever I can. If you think the marlin forums are bad I was a long time member of the shotgun world forums which now seem to be populated by the largest amount of retarded assholes I have ever seen on the interwebs. Its sad really that a good site with lots of good info is so easily ruined by some self pretentious pricks in thier moms basement. As to 45-70 being better well no offense but the bullets from my number 1 seem to move a lil faster then any 450 loading but to be reasonable there is no number 1 in 450 so there is no real valid comparison. Case capacity is bigger on 45-70 by like 2 grains but not a huge difference. Ends up being a ford chevy debate and I know it is. I havent bought factory 450 or 45-70 in years and I agree the 450 runs through the dies nicer. If you dont reload 450 is the better choice but if you do the 45-70 can move most key word most projectiles 100fps faster as by the horandy book and by beartooth bullets. 100 fps isnt any reason to get one over the other though (I have both). Chucking lead out the number 1 the 450 isnt even in the race though but then again neither is my shoulder after a few rounds. Just to get your goat you know remlin killed the 450 marlin last year and 45-70 is still going after 100 and some years right? ;)

Edited by kindapointless
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As to 45-70 being better well no offense but the bullets from my number 1 seem to move a lil faster then any 450 loading but to be reasonable there is no number 1 in 450 so there is no real valid comparison.

 

You have to compare the two in equal rifles. A single shot thumper would be entirely useless to me, so I'm not really interested in what .45-70 can do out of it. Chamber it in .450 and you'd see the exact same result.

 

Case capacity is bigger on 45-70 by like 2 grains but not a huge difference.

 

And the .450 gets to run at slightly higher pressure than the .45-70 in the 1895, due to the slightly thicker case web. So it ends up equalling out.

 

Just to get your goat you know remlin killed the 450 marlin last year and 45-70 is still going after 100 and some years right? wink.png

 

That doesn't surprise me because Marlin was always stupid when it came to marketing the .450. They would only offer it in fancy blued rifles with nice walnut stocks, and the people who want rifles like that want the .45-70 because of the nostalgia. They should have offered it primarily in stainless guns with synthetic stocks. They would have sold more of them that way. The market for the .450 is the guy who needs a thumper rifle strictly as a defensive or hunting tool, and wants to have full power loadings in the regular factory ammo without having to handload or buy the more expensive semi-custom ammunition. They totally ignored that market, and insisted that he buy fancier rifles that were less suited to being dragged around in rough conditions.

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